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Made in ca
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So Ultramarines and successors got Scions of Guilliman that enhances to Tactical Doctrine, White Scars got Devastating Charge that enhances the Assault Doctrine, so my question is what do people think the other space marine supplements will give the other first founding chapter/the other two?

I am not sure what the rules will be but I can guess the doctrine they will enhance:

Imperial Fist: Devastator
Raven Guard: Tactical (confirmed)
Salamanders: tactical
Iron Hands: Devastator (confirmed)
Black Templar: Assault
Crimson Fist: Not Sure, maybe Tactical

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/10 16:49:03


 
   
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Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, etc.. don't get the current doctrines to begin with. Presumably, they get something entirely different to substitute both regular doctrines and enhanced doctrines if they were to get a new book before 9th edition (Grey Knights getting a new book has apparently been confirmed).

Imperial Fist is probably bolt-weapon related, no devastator.
Salamanders is probably flamer/melta weapon related (e.g. extra damage on those during tactical?), not devastator.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/25 07:51:35


 
   
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I can see why the OP would think the Scions (?) rules in the other supplements would revolve around the Doctrine system, given the two examples we have so far do.

You might be right, SSU, that the bonuses that IF and Sallies get may be linked to certain types of weapons, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are still tied to one of the three Doctrines - though, if so, you'd think two restrictions would make the bonus they get bigger.

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If there are 6 supplements, could they just do 2 supplements focused on assault doctrine, 2 supplements focused on tactical doctrine and 2 supplements focused on devastator doctrine ?

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No. Because the Imperial Fist book almost certainly has multiple. Even if Imperial and Crimson Fist share the same one, I’d be very strange if Black Templar don’t have a separate, assault-based one.
   
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Sunny Side Up wrote:
No. Because the Imperial Fist book almost certainly has multiple. Even if Imperial and Crimson Fist share the same one, I’d be very strange if Black Templar don’t have a separate, assault-based one.

Some unsubstantiated claims have been made that Black Templars might be not in the IF book and might be a WD instead. (Unhealthy levels of salt recommended for above roumers)

However if thats true it does feel like it opens up IF CF to share the same scions ability, as it would be weird for a scions of dorn ability to not be consistent across chapter's.
   
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 Dysartes wrote:

You might be right, SSU, that the bonuses that IF and Sallies get may be linked to certain types of weapons, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are still tied to one of the three Doctrines - though, if so, you'd think two restrictions would make the bonus they get bigger.


Sure. Just saying if Salamanders get flamer/Melta buffs and IF get a Bolter buff, they’ll likely be tied to the tactical doctrine, which is the doctrine helping those weapons to begin with.

That said, there, could be weird cross-synergy stuff. The Ultramarine one buffs heavy weapons during tactical, so maybe the IF one could buff Rapid Fire Bolters during the Devastator Doctrine or something along those lines..
   
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I'd honestly like to see BT have unique Doctrines to emphasise the fact that they're not even a little Codex-adherent. It'd be an excellent opportunity to bring back Vows as a mechanic.

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Ice_can wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
No. Because the Imperial Fist book almost certainly has multiple. Even if Imperial and Crimson Fist share the same one, I’d be very strange if Black Templar don’t have a separate, assault-based one.

Some unsubstantiated claims have been made that Black Templars might be not in the IF book and might be a WD instead. (Unhealthy levels of salt recommended for above roumers)

However if thats true it does feel like it opens up IF CF to share the same scions ability, as it would be weird for a scions of dorn ability to not be consistent across chapter's.


The rumours I've heard suggest Black Templars will receive their rules in a Vigilus style campaign book released alongside a new box set of Templars vs Orks.

Which means one could definitely see both IF and CF running the same doctrine bonus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/25 13:19:47


 
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

I am hoping that Crimson Fists have a different Scions ability than the Imperial Fists. It would serve to justify their own Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, etc. more that way. Hopefully something that plays to their usage of guerrilla tactics for the past few centuries since Rynn's World. They are supposed to be much more flexible when it comes to tactics than their Imperial Fists brethren. That leads me to believe they will have a Tactical Doctrine bonus rather than the likely Devastator Doctrine bonus for Imperial Fists (who specialize in using heavy weapons and big tanks mounted with even more heavy weapons).

My bet is that Imperial Fists might get something like increased range for Heavy Weapons in the Devastator Doctrine (fluffed that they had already been set up and ready to shoot long before the enemy arrived). Probably only if they stay still. Though in 6e/7e, they had Tank Hunters on their Devastator Squads. Perhaps that might come into play instead.

Salamanders are likely to get a bonus during the Tactical Doctrine. Most of their go-to weapons are Assault, which is boosted in the Tactical Doctrine. So maybe a bonus to the number of shots on Flamer weapons (maybe roll 2d6 drop the lower number?) and some other bonus to Melta weapons during the Tactical Doctrine. It would still affect Heavy Flamers and Multi-Meltas. I don't really see a reason they should get a bonus during the Devastator Doctrine. Maybe it could be an Assault Doctrine bonus to Flamers and Melta weapons?

Iron Hands are an enigma. I lean toward Devastator. But you never know, it could just as easily bet either of the other ones.

Raven Guard I actually want to have be Devastator, not Assault. They are supposed to be the Snipers and sneaky dudes. They aren't a rapid assault army, that is White Scars. Maybe something like their -1 to hit being active if they are in the open during the Devastator Doctrine.

Black Templars should be Assault Doctrine boosted. Not sure how. Maybe they will get a bonus to hit when they charge/were charged/heroically intervene when in the Assault Doctrine. That would make them mad killy. Though it could be something crazy like Pile In Twice (they are basically Loyalist Khorne Berserkers...).


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Made in ca
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Spoiler:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am hoping that Crimson Fists have a different Scions ability than the Imperial Fists. It would serve to justify their own Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, etc. more that way. Hopefully something that plays to their usage of guerrilla tactics for the past few centuries since Rynn's World. They are supposed to be much more flexible when it comes to tactics than their Imperial Fists brethren. That leads me to believe they will have a Tactical Doctrine bonus rather than the likely Devastator Doctrine bonus for Imperial Fists (who specialize in using heavy weapons and big tanks mounted with even more heavy weapons).

My bet is that Imperial Fists might get something like increased range for Heavy Weapons in the Devastator Doctrine (fluffed that they had already been set up and ready to shoot long before the enemy arrived). Probably only if they stay still. Though in 6e/7e, they had Tank Hunters on their Devastator Squads. Perhaps that might come into play instead.

Salamanders are likely to get a bonus during the Tactical Doctrine. Most of their go-to weapons are Assault, which is boosted in the Tactical Doctrine. So maybe a bonus to the number of shots on Flamer weapons (maybe roll 2d6 drop the lower number?) and some other bonus to Melta weapons during the Tactical Doctrine. It would still affect Heavy Flamers and Multi-Meltas. I don't really see a reason they should get a bonus during the Devastator Doctrine. Maybe it could be an Assault Doctrine bonus to Flamers and Melta weapons?

Iron Hands are an enigma. I lean toward Devastator. But you never know, it could just as easily bet either of the other ones.

Raven Guard I actually want to have be Devastator, not Assault. They are supposed to be the Snipers and sneaky dudes. They aren't a rapid assault army, that is White Scars. Maybe something like their -1 to hit being active if they are in the open during the Devastator Doctrine.

Black Templars should be Assault Doctrine boosted. Not sure how. Maybe they will get a bonus to hit when they charge/were charged/heroically intervene when in the Assault Doctrine. That would make them mad killy. Though it could be something crazy like Pile In Twice (they are basically Loyalist Khorne Berserkers...).


I also hope Crimson Fist get their own ability, even if still in the Imp Fist book. And they specialize in guerilla tactics then tactical doctrine makes sence.
I like the idea of Imp Fists getting extra range in devastator, they are the seige experts.
Both the Salamanders and Iron Fists can fit in either dev or tact but i guess tactical would make more sense for meltas and flamers, maybe a +1 to wound for them in tactical. If they are tactical I feel Iron Hands then should be devastator maybe something to enhance vehicles in that doctrine.
The raven guard is really more of an assault then sniper army to me as the focus, according to the codex, on assault squads, land speeders and Inceptors though they do have a lot of Vanguard marines which does include Reavers so assault makes more sense to me.
I really like the idea of Black Templars getting to fight twice as they are the most zealous of the marines and their lack of psykers does make them like the imperial version of World Eaters.
   
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Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are reported by FLG to be what they believe will be the two strongest and most popular. For this reason I am going to bank on a 5+++ FNP available to the Iron Hands as that for sure would put them in the top dog spot through sheer durability. However I also have some faith such a super strong rule on them might be filtered out in testing so maybe their bonus will have to do with their typically slow and strong advance. It could honestly just be the ultramarine version just changed to devastator doctrine.

Imperial Fists I am predicting something like if they do not move they count as being in cover while in the devastator doctrine.

 
   
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I like the idea of Imp Fists getting extra range in devastator, they are the seige experts.

That seems super weak and redundant. Most heavy weapons (I know, not all) have 36/48 range. What would an extra 6" (for example) do for them?
Only Vindicators and some niche weapons (onslaught Gatling cannon, incendium cannon) would really benefit from it.
I hope they don't go with that.
   
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DanielFM wrote:

I like the idea of Imp Fists getting extra range in devastator, they are the seige experts.

That seems super weak and redundant. Most heavy weapons (I know, not all) have 36/48 range. What would an extra 6" (for example) do for them?
Only Vindicators and some niche weapons (onslaught Gatling cannon, incendium cannon) would really benefit from it.
I hope they don't go with that.


It doesn't have to be just for heavy weapons. The Ultramarines ability works with all kinds of weapons, yes it is most clrarly meant to work for RF bolt weapons to get bolter discipline but it still works well with heavy weapons. It could be that all weapons get extra range in devastator doctrine, it would just be heavy and grenade that get the +1 to AP. To use your example they could have 30" bolters, 36" bolt rifles, 14" flamers, etc.
   
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DanielFM wrote:

I like the idea of Imp Fists getting extra range in devastator, they are the seige experts.

That seems super weak and redundant. Most heavy weapons (I know, not all) have 36/48 range. What would an extra 6" (for example) do for them?
Only Vindicators and some niche weapons (onslaught Gatling cannon, incendium cannon) would really benefit from it.
I hope they don't go with that.

I really wouldn't get over excited about what some of these supplements are going to go hand out as their scions like ability, as a number of the base chapter tactics on those chapters are considered to be far better than the Ultramarines trait, without their scions ability and a named charictor or two they wouldn't be a go to chapter.
Iron hands has already been stated as having their scions equivalent linked to devestator and being the better of the two, IF have the ignore cover, I could see them getting ignore -1 to hit in dev doctrine as it's apparently not great but really could shake up the meta, and -1 to hit is very current meta.

Iron hands are I'm going to bet a defence buff in devistator, as they are apparently able to take a beating. Currently marines still die codex 1.0 quick, they just hit harder.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/25 20:31:21


 
   
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Salamanders should be either Tac or Assault and I hope they get the +"? to flame/melta and they're always in MM range. Maybe when rolling for damage on flame/melta, a roll of 1-2 is automatically 3 damage min. On the defense side maybe reroll failed saves to go with the -1 to the AP-1.

Iron Hands should get bonuses for damage from vehicle weapons and probably ability to go back to dev.

Not quite sure how the others will go.
   
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It doesn't have to be just for heavy weapons. The Ultramarines ability works with all kinds of weapons, yes it is most clrarly meant to work for RF bolt weapons to get bolter discipline but it still works well with heavy weapons. It could be that all weapons get extra range in devastator doctrine, it would just be heavy and grenade that get the +1 to AP. To use your example they could have 30" bolters, 36" bolt rifles, 14" flamers, etc.


You are right! For bolt weapons it would be very useful.


IF have the ignore cover, I could see them getting ignore -1 to hit in dev doctrine as it's apparently not great but really could shake up the meta, and -1 to hit is very current meta.

That's super situational and weak. Against Eldar? Brutal. Against any of the armies without a single -1 to hit! Useless. That sounds like a perfect example of a poorly thought army-wide mechanics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/25 21:00:26


 
   
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I really, really hope that we get some scion abilities that are not tied to the doctrines. Doctrines were a cool addition with interesting gameplay. You have to think ahead and make choices about when to switch... Except that the scion boni are so good that with them you most of the time just rust to your favoured doctrine ASAP and stay there.

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 Crimson wrote:
I really, really hope that we get some scion abilities that are not tied to the doctrines. Doctrines were a cool addition with interesting gameplay. You have to think ahead and make choices about when to switch... Except that the scion boni are so good that with them you most of the time just rust to your favoured doctrine ASAP and stay there.
Ultimately, Assault Doctrine bonuses should be significantly better than Devastator or Tactical Doctrine bonuses, as you have to wait longer to get said bonus.

I agree that Scions abilities not tied to Doctrines would be a nice addition.

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Are Grey Knights going to exempt from having those doctrine thingies?
   
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Karol wrote:
Are Grey Knights going to exempt from having those doctrine thingies?
So far Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, and Space Wolves will not get Doctrines.

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It would really be cool if Ultramarines were the only army to get a super doctrine because their chapter tactic is pretty garbage. Realistically. Ironhands without any super doctrine are already better than the ultramarines. If they get a powerful super doct it's not going to be good for the army as a whole because Ironhands will just be auto include.

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Sunny Side Up wrote:
... (Grey Knights getting a new book has apparently been confirmed).

...




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 Xenomancers wrote:
It would really be cool if Ultramarines were the only army to get a super doctrine because their chapter tactic is pretty garbage. Realistically. Ironhands without any super doctrine are already better than the ultramarines. If they get a powerful super doct it's not going to be good for the army as a whole because Ironhands will just be auto include.


white scars already got a super doctrine, thing is not all are equal the UM one is waaay better then white scars. but yeah Iron Hands are a little too good.

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BrianDavion wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
It would really be cool if Ultramarines were the only army to get a super doctrine because their chapter tactic is pretty garbage. Realistically. Ironhands without any super doctrine are already better than the ultramarines. If they get a powerful super doct it's not going to be good for the army as a whole because Ironhands will just be auto include.


white scars already got a super doctrine, thing is not all are equal the UM one is waaay better then white scars. but yeah Iron Hands are a little too good.

I feel sorry for the OG ironhands players who have played them since an edition they barely have any rules who are now going to be Given heck for having what sounds like the ultimate gunline way to play marine's. Better at it than guard if some of what's been leaked is actually true/hasn't been modified for the suplement.
   
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Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
It would really be cool if Ultramarines were the only army to get a super doctrine because their chapter tactic is pretty garbage. Realistically. Ironhands without any super doctrine are already better than the ultramarines. If they get a powerful super doct it's not going to be good for the army as a whole because Ironhands will just be auto include.


white scars already got a super doctrine, thing is not all are equal the UM one is waaay better then white scars. but yeah Iron Hands are a little too good.

I feel sorry for the OG ironhands players who have played them since an edition they barely have any rules who are now going to be Given heck for having what sounds like the ultimate gunline way to play marine's. Better at it than guard if some of what's been leaked is actually true/hasn't been modified for the suplement.


eh i mean my marines have been iron hands successor since 5th but yea i filly intend to poke fun at all of the ironhands come lately and "successor" iron hands chapters that happen to look like smurfs or ravenguard.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
It would really be cool if Ultramarines were the only army to get a super doctrine because their chapter tactic is pretty garbage. Realistically. Ironhands without any super doctrine are already better than the ultramarines. If they get a powerful super doct it's not going to be good for the army as a whole because Ironhands will just be auto include.


So...you dont want one army to be an "autoinclude" so you're going to prevent them from getting a highly needed power boost that your own army has gotten, because a particular subfaction being viable is bad for the game?

That makes a lot of sense.
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
It would really be cool if Ultramarines were the only army to get a super doctrine because their chapter tactic is pretty garbage. Realistically. Ironhands without any super doctrine are already better than the ultramarines. If they get a powerful super doct it's not going to be good for the army as a whole because Ironhands will just be auto include.
Yeah, imagine having your Chapter Tactics being usable most of the time and not being dependent on your opponent's army composition(Crimson Fists say hi). It must really be terrible to be an Ultramarine. Nevermind the fact their Super Doctrine is better than the White Scars Chapter Tactics AND Super Doctrine. Combined. Or having your Primarch to boost your army. But it must really really suck to be the poster boy Chapter.

Honestly, I would be fine if they squated the entire Thirteenth Legion.

Anywho...

One thing that would be fine by me is if, during the Tactical Doctrine, Crimson Fists got their Chapter Tactics bonus to hit on Unit Size +3 or something. It would be a pretty hefty boost though.

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It is kinda 'funny' how you can build better White Scars with the Ultramarine book than with the White Scar book. Ultra scion bonus makes the army super mobile.

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