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I played a guy who had 3 units of 6 mek gunz and three units of 30 boyz. He screened the guns with gretchin and ran up the board with the boys to tie up my tanks and keep me from moving up.

I was playing Imperial Guard with a lot of Leman Russ Commanders and Pask, and the situation quickly became I was either always out of range, or I was committing a lot of firepower for an extremely cheap unit.

Can anyone give me any advice on what would help? My biggest issue was that I couldn't deepstrike to tie up his shooting, and I couldn't move up the board without getting my shooting tied up, and my shooting didn't outdo his shooting.

Just to check, he wasn't "Grot Shields"ing his Mek Gunz - as the gunz aren't infantry so aren't eligible.

What else do you have other than tanks, to screen? Any sentinels (their scout moves can cause a lot of trouble in the fight phase for things that run past to avoid being flamed) or screening infantry? IG can move very quickly if they just want to cover ground with orders and will generally out range most things.

I think I'm struggling a bit with the scenario that you tanks can't shoot a decent target but are getting picked off by Mek Gunz when you should have equal or better ranges?

 Tastyfish wrote:
Just to check, he wasn't "Grot Shields"ing his Mek Gunz - as the gunz aren't infantry so aren't eligible.

What else do you have other than tanks, to screen? Any sentinels (their scout moves can cause a lot of trouble in the fight phase for things that run past to avoid being flamed) or screening infantry? IG can move very quickly if they just want to cover ground with orders and will generally out range most things.

I think I'm struggling a bit with the scenario that you tanks can't shoot a decent target but are getting picked off by Mek Gunz when you should have equal or better ranges?

This was the setup. We were playing ITC rules, and this was my first time playing guard. My friend and I are playing on TTS because GW is closed due to the virus. I had first turn, so I screened out my guard to protect my tanks. I killed 4 of the mek gunz on the first turn and a unit of 30 boyz, then he rinsed and destroyed all my tanks on his turn with the other 14 mek gunz. I was using two plasma tanks and two punisher gatling tanks.

My biggest problem was that all the ap on my guns was overkill, and I had to overcommit a lot of shooing into extremely cheap units. He didn't have anything over toughness 5.

Smasha guns are ridiculously cheap for what they do. You will probably never encounter a list like that in real life, because a mek gun is expensive. Next time use battle cannons on your tanks, and you wont be outranged, its the opposite.

Your friend brought an extremely unfriendly, boring and negative-play list that is tailored to rinse Guard. I recommend that next time you agree to play against him you either a) explain to him that you don't want to spend 3 hours playing against such a boring list that spams a broken unit, or b) bring Alaitoc flyer spam and see how he likes being hard-countered by a spammy list tailored for his army, the entirety of which he can only hit on 6s.

Something like 3 crimson hunter exarchs, 3 voidraven bombers, 2 hemlocks, a warlock+farseer on bike and a chunk of scatbikes, with 3 ranger units so you have the option of starting them in DS. That might cure him.

The truth is, a skew list like mekgunspam is truly horrible against certain lists but in tournament will get shut down hard by certain lists, and so hasn't taken off. If your opponent knows what you're bringing, or knows that this is your first time playing a faction (I mean wtf) then they also know that mekgunspam will destroy you.

Otoh they play itc which kicks orks to teeth and mek guns in particular while helping ig.

Mek guns aren't even that tough. Losing 8-10 in a turn isn't even that hard. And what is op saying about being out of range? Ig outranges orks super easily. Did he bring only punishers and lost because orks didn't play list he tried to hard counter?

A Tempestus detachment would too, they've got a strat to disembark from a Valk 5" from the enemy rather than 9" and can still charge.

 p5freak wrote:
Smasha guns are ridiculously cheap for what they do. You will probably never encounter a list like that in real life,...

You say that, but I've been to several events where people actually had that many Mek Guns (legit ones, not kitbashed or 3rd party).

 grouchoben wrote:
Your friend brought an extremely unfriendly, boring and negative-play list that is tailored to rinse Guard. I recommend that next time you agree to play against him you either a) explain to him that you don't want to spend 3 hours playing against such a boring list that spams a broken unit, or b) bring Alaitoc flyer spam and see how he likes being hard-countered by a spammy list tailored for his army, the entirety of which he can only hit on 6s.

Something like 3 crimson hunter exarchs, 3 voidraven bombers, 2 hemlocks, a warlock+farseer on bike and a chunk of scatbikes, with 3 ranger units so you have the option of starting them in DS. That might cure him.

The truth is, a skew list like mekgunspam is truly horrible against certain lists but in tournament will get shut down hard by certain lists, and so hasn't taken off. If your opponent knows what you're bringing, or knows that this is your first time playing a faction (I mean wtf) then they also know that mekgunspam will destroy you.

I'm not really bashing him. I asked him to play a competitive list, and this is what he was going to bring to Adepticon I think. He has this list outside of the game. I just wanted to know what the counter to it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Otoh they play itc which kicks orks to teeth and mek guns in particular while helping ig.

Mek guns aren't even that tough. Losing 8-10 in a turn isn't even that hard. And what is op saying about being out of range? Ig outranges orks super easily. Did he bring only punishers and lost because orks didn't play list he tried to hard counter?

I didn't make this post to complain. I didn't know what he was playing, and I just took the list I made. I just wanted to know how I could do better.

I was outranged because my guns were mostly 36inches, and his were 48. I also had a lot of line of sight issues in that game that forced me to make some really awkward movements. The picture doesn't show it well, but there were three big rocks and a big hill in the middle that blocked line of sight.

Bring some basilisks and stick them right at the back. IG squads with lascannon or missile teams, so you lose 1-3 per mek gun, but the heavy weapon keeps firing.

as people say, IG should out-range the mek guns pretty well. focus on staying out of range of the mek guns and kill off the ork rush, then blow the mek guns apart in order of closest to furthest. With longer range and faster movement, you should be the one controlling the board.

Ig both outranges and out non-los guns orks. If op had trouble with range vs orks list must have been real casual.

And if nothing else works spam in infantry and mek guns are useless. 200 infantry is less than 1000pts. Makes mek guns useless as those are good vs big solo models. Then some 3 basilisks out of sight and other stuff and good to go. Just lasguns of sub-1k part melts unit of boyz without buffs at long range. Then real guns shoot.

Thank you guys for the support. I think the best thing I learned was that the plasma, while I like it, is a big risk because of the 36 inch range. I'm probably going to switch to the regular battle cannon.

And add basilisks.

That said, I own 13 smasha mek gunz and with their new 6++ and reroll 1s to hit, they do feel like they are a bit undercosted, even though they gained 2 pts in last CA.
They are so cheap that they are actually decent at removing 2 wound models like intercessors.
They do make deploying an issue though. These 5 grots you need to deploy around them is their main weakness imho. They give up tons of kills/kill points too but they are good enough for that to not be much of an issue

Grots and the gun are treated as a single model. Or is there a tournament rule saying something otherwise ?

 p5freak wrote:
Grots and the gun are treated as a single model. Or is there a tournament rule saying something otherwise ?

No it’s as you say. Even if they are treated as a single model, grots take up a lot of space when you are fielding anything above 10 mek gunz. That’s 50 25mm bases. They still are OP Though, (especially with Grot subculture)

I think the TTS meta is going to be quite interesting as you can build lists without any concern for actually buying/building/painting the models. This is perhaps not a problem for the super competitive wedge who would pay thousands to attend tournaments every month - but a considerable barrier for most players.

You can counter-deploy Mek Guns with LOS-blocking terrain - but yeah, when they have 48" range I'm not sure how you can just out range them unless you are going to camp right in a corner with a few 72" guns and give up the rest of the table.

Sadly what you described is sorta the meta list for orks right now. And even as an ork player I hate it. Smasha guns are unfun as he'll to use. Rolling each 2d6 wound roll individually eats up time. How to counter it as guard though? The standard battlecannons should kill one each a turn while out ranging them but that hardly feels cost effective. Maybe some scions with plasma dropping near them? Each unit of plaz with the scion order should just about kill a mek gun each while also being generally versatile against other armies. You could even have a lions taurox box. Use the relic and trait to give those near their commander a rr1 and a 5++ then just shove autocannons down his throat.

Mek Gunz have a huge map footprint, on any table with decent terrain you should be able to limit only 2-3 to having LOS on any one thing in your army. Basilisks parked out of their range eat them alive too; they can only move 3 inches (and suffer the -1 to hit if they do move) so where they start the game is pretty much where they end the game.

Do people expect Mech-Guns to see point increases post PA, they were making a showing before they got buffed, now they sound almost as deeply unfun as iron hands/imperial fists to play against.

They aren't fun to play against or to use, but they're nothing like IH/IF lists used to be. And they're frankly a lot less difficult to deal with than, say, Eldar Expert Crafters MSU spam.

They're huge and effectively can't move from the point they start the game. If you just sit out there in the open and let them focus you you're gonna die...but if you do that, you deserve to die.

I think your list was just hard countered. A list with a bunch of infantry and characters probably wouldn't have as much of an issue as a list that has prime targets for those guns.

I was theory crafting what my list could do against that kind of list and it likely involves deleting a grot screen, at least 60 boyz, and a battery of mek gunz. That still leaves a unit of Dark Knights, and some scouts and infiltrators that haven't fired yet to try to kill off an HQ choice.

There's a very real chance that I do enough damage to essentially win that game on turn 1.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They aren't fun to play against or to use, but they're nothing like IH/IF lists used to be. And they're frankly a lot less difficult to deal with than, say, Eldar Expert Crafters MSU spam.

They're huge and effectively can't move from the point they start the game. If you just sit out there in the open and let them focus you you're gonna die...but if you do that, you deserve to die.

Oh I agree, It was more they seemed undercosted before but given the need for los making them a bit meh, I got it.
No it seems liek they have been buffed and additional threats have been added meaning it might not be possible to get through them fast enough, though I've yet to play against them spammed.

They should probably be like 40 points instead of 37, but I don't think they're dramatically under-costed. They just have a very titled statline, which makes them extremely efficient at what they do do. Most vehicles are paying 10-15 points for their movement stat; mek gunz don't pay anything for their movement stat, which is why they're so cheap. So if you can just sit there firing you'll always be more efficient than someone whose vehicles are paying 15 points each to be able to move if they need to.

That efficiency is why they're so boring to play with and against, though. It's not very fun to play with units that do best just sitting there on an open board plinking away.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Mek Gunz have a huge map footprint, on any table with decent terrain you should be able to limit only 2-3 to having LOS on any one thing in your army.

I wanna see that table where only 2-3 from 18 mek gunz have LOS on any one thing in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
They should probably be like 40 points instead of 37, but I don't think they're dramatically under-costed.

More like 50. A smasha gun is 33, btw.

Yeah, you're right, I dunno why I had 37 in my head. The idea that they should be 50 is downright absurd, however.

Obviously we are talking about LOS to any one thing they'd wanna shoot at, not whether they can draw LOS on your trash infantry. If they are shooting smashas at your 1W infantry you are on the road to winning the game (or you've already hopelessly lost it).

On any standard tournament table with the two big Ls in the middle and two more los-blockers in each half if you're letting more than a handful of mek gunz draw LOS to anything they'd want to be shooting at, you've either got a really lopsided list that's 100% prime targets (in which case you shouldn't complain when they beat you), really abnormally tall models, or you're positioning very badly. Especially in ITC, now that the seize is gone.

Don't get me wrong, smashas are extremely efficient at shooting if you let them shoot at you. But we've already been over why that is. A unit that effectively can't move has to be very efficient or it isn't viable.

 addnid wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Grots and the gun are treated as a single model. Or is there a tournament rule saying something otherwise ?

No it’s as you say. Even if they are treated as a single model, grots take up a lot of space when you are fielding anything above 10 mek gunz. That’s 50 25mm bases. They still are OP Though, (especially with Grot subculture)

They are "ignored for all game purposes" per the rules. You can literally stack them on top of each other if you want, or just deploy your guns where you want them to be and sprinkle grot models on top of them. You can legally tell your opponent "I've put the grot models 5 miles away in a drawer at my house".

the_scotsman wrote:

 addnid wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Grots and the gun are treated as a single model. Or is there a tournament rule saying something otherwise ?

No it’s as you say. Even if they are treated as a single model, grots take up a lot of space when you are fielding anything above 10 mek gunz. That’s 50 25mm bases. They still are OP Though, (especially with Grot subculture)

They are "ignored for all game purposes" per the rules. You can literally stack them on top of each other if you want, or just deploy your guns where you want them to be and sprinkle grot models on top of them. You can legally tell your opponent "I've put the grot models 5 miles away in a drawer at my house".

That’s not entirely true, the Grot models have to be deployed with the Mek Gun, within 1” of the gun and thereafter they are considered one model with the Mek Gun and your opponent can draw LoS to them but you can’t use the Grots to draw LoS to your opponent. I’m not with my codex right now but that’s the rule on the datasheet as I recall it.

LOS is measured from the mek gun for all purposes, not from the krew. But the other poster is wrong in what he says. They have to remain within 1 inch of the mek gun, and they can't be stacked on top of each other just like you can't stack any other model. They aren't "ignored for all game purposes," they are considered a single model for all game purposes, except for LOS/visibility, which goes off the mek gun only.

Here is the exact wording:

Grot Krew: Each Mek Gun and its grot krew are treated
as a single model for all rules purposes. The krew must
remain within 1" of their Mek Gun and cannot be
targeted or attacked separately. The range and visibility
of all attacks made by a Mek Gun are measured from the
Mek Gun, not the krew.

yukishiro1 wrote:
LOS is measured from the mek gun for all purposes, not from the krew. But the other poster is wrong in what he says. They have to remain within 1 inch of the mek gun, and they can't be stacked on top of each other just like you can't stack any other model. They aren't "ignored for all game purposes," they are considered a single model for all game purposes, except for LOS/visibility, which goes off the mek gun only.

Here is the exact wording:

Grot Krew: Each Mek Gun and its grot krew are treated
as a single model for all rules purposes. The krew must
remain within 1" of their Mek Gun and cannot be
targeted or attacked separately. The range and visibility
of all attacks made by a Mek Gun are measured from the
Mek Gun, not the krew.

Thanks for posting the rule. Now that I’ve seen it I do feel that my previous statement was correct, the rule makes the exception that the crew can’t be used for the controlling player to draw LoS to enemy models but makes no exception for the opposing player drawing LoS to them if they want to target the Mek Gun - only that the crew can’t be targeted separately as they aren’t their own unit.

Yeah, you're actually right, it does make the exception only for the Mek Gun itself. So potentially you can fire at the mek gun via its krew even though it can't fire back at you.