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I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Is this another case of GW bamboozling and we're gonna have to wait for the new codex?

Also:

The rules presented in the 8th edition (printed 2018) version of Codex: Space Wolves are no longer supported, and cannot be used. Similarly, if a Space Wolves rule from Psychic Awakening: Saga of the Beast does not feature within this document, it cannot be used. When Codex Supplement: Space Wolves is released, all of the rules within that will then replace and supersede this entire document, at which point none of the rules here can be used.

So anyone who actually bought PA: SotB just got scammed out of a lot of money for rules that were only used for a handful of months.

If you've been scammed I suggest reporting it to the police.

Been covered in other threads, but I am not sure it was us that was bamboozled, GW internal communication being it's usual terrible level led to them making a lot of vague wishywashy statement that were later walked back in comunity articals as a foot note.

TLDR the last position from GW was you only get a change if it has the same name as a spacemarine item.

What GW have actually doesn't quite match, more changes for consistency are better than the alternative but it's still the age old wait for your 8th edition codex untill then enjoy playing your 8th edition units with oth edition points vrs a 9th edition codex.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Is this another case of GW bamboozling and we're gonna have to wait for the new codex?

Also:

The rules presented in the 8th edition (printed 2018) version of Codex: Space Wolves are no longer supported, and cannot be used. Similarly, if a Space Wolves rule from Psychic Awakening: Saga of the Beast does not feature within this document, it cannot be used. When Codex Supplement: Space Wolves is released, all of the rules within that will then replace and supersede this entire document, at which point none of the rules here can be used.

So anyone who actually bought PA: SotB just got scammed out of a lot of money for rules that were only used for a handful of months.

And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Uuuhh...They flat out said those would be coming with new codex. If you didn't bother to read what GW said then blame is on you. They TOLD you where they come. Why are you looking at errata for them then? There's difference between "they will come with errata!" and "they will come with nw codex!".

Dudeface wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Is this another case of GW bamboozling and we're gonna have to wait for the new codex?

Also:

The rules presented in the 8th edition (printed 2018) version of Codex: Space Wolves are no longer supported, and cannot be used. Similarly, if a Space Wolves rule from Psychic Awakening: Saga of the Beast does not feature within this document, it cannot be used. When Codex Supplement: Space Wolves is released, all of the rules within that will then replace and supersede this entire document, at which point none of the rules here can be used.

So anyone who actually bought PA: SotB just got scammed out of a lot of money for rules that were only used for a handful of months.

And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

The actual truth is unimportant here, just the continued aesthetic of being right while a majority are wrong.

I don't know if they ever actually said it was coming with the FAQ - just that it was coming, and later that it was coming with the codexes. It looks like we're going to have to wait, unless we want to house rule it at similar pricing changes.

I'm trying to figure out what those changes were, and so far I've got:

Bikes: +5
Tacs/Assaults/Devs/Sternguard vets/Blood Claws/Grey Hunters: +3
Tactical Terminators: +2
Vanguard Vets: +2
Thunder Hammer Assault Terminators: +1
LC Assault terminators: +0
Thunderwolf Cavalry: +0

So it seems reasonable to run +3 for most CSM (Regulars, Chosen, Cult, Havocs, Possessed(?)) to get the 2nd wound, +2 for Terminators and +5 for bikes to maintain parity.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Is this another case of GW bamboozling and we're gonna have to wait for the new codex?

I suggest following a CPAW approach to this issue, not a CPAYRI one.

Dai wrote:
If you've been scammed I suggest reporting it to the police.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it morally right. Space Wolves players have indeed been taken for a ride with SotB (and before you say "you're a fool if you didn't see it coming" - I did - but new players won't have known better, and it's exactly the kind of thing that would push a new player away).

In regards to CSM not getting Wound updates - everything I read mentioned this would come with the Codex update, not before. I don't really think that's the right way to do it, but neither were we lied to on that front.
You could argue that the supplement Chapters shouldn't get those indexes either, but a) we know those supplements are just around the corner and b) it's kind of necessary that they got some kind of FAQ update as the new Codex causes some conflicts and duplication with the old ones.

 Dysartes wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Is this another case of GW bamboozling and we're gonna have to wait for the new codex?

I suggest following a CPAW approach to this issue, not a CPAYRI one.

Community planning assistance for wildfires?

Dudeface wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Is this another case of GW bamboozling and we're gonna have to wait for the new codex?

I suggest following a CPAW approach to this issue, not a CPAYRI one.

Community planning assistance for wildfires?

Colossal Prostate Analysis Weasel protocols are usually more effective than the Capybara Practices Air Yotsutake Really Irritatingly approach.

Does it matter?

Dai wrote:
If you've been scammed I suggest reporting it to the police.

And I can even tell you what the anwser of police is when you get scamed by a big company, the state or any form of goverment officials.


Well at least the DA rules in sm codex look solid, and the chance for a 1ksons or GK codex "soon" are close to zero, so the PA book I bought wasn't that bad. I wish I could haved used it in 8th ed, but in 9th it still practicaly makes the GK codex an actualy working thing.

Nurglitch wrote:
Does it matter?

Any situation into which you introduce prostate weasels will generate undeniable results, my friend.

"I thought a thing that was never said was happening and now I'm angry and making a thread."

OK...

"People got scammed because they bought a book in March and now it's October and it's a new edition."

Well, no, people were not scammed else there'd be queue of calls to the police. It's disappointing that they weren't valid longer but hyperbole has gotta be better than that to cut through around here. Is it actually a surprise that GW's modus operandi is to sell you new rules repeatedly? No, it isn't.

So basically nothing to see here.

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I thought GW said Chaos Space Marines were also going to be bumped up a wound. All the loyalist chapters got an Index Supplement to tide them over until their full supplement, but it seems CSM only got the weapon upgrades.

Uuuhh...They flat out said those would be coming with new codex. If you didn't bother to read what GW said then blame is on you. They TOLD you where they come. Why are you looking at errata for them then? There's difference between "they will come with errata!" and "they will come with nw codex!".

Playing a -1W army in a world where 2W is the base state for meq, is not going to be fun for those armies that get their book in 12+ months.

Karol wrote:

Playing a -1W army in a world where 2W is the base state for meq, is not going to be fun for those armies that get their book in 12+ months.

\

Which is why I suggest that if you're not playing in tournaments and are lucky enough to have an understanding, regular group, propose enacting the wound changes early with a commensurate price raise and see how it works out. Most 1W Marines go up 3 for the 2nd wound; Terminators went up 2 (or less, but treat it as 2) for the 3rd wound; Bikes went up 5. Apply the point costs; does that even things out enough for a stopgap measure to make the next 6 to 12 months less sucky for Chaos, or merely solve one of the many issues?

I have absolutly no idea, as people here play RAW rules. But it would be nice if it worked for the people who can play in places where such rules can be implemented.

Karol wrote:
I have absolutly no idea, as people here play RAW rules. But it would be nice if it worked for the people who can play in places where such rules can be implemented.

I can't even really fathom of a situation where a group of people who are presumably old enough to vote, smoke and fight in the army would not be capable of applying this points conversion to the largely identical units from the various chaos SM codexes.

GW told us when csm wounds would go up, it was clearly communicated this would happen when THEIR codex comes out.

GW also told us that the PA books would remain valid and were written with 9th edition in mind.

Scammed might not be the right word and police is not the correct organisation but in the uk we do have solid consumer rights. If you can find something that states that PA would be valid 9ed work only to find it has been made redundant by the 9th Ed codex then I think you have a case to go to consumer rights organisations for advice and to submit a proper complaint.

To be clear if the statement is that you can only use PA rules if they are in the codex then PA is redundant now and I think there is a significant case for declaring it a rip off.

You might not be entitled to compensation but if GW receive enough complaints supported by consumer rights then they may respond by giving something back


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:
GW told us when csm wounds would go up, it was clearly communicated this would happen when THEIR codex comes out.

GW also told us that the PA books would remain valid and were written with 9th edition in mind.

They question is why up the guns but not the wounds. It’s just makes no sense to me. At the end of the day your army is going to be at a disadvantage until the new codex comes out but still this would have been an easy win

PA books are made for the 8th edition of 40k. They are compatible with 9th edition and can be used until they get a replacement there.

Don't know about you, but my book does not magically stop working if I decide to play a game with the 8th edition ruleset.

I don't see ground for any legal action here.

Speaking from a pro-consumer side, GW could have made it more clear that these are going to be the last books for the edition and that a new one will be coming very soon. With the possibility that some PA books will be replaced within the first few months.

I'm not complaining myself. I believed in the early rumours of 9th happening this summer when I bought my first PA. But not everybody was aware of it.

The Traitor Legions book that more or less fixed CSM at the end of 7th edition was only valid for 6 months tops... :(

If I lived in the UK I'd totally go after GW for how they handled PA and charging for rules that were good for just a few months.

I don't buy books for this reason. Not enough value because they become invalidated so quickly. I'll put that money into models which have sustained value.

If PA was a scam? Where is my new Tau Codex? It has been considerably longer than 6 months.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If I lived in the UK I'd totally go after GW for how they handled PA and charging for rules that were good for just a few months.

And you would lose.

You can complain all you want about the short lifespan of the books but that doesn't mean you got scammed.

Buyer Beware...

I do not pay full price for GW rules. I either buy 2nd hand and let some chump pay the full pop, or I find other means of acquiring the rules.

Frankly, I doubt any court would find the books to have been a rip-off. The books are sold as entertainment. If I read a book, and then 2 hours later realize there's no more value in it, I can't return it for a refund. I have not been ripped off. I read the book, was entertained, and now I'm no longer entertained.

Surprise! You paid for GW rules and were disappointed! But you read the book and now you have a paperweight. Karol should be familiar with the old Polish saying...

"That's too bad." - except in Polish.

As I said this is not a legal issue but it is a consumer rights issue and retailers are expected to act fairly towards customers in ways that aren’t explicitly backed up by legislation. If nothing more shaming a retailer by marking complaints with the support of consumer rights organisation like an ombudsman can yield results.

For me I just feel like my expectations have not been managed well at all. The only PA book I bought was war of the spider for the Fabius rules and was ripped off big time. They will say it’s worth 20 cost of all the rules that it has in it but I don’t play death guard or custodes so no good to me, and I didn’t know what I was getting until I bought it. But if a 9thCSM codex comes out it will have the creations of bile rules in it so what was the freaking point!

If one of my suppliers at work behaved like this they would be at serious risk of losing our business but as consumers we accept being treated poorly.

You can say if you don’t like it don’t play 40K but that’s not really a good argument because as a consumer that have invest hundreds or thousands of pounds in something you can’t just be expect to walk away. It’s also an argument that support the idea that companies shouldn’t be interested in their customers satisfaction. And if people did stop playing then the rest of you that put up with it might find that prices go up a bit more or none of you can play 40K cos it went bust.

mrFickle wrote:
As I said this is not a legal issue but it is a consumer rights issue and retailers are expected to act fairly towards customers in ways that aren’t explicitly backed up by legislation. If nothing more shaming a retailer by marking complaints with the support of consumer rights organisation like an ombudsman can yield results.

For me I just feel like my expectations have not been managed well at all. The only PA book I bought was war of the spider for the Fabius rules and was ripped off big time. They will say it’s worth 20 cost of all the rules that it has in it but I don’t play death guard or custodes so no good to me, and I didn’t know what I was getting until I bought it. But if a 9thCSM codex comes out it will have the creations of bile rules in it so what was the freaking point!

If one of my suppliers at work behaved like this they would be at serious risk of losing our business but as consumers we accept being treated poorly.

You can say if you don’t like it don’t play 40K but that’s not really a good argument because as a consumer that have invest hundreds or thousands of pounds in something you can’t just be expect to walk away. It’s also an argument that support the idea that companies shouldn’t be interested in their customers satisfaction. And if people did stop playing then the rest of you that put up with it might find that prices go up a bit more or none of you can play 40K cos it went bust.

You bought a book for the 8th edition, you can use your book for the 8th edition. If you are not happy with the price to value ratio, then my honest, not sarcastic advice is to read a review the next time before you buy something.

What would be your ideal solution to the situation?