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2021/08/20 17:44:20
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Tiers are quite arguable ATM.
For example, blastajet is green while dakka jet is not. Blastajets are indeed great in regards to firepower but are very expensive and fragile. Enemies with long-ranged firepower will take them out t1. While dakkajets provide more utility for missions as there are more of them for the price. And with new csm anti-air I think that light but expensive planes are gona be out of the picture very soon.
Blitza bomber being better than a burns bomber - another questionable thing. Burna can shoot better and bombs aren't great for any of them anyway. Burna is also cheaper.
Blood axes culture being red - totally disagree, so do tourney results that show that there are a lot of blood axe buggies that perform great in tourney meta due to fall back + shoot or charge. It's also great for kommandoes. I think red is just op's personal view on the matter which is not objective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Grots being worse than boyz is also quite questionable. There are too many situations when you want cheaper troops. Grots are better in this regard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/21 09:40:49
2021/08/21 13:27:45
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Blood axes culture being red - totally disagree, so do tourney results that show that there are a lot of blood axe buggies that perform great in tourney meta due to fall back + shoot or charge. It's also great for kommandoes. I think red is just op's personal view on the matter which is not objective.
"A lot"? Mind backing up that claim?
For the one guy I saw doing well with blood axes, he said he mainly picked them for the redeployment shenanigans, and that he will drop them next time.
Grots being worse than boyz is also quite questionable. There are too many situations when you want cheaper troops. Grots are better in this regard.
A unit isn't good just because it's the cheapest crap option. Gretchin essentially are terrible at every task you could possibly want them for, you are buying them to pay less CP for detachments.
I think i've seen 2 lists from top 3 running blood axe buggies. That's like 1/3 of all top ork lists so far Blood axes are on par or even better than others clans vs armies with fast mellee that just ties you up. That's all types of elves, nids, gsc, Csm with warptime or dragons and pods. Also, custodes that are not as fast but are too tough. Those armies can tie up any unit they want and simple bigshootas with -1 to hit will not be enough to deal with them if you get to 2d. Blood axe kommandoes are also great for 3+ turn scoring in the open when the opponent can't get closer and simply doesn't have enough firepower to reliably kill 3+ armored orks.
I fail to see it being Red. It's green vs this matchups and yellow vs others.
As for grots, you need troops that simply sit behind blos, score secondaeies and perform actions. Doing this with a 50 pt squad is better than with a 90 pt squad.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/21 13:31:47
2021/08/21 19:12:32
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Flash gits are too expensive and fragile and d2 is not even close to how good it used to be a year ago.
They can be used in min squads in trukks or as a large squad marching behind grots. Ideally, ran as freebootas with +1 triggered twice or bdmoons on smaller maps.
Yeah, they have a strategem to shoot twice but it's whooping 2 cp and targets closest enemy. And can't be used from a transport, so you need to walk on foot and you need a grotshield or an evil sun battlewagon moving blos which is, well, a whole wagon and 1cp.
If I had to run them, I'd go for 5-man squads in trukks. Sarges have free +1 to hit and you won't waste tons of cp and extra pts on grot shields. Freebootas in 1k+ games with mandatory couple of squig buggies to trigger +1 to hit. In smaller games, probably bad moons.
I don't see large footslogging squads working in even semi-competitive games atm. Just too expensive, too fragile and require too much to work well. You're better off with tankbustas or even lootas for the price. It's odd they're marked as good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/21 19:23:44
2021/08/22 06:54:22
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
BA shouldn't be red because is better than before, by the possibility to fall back and shoot/charge and incredible reserve manipulation, by strat and WT. Finally their relic is the only way to gain CP for Orks and can be taken by a any character.
Which leads to Mek being somehow a tiny better than before, since he can have the Finkin Cap and just farm CP together for with a mek gunz that can be repaired every turn. Possibly.
Just ignore the rating if you know the units allready. It's aimed for new players that are yet to figure stuff out themselves. And more obvious buffs like +1 to hit or a re-roll are better for them.
2021/08/23 00:23:43
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Either freebootas, goffs or blood axes. Freebootas would have been a go-to option if you had more shooty elements to deal with small enemy squads for your super heavies to get +1 to hit bonus, however you'll not likely get it triggered with shooting before at least 1 of the naughty and will still waste some mellee potential before getting +1 to hit, but hey, if you know your opponent is gona run easy-to-kill msu that will reliably get a squad gunned down by a couple killa kan + dread rokkits, go for it.
Goffs are plain and simple extra mellee hits while blood axes are more subtle with "i've got a plan, ladz", 2+ armor t1 vs shooting outside 18 in case you go 2d, so that you can save kff for t2 or lure your opponent within 18" for your big'n stompy robots to follow up with the charge, and more versatility to fall back and shoot with your gargants or charge with your smaller walkers. In case you get tarpitted with something you can't chew through. And when our Titans degrade, they become progressively worse in mellee. Well, freebootas are
So, in your case, I'd go blood axes. The mind tricks you can pull off redeploying or reserving a stompa with 2 naughty are gold. And those extra tricks are more likely to win you games than simple extra hits in mellee.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 00:50:37
2021/08/23 05:11:03
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
The blood axe clan as a whole as improved, but the kulture is unchanged. I see zero reason why it suddenly should go up, especially that far, and your only real argument is "tournaments!!!". And just for the record, having seen tournament results without providing links is not proof.
So either provide some actual reasoning why a worthless trait has jumped from red to green overnight despite not changing, or stop being a whiney about it. It's always easy to take a gak on other people's work and not invest any yourself.
There's an ork player taking 1st with mono blood axe buggy spam. But he specializes in spam.
I'm gona participate in an escalating pts tourney next month if I manage to finish buggies in time. Will take blood axes to feel all the nuances myself. I think that the added versatility is gona be good for scrap jets. Being able to shoot + charge + fall back and shoot again can be quite helpful. But we'll see. It's gona start small with 500 and than go to 1k and than 1500. My collection of buggies is not large enough for 2k but it's possible to finish up 4 scrap jets and 2 squig buggies in time.
I'll write how it goes - good or bad.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 13:39:18
2021/08/23 13:41:17
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Jidmah wrote: It's always easy to take a gak on other people's work and not invest any yourself.
I'm not trying to devalue what you're doing. Trying to provide arguments. Blood axes are my favorite clan and for once in it's recent history it has some great interactions that are actually worth bringing in our competitive meta.
And so, I come here to share my joy, and see them red. Which makes me a very sad war boss. Don't break me 'eart, man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 14:05:09
2021/08/23 14:19:17
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur’s Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
If we're talking proposed rules, i'd make lootas heavy 2 with d3 damage for 13ppm with no mandatory mek and flashgitz Dakka 5/3 with their strat giving +1d and AP instead of shoot twice. This way we'd have one ranged cheap-ish unit that doesn't deal much damage but can sit all across the board in some ruin dropping autocannon-like pod shots with 1 in 3 chance to deal 2 damage to -1d opponents that we face a lot. And another more elite unit that wants to get closer and can make their guns extremely deadly for 2cp and not just vs the closest opponent. But that'd force them to disembark ans get smoked next turn. But they'd not loose their deadliness for moving.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing about mini meks. They're characters, are one of the cheapest around and can also perform actions. Now with how look out sir works, you can have a unit of grots hidden out of Los while mek can perform actions in the open and while he is within 3 of grots and further from the enemy than ANY other friendly unit - not necessarily this grots, he can just hold a point with no danger of being shot to bits.
Now that doesn't work every time and with every objective but it's very common in tourney makes to have some Los just close to a point but out of it's reach for a regular squad. But if you add this 3", you can so it. And it can be the thing earning you victory.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 19:22:23
2021/08/23 19:31:16
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I've run tellyporta mek with dss. Great unit. I used a trukk but footslogging alongside buggies is also ok - obviously, tellyporta ain't working t1 in this case.
2021/08/25 08:53:59
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
koooaei wrote: Another thing about mini meks. They're characters, are one of the cheapest around and can also perform actions. Now with how look out sir works, you can have a unit of grots hidden out of Los while mek can perform actions in the open and while he is within 3 of grots and further from the enemy than ANY other friendly unit - not necessarily this grots, he can just hold a point with no danger of being shot to bits.
Most relevant actions cannot be performed by characters though. The only one you can pick in any mission is Raise The Banners High and a mek and gretchin aren't exactly great at scoring a lot of points from raised banners. Essentially this would only work for certain mission specific secondaries, and at least half of the action ones are not something you would ever pick.
There's nothing wrong with banners. Pretty good for us - at least it's competing with octarius data and can potentially bring more points. Also, scoring a point in the open with an untargetable character is what can win you games.
Also, I've calculated skrapjets damage output vs unbuffed Mortarion and found out that apeedwaagh skrapjets deals 1.7 wounds with shooting (1.1 comes from bigshootas) and 1.2 in mellee - mostly from mortal wounds.
Not saying it's a great idea to charge Mortarion but the fact that mellee can give such a huge percentage boost is a bit unexpected. I'm even more positive for blood axes now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/25 08:55:57
2021/08/25 14:06:15
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Jidmah wrote: Does it work well for you? I eventually stopped using it, because it's just to easy for other armies to tear them down.
For the Mortarion math did you consider the 5+++, -1 to hit and anti-rerolls aura?
But yes, rokkits and MW are great against him in general. You just need to keep in mind the variance of three 4+ rolls, there is a good chance that you fail all of them and just have put three buggies to the scythe.
The skrapjets was only buffed with speedwaagh and Mortarion did not have -1 to hit.
Freeboota skrapjet with sttacked hits will do better in shooting but it will still have around 1/3 of it's damage output in mellee.
I started calculations cause there are a couple dg players that run tough lists with mortarion in 1k pt games and I wanted to calculate what can I expect to achieve if I decide to attack him. And once again, I'm not saying it's a good idea to charge Mortarion, you're better off going in all directions, scoring and trying to kill the rest of the list which is still not easy - and you need every bit possible to do it in time. So, just pointing out that we can squeeze even more out of our jets - not just shooting. But mellee is indeed quite swingy. I think there will be plenty of targets for buggy charges and having an option to do against stuff that won't wreck your vehicle in return. And divinng right in without fear of getting bogged down in mellee is a nice thing to consider.
So far, I have not tried any of the buggies yet as they are still under construction but, as I've said previously, I'm gona run blood axes in an escalating league and see how it goes. My initial thought was to run death skulls (as it's an obvious choice for a couple of beat re rolls and mw protection) as we're starting at 500 pts, than 1k and that's clearly not freebootas league...but than I thought, why not go for my favorite clan - blood axes! And than,after some re-reading of the rules and calculations I've come to a conclusion that it might not just be a fluffy choice. It might end up pretty competitive.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/25 14:24:05
2021/08/25 16:09:11
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Tumbleweed wrote: If you're going to be butting heads with dudes that are playing Mortarion at 1k, take Ghaz, give him some Fists of Gork and knock 7 bells out of him. Messing about trying to kite on a 4x4 board or plinking wounds off is an exercise in futility.
I don't own Ghaz but I have a friend that we often share collection with who is planning to buy Ghaz + Makari. But anyway, Ghaz is not that great vs mort. If you calculate his damage output - it's pretty comparable with a skeapjet's damage output in mellee. Point for point. Ghaz will deal 4-5 damage to mort in mellee, while 3 skrapjets will deal around 3-4. Pretty comparable.
2021/08/25 18:43:48
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I don't own Ghaz but I have a friend that we often share collection with who is planning to buy Ghaz + Makari. But anyway, Ghaz is not that great vs mort. If you calculate his damage output - it's pretty comparable with a skeapjet's damage output in mellee. Point for point. Ghaz will deal 4-5 damage to mort in mellee, while 3 skrapjets will deal around 3-4. Pretty comparable.
Is it really that bad? I've never sat down to roll dice to try it out, but with Fists of Gork you're hitting him ~8 times (base, fists and WL trait, exploding hits and rerolling misses), wounding on 2s (14 +2 at least) for 12 damage (not counting waaaagh or charging in the numbers) or so. That aside, the reason to take ghaz is your chums are sinking 500 points into a mega beatstick. If you can limit him to doing 4W in CC per turn you're onto a winner. As others have said, if you're charging him with scrapjets, what you're actually doing is feeding him free kills on your turn...unless somehow you've got him to 4W already, in which case, fill your boots!
No, I haven't included +3 attacks for magic and waagh but the rest is calculated accurately. Remember, you can't re-roll anything or be affected by any auras While fighting mort.
Skrapjets didn't get any benefits in mellee at all but you could probably make them...goffs, which is a bit counter-productive. More than half of the damage they deal to mort comes from mortal wounds anyway.
As for magic buffs, Magic is tricky. First of all, it's quite unreliavlble and mort can also deny it, second - it comes with the price of another jet. Even if you include fully buffed Ghaz, you end up with around 7-9 damage on average which is close to degrading mort to 1 less attack. But ghaz will likely get killed in 2 turns as mort is a caster and can also shoot his gun.
4 skrapjets will deal around 4-5 wounds in mellee. And around 8-10 with shooting... i don't know, Ghaz seems a bit underwhelming for his price in such small games. He's more of a force multiplier that can occasionally beat not top mellee stuff and can be good if the opponent focuses on just shooting or just mellee as he can survive long enough to fight a couple times and buff what's around him.
Now if you take Ghaz in a 500 pt game... He will still get wrecked by small dreadnaughts Yeah, he needs his buddies around.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/25 18:47:51
2021/08/25 20:06:27
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I think I can handle mort by outscoring him and killing his scoring ASAP. Basically, playing a 1k vs 500 game with loosing a portion of your army every turn. The idea is to try and not provide more than 1 squad to kill in mellee at a time. Easier said than done but that's a better plan than go all out on buffed mort if you go 2d.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have plenty of experience of dealing with knight armies in 1k games at their prime - when we had no real way to reliably kill them in mellee. So, it might be close to that. Mort is slower and less shoots, but is much tougher.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/25 20:09:55
2021/08/26 05:48:34
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Well, that's a game, and, as i've told a couple times - our meta is competitive. I don't mind facing him in small games as I think he's beatable but not all lists and approaches can handle him. But that's normal for 40k in general.
Btw, last time one of them mistakenly took mortarion in a 500 pt game. As it turns out, you can't take only supreme command. Anyways, he went 2d as he was just outscored and was unlucky to fail the charge one turn.
In 1k pt he's gona have some durable scoring that might prove problematic, but if we focus on this scoring and score ourselves, we might get a chance.
Or, if orks get 1st turn, we can, instead try to focus down mort. It's unlikely we will kill him in one go but the chances of dealing around 8-10 damage with buggies and kmk are not that slim.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/26 05:51:45
2021/08/26 05:51:05
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Btw, unbuffed bbk goff boss on squigosaur with killchoppa will deal around 5 wounds to mort. Which is close to 2.5 times better than ghaz point-for-point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/26 06:27:40
2021/08/26 08:01:46
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Beardedragon wrote:When you use brutal but kunning warlord trait, are you allowed to dedicate those extra hits to another target you are in close combat with and is eligable to attack?
Or must you use those extra hits to attack the same target as your original attacks?
koooaei wrote:It seems you can allocate extra attacks wherever you want
That would be another interesting interaction. In that case, when killing the first target with the extra bite attacks before the normal attacks, would the normal attacks count against brutal but kunning as attacks that did not reach the damage step?
It's worth noting that you still can only allocate attacks to models you have charged if you charged this turn. You also don't get another pile-in so you might no longer be in engagement range after killing your original target.
As for making attacks against a dead unit - technically you still would need to make hit and wound rolls for those attacks which then cannot be allocated to a model afterwards. So yes, they would be attacks that did not reach the inflict damage step.
The out-of range is not an issue as you do not fight again, just get additional attacks.
2021/08/26 11:01:39
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
koooaei wrote: The out-of range is not an issue as you do not fight again, just get additional attacks.
Never mind, re-read BBK. You always have to make the attacks against the same unit you have targeted before, thus skipping the select target step.
So if you wipe the enemy unit, no extra attacks for you.
For reference:
Each time this WARLORD fights, if all of its attacks target one enemy unit, after resolving all of those attacks, it can make a number of additional attacks against that enemy unit equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the Inflict Damage step of the attack sequence during that fight.
Oh, right, you got to allocate them to the same unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's still ok as it adds around 1/3 damage against tougher targets with good invuls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or, to be more precise, it's your attack stabilizer. In case you roll poorly 1st time or the enemy gets too lucky, you got to make a lot of extra attacks. In case you got lucky and your opponent failed a lot of saves, you don't get much out of it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/26 11:15:46
2021/08/27 20:06:28
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Even if you could deep strike t2, it's not a good option as you will likely not get a place to fit your fortification due to 3" away from other terrain - rule.
2021/08/29 14:23:09
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
