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Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Crimson wrote:
It is kinda 'funny' how you can build better White Scars with the Ultramarine book than with the White Scar book. Ultra scion bonus makes the army super mobile.
Yeah, it is pretty pathetic, honestly. There is really not a whole lot to the White Scars that makes them an effective rapid response force, despite that being their supposed niche. Honestly, Ultramarines will do as well or better against hordes due to their added shooting from Bolter Discipline always being on in the Tactical Doctrine, Aggressors always getting double shots, and being able to bounce out of combat to shoot.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





the white scars seem to be more designed around a fast assault chapter.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
the white scars seem to be more designed around a fast assault chapter.

This whitescars built for their buffs do more damage that Ultramarines, the issue I suspect is needing to be in turn 3+ to maximise damage and people still think of spacemarine bikes as shooting units not the charge and fall back recharge unit's GW envisages.

Ultramarines are good if you can keep the game on your terms, once it gors wrong they just don't have the tools/might in CC to play a reactive game.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the white scars seem to be more designed around a fast assault chapter.

This whitescars built for their buffs do more damage that Ultramarines, the issue I suspect is needing to be in turn 3+ to maximise damage and people still think of spacemarine bikes as shooting units not the charge and fall back recharge unit's GW envisages.

Ultramarines are good if you can keep the game on your terms, once it gors wrong they just don't have the tools/might in CC to play a reactive game.


yeah but forcing Ultramarines INTO CC isn't exactly easy

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in ca
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun






Update to this;
Iron hands have Calculated Fury during the devastatior doctrine that removes the move a fire penalty to heavy weapons and lets you reroll hits of 1 with heavy.
Raven Guard have surgical strikes in the tactical doctrine that allows you to add 1 to both hit and wound rolls against characters.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/09/space-marines-preview-sons-of-ferrus-manusgw-homepage-post-3/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/10/preview-sons-of-coraxgw-homepage-post-4/
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It is kinda 'funny' how you can build better White Scars with the Ultramarine book than with the White Scar book. Ultra scion bonus makes the army super mobile.
Yeah, it is pretty pathetic, honestly. There is really not a whole lot to the White Scars that makes them an effective rapid response force, despite that being their supposed niche. Honestly, Ultramarines will do as well or better against hordes due to their added shooting from Bolter Discipline always being on in the Tactical Doctrine, Aggressors always getting double shots, and being able to bounce out of combat to shoot.

Their "supposed niche" is that they're hunters.

Much like the Raven Guard, their fluff and theme was bastardized to be "tHeY dO tHiS tHiNg OnLy" wih the bikers.
   
Made in nl
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the white scars seem to be more designed around a fast assault chapter.

This whitescars built for their buffs do more damage that Ultramarines, the issue I suspect is needing to be in turn 3+ to maximise damage and people still think of spacemarine bikes as shooting units not the charge and fall back recharge unit's GW envisages.

Ultramarines are good if you can keep the game on your terms, once it gors wrong they just don't have the tools/might in CC to play a reactive game.


White Scars seem to be pretty much custom built around a big blob of bikes using the Encircle stratagem, come in on T2 out of range of dangerous 12 or 18" guns to make use of AP-1 on their twin boltguns (and use the 4++ stratagem for protection), then do a 20" move + advance T3 and charge in with AP-1 D2 chainswords and whatever nastiness you put on the sarges and the accompanying captain/ khan. I mean, a master-crafted Thunderhammer captain on bike with Imperiums' Sword and Chogorian Storm can pretty much 1-shot a Questoris Knight from T3 onwards (6+ d3 A that hit on 3+ rerolling 1s, wound on a 3+ (S10 because of Imperiums' Sword) and are AP-4 D5. At the very least it will bring it to it's last bracket with non-horrible dice rolls.

It's not as straightforward to use as the IH super-doctrine but it can certainly be powerful. Now we just have to wait for Primaris jetbikes...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It is kinda 'funny' how you can build better White Scars with the Ultramarine book than with the White Scar book. Ultra scion bonus makes the army super mobile.
Yeah, it is pretty pathetic, honestly. There is really not a whole lot to the White Scars that makes them an effective rapid response force, despite that being their supposed niche. Honestly, Ultramarines will do as well or better against hordes due to their added shooting from Bolter Discipline always being on in the Tactical Doctrine, Aggressors always getting double shots, and being able to bounce out of combat to shoot.

Their "supposed niche" is that they're hunters.

Much like the Raven Guard, their fluff and theme was bastardized to be "tHeY dO tHiS tHiNg OnLy" wih the bikers.


It's not like the whole book is built around bikers. Sure, the example I posted above is probably the best way to use their toolkit but they're also very good at getting charges off from deepstrike and even Intercessor blobs running and gunning down the board with auto-bolt rifles to hit melee in T3 are viable. Yes, they're hunters, but more in a feral cheetah/ bird of prey style than the classic "(wo)man with a bow" (or in 40k, a sniper rifle). That's Raven Guards' cup of tea.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/11 11:42:21


 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Kanluwen wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It is kinda 'funny' how you can build better White Scars with the Ultramarine book than with the White Scar book. Ultra scion bonus makes the army super mobile.
Yeah, it is pretty pathetic, honestly. There is really not a whole lot to the White Scars that makes them an effective rapid response force, despite that being their supposed niche. Honestly, Ultramarines will do as well or better against hordes due to their added shooting from Bolter Discipline always being on in the Tactical Doctrine, Aggressors always getting double shots, and being able to bounce out of combat to shoot.

Their "supposed niche" is that they're hunters.

Much like the Raven Guard, their fluff and theme was bastardized to be "tHeY dO tHiS tHiNg OnLy" wih the bikers.
Which would have been exemplified more by having White Scars be able to do something like count Rapid Fire weapons as the equivalent Assault weapon. (Rapid Fire 1 becomes Assault 1). I dunno. I just find the White Scars ability to be lackluster. I don't play them, so it doesn't affect me, but let's not pretend it is even in the same ballpark as Scions of Guilliman or Calculated Fury. They are playing tee ball with MLB players.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

I'm not sure what to expect for the actual bonus, but I hope the following happens:

Black Templars - Assault bonus
Imperial Fists - Dev bonus
Crimson Fists - Either Dev or Tactical (because bolters)
Salamanders - Dev or Tactical, preferably whichever Crimson fists doesn't get

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/11 13:46:21


   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Galef wrote:
I'm not sure what to expect for the actual bonus, but I hope the following happens:

Black Templars - Assault bonus
Imperial Fists - Dev bonus
Crimson Fists - Either Dev or Tactical (because bolters)
Salamanders - Dev or Tactical, preferably whichever Crimson fists doesn't get

-
I am curious if Crimson Fists will get their own Doctrine bonus. They probably should to reflect how different they are from their forebearers now after almost being wiped out. Where the Imperial Fists are an unmoving wall, the Crimson Fists are much more adaptable (with tactical retreats and guerilla tactics being their new focus).

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





 Crimson wrote:
It is kinda 'funny' how you can build better White Scars with the Ultramarine book than with the White Scar book. Ultra scion bonus makes the army super mobile.

See the Eldar Craftworlds. Particularly glaring.
Occasional even the Ork Kultures can be non-intuitive to a certain extent but this is debatable.

Back in 3rd, when a sub-faction had bonus rules, it had to take a minimum of X and/or forbid/limit to 0-1 certain units. And that is the current game design framework is a big NO because obviously would be an obstacle to sell more models. I don't even blame GW, is 90% on the playerbase this one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/11 14:08:23


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Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
 
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