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 Jidmah wrote:

 R1ncewind wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:When you use brutal but kunning warlord trait, are you allowed to dedicate those extra hits to another target you are in close combat with and is eligable to attack?

Or must you use those extra hits to attack the same target as your original attacks?

koooaei wrote:It seems you can allocate extra attacks wherever you want

That would be another interesting interaction. In that case, when killing the first target with the extra bite attacks before the normal attacks, would the normal attacks count against brutal but kunning as attacks that did not reach the damage step?

It's worth noting that you still can only allocate attacks to models you have charged if you charged this turn. You also don't get another pile-in so you might no longer be in engagement range after killing your original target.

As for making attacks against a dead unit - technically you still would need to make hit and wound rolls for those attacks which then cannot be allocated to a model afterwards. So yes, they would be attacks that did not reach the inflict damage step.

The out-of range is not an issue as you do not fight again, just get additional attacks.

 koooaei wrote:
The out-of range is not an issue as you do not fight again, just get additional attacks.

Never mind, re-read BBK. You always have to make the attacks against the same unit you have targeted before, thus skipping the select target step.

So if you wipe the enemy unit, no extra attacks for you.

For reference:

Each time this WARLORD fights, if all of its attacks target one enemy unit, after resolving all of those attacks, it can make a number of additional attacks against that enemy unit equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the Inflict Damage step of the attack sequence during that fight.

So... BBK dont even trigger unless all attacks reach one target? thats a bit annoying.

 Jidmah wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The out-of range is not an issue as you do not fight again, just get additional attacks.

Never mind, re-read BBK. You always have to make the attacks against the same unit you have targeted before, thus skipping the select target step.

So if you wipe the enemy unit, no extra attacks for you.

For reference:

Each time this WARLORD fights, if all of its attacks target one enemy unit, after resolving all of those attacks, it can make a number of additional attacks against that enemy unit equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the Inflict Damage step of the attack sequence during that fight.

Oh, right, you got to allocate them to the same unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's still ok as it adds around 1/3 damage against tougher targets with good invuls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or, to be more precise, it's your attack stabilizer. In case you roll poorly 1st time or the enemy gets too lucky, you got to make a lot of extra attacks. In case you got lucky and your opponent failed a lot of saves, you don't get much out of it.

Beardedragon wrote:
So... BBK dont even trigger unless all attacks reach one target? thats a bit annoying.

No, you pick targets before making any attacks. So if you have 6 attacks and two of those fail to hit, wound or are saved, you get to make another two attacks against the very same unit, irrespective of whether they still have model in engagement range.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
So... BBK dont even trigger unless all attacks reach one target? thats a bit annoying.

No, you pick targets before making any attacks. So if you have 6 attacks and two of those fail to hit, wound or are saved, you get to make another two attacks against the very same unit, irrespective of whether they still have model in engagement range.

ah. gotcha

 Bonde wrote:
Shoota boyz could really use some improvements, giving Trukkboyz' shooting -1 AP on the Speedwaagh turn while embarked would make them a lot more usable for supporting a light vehicle list.

it would take a helluva lot more than that to make Shoota boyz competitive.
So lets break it down. ATM 11 shoota boyz is 99pts. Against MEQ they average 1.2dmg Against GEQ they average 3.25dmg At 9' range (which sorry but this is useless) they average 1.8 and 4.8

Shooting wise a 5 Man intercessor squad is shooting 10 shots at 30' range (12' further than shoota boyz) and average 1.6ish vs MEQ and 3.7 against GEQ, and they are by no means the best shooting unit in the game and are in fact rarely if ever taken in lists. In actuality they are taken as 5 man Tax units to sit on an objective and plink wounds away at 30' range.

Kabelite Warriors for 100pts get 12.5 models and at 24' range average 8.3 hits, 4.16 wounds and against MEQ that is 1.38dmg and against GEQ its 2.7, importantly, their weapon is Poison so it always wounds on a 4. When you get within 12' range these guys double their dmg, so while still 3' further out than Dakka range for Shoota Boyz these kabalite warriors are dumping out 2.76dmg to MEQ and 5.4 to GEQ. These guys are taken in competitive games, albeit in skew lists. They are spammed as MSU Blaster delivery systems. The Drukhari player who finished 2nd at Last Summer/Winehammer GT took 12 units of them, all 5 man MSU with 1 blaster and a Phantasm Grenade Launcher on the Sybarite....which btw, Orkz are now going to get absolutely gutted by

Necron Immortals: 102pts gets you 6 models (These guys are overpriced) they get 6 shots at 30 or 12 at 15, At 30 its 4 hits, 2.6 wounds and 1.77dmg and at 15 its 3.54dmg vs MEQ, Vs GEQ its 2.6dmg and 5.2dmg. Still taken but necrons in general aren't in a great spot.

The Humble Guardsmen, for 110pts you get 20 Guardsmen (they come in bricks of 10)they get 20 shots at 24' and 40 at 12 with easy access to buffs for this. Regardless, Against MEQ its 1.1 at Max range and 2.2 at Half range, against GEQ its 3.33 and 6.66, and again, these guys are a tax unit usually, though there is 1 competitive IG player who routinely brings 10 bricks of them.

Skitarii Rangers: 96pts nets you 12 models which gets you 24 shots at 30' range which works out to 4dmg vs MEQ and 8.88 Vs GEQ. However, they also can self buff themselves to have +1BS which gives them 5dmg vs MEQ and 11.11 Vs GEQ. There is also little if any reason not to buff yourself with either +1BS or giving yourself a 3+ armor save which in cover becomes 2+.


So, all of these troops are better at shooting than Shoota boyz all of them are significantly more durable, especially when you factor in Morale. Even the guardsmen believe it or not. It takes 2.25 hits to kill 1 guardsmen who is worth roughly 5.5pts, it takes 3.6 hits to kill 1 shootaboy at 9ppm. *and guardsmen haven't received a codex yet. All of these guys are obsec and have longer ranged guns than the Shootaboy and the range to increase their RoF if they get an increase is 3-6' further away than Shootaboyz.

I just don't see any purpose for Shootaboyz since we have so many better shooting options which aren't as vulnerable to return fire and morale.

I think what's hurting the most is knowing that in 5th edition, it took 18 shots from 6pts Shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine (~15pts), wether it was in cover or not.

Now it takes 36 shots from 9pts Shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine (18pts), or 72 shots if he's in cover.

Between 5th and 9th edition, Marines gained a second wound for only 3pts while Shoota boyz became 50% more expensive. Marines thus became twice as durable, and the new cover rules again doubled their resistance.

You could argue that Tactical squads where underwhelming by then, but it still was one of the more balanced edition I can remember (before GK).

I think the old S4 AP- has no place in the game anymore, unless you can unleash hundreds of them or benefit from stupidly good special rules (Skitarii Vanguards...).

 Nym wrote:
I think what's hurting the most is knowing that in 5th edition, it took 18 shots from 6pts Shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine (~15pts), wether it was in cover or not.

Now it takes 36 shots from 9pts Shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine (18pts), or 72 shots if he's in cover.

Between 5th and 9th edition, Marines gained a second wound for only 3pts while Shoota boyz became 50% more expensive. Marines thus became twice as durable, and the new cover rules again doubled their resistance.

You could argue that Tactical squads where underwhelming by then, but it still was one of the more balanced edition I can remember (before GK).

I think the old S4 AP- has no place in the game anymore, unless you can unleash hundreds of them or benefit from stupidly good special rules (Skitarii Vanguards...).

Pretty much. And the only special rules i can think of that really benefit the dmg output for shoota boyz are Freeboota kulture and the +1 shot -1AP during a speedWaaaagh. And even that last part we still aren't sure yet since GW continued to be GW and wrote the rules ....interestingly to put it nicely.

Yeah. The arms race and durability increases in response to increasingly deadly weapons has made a lot of baseline infantry weapons largely irrelevant unless you have some way of boosting their damage through strats, army-wide abilities or if they're particularly upgunned in some way.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nym wrote:
I think what's hurting the most is knowing that in 5th edition, it took 18 shots from 6pts Shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine (~15pts), wether it was in cover or not.

Now it takes 36 shots from 9pts Shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine (18pts), or 72 shots if he's in cover.

Between 5th and 9th edition, Marines gained a second wound for only 3pts while Shoota boyz became 50% more expensive. Marines thus became twice as durable, and the new cover rules again doubled their resistance.

You could argue that Tactical squads where underwhelming by then, but it still was one of the more balanced edition I can remember (before GK).

I think the old S4 AP- has no place in the game anymore, unless you can unleash hundreds of them or benefit from stupidly good special rules (Skitarii Vanguards...).

Pretty much. And the only special rules i can think of that really benefit the dmg output for shoota boyz are Freeboota kulture and the +1 shot -1AP during a speedWaaaagh. And even that last part we still aren't sure yet since GW continued to be GW and wrote the rules ....interestingly to put it nicely.

And Bad Moon -AP on 6+ wounds

Beardedragon wrote:


And Bad Moon -AP on 6+ wounds

30 shoota boyz, in Dakka range, average 5 6+ to wound. 5. And all that does is -1AP. And that is also why Bad Moonz is in my opinion a trash tier Kulture. 90 shots nets you 5 -1AP on average, 5! Freeboota is +1 to hit if you kill a unit, so if they bring MSU like everyone is doing, all we need to do is ice one of those and poof 4+ to hit.

hi, so i am thinking about a list for my next game... nothing high competitive just trying stuff out for the first time with the new codex

going for double detachment freebooters with speedwaagh in mind

for anyone whos interested:


the only thing i am not sure of is my HQ's... well since i wanna run a speedwagh, bike or trike is a must (maybe both?) kinda leaning towards the trike, since the biker rules are kinda janky atm and i've recently scratchbuilded myself a trike

so that leaves the second option... dont really know what to do here... don't have a squigwarboss, so thats out of the question... do i field a biker missile or a tanky as gak megawarboss?
megawarboss seems like an mean beatstick. ard as nails combined with the supa cyborg or krushing armour just seems ridiculous. (could put it in the tankbusta trukk and bullie whatever tries to bully the trukk) but it lacks punchy power... so maybe get the biker? Killa klaw and junkboss to give it an invul? idk doesnt seem THAT good :/
maybe forgo CC at all and take a mek with shiny shoota?

any suggestions?

on a side note... is there ANY reason not to give the rig a beast mantle for a 5+++ ??!!
16 wounds T8 3+ AND a 5+++ seems kinda like an autotake
EDIT:
scrap that, just realized cant get it because its a vehicle

Sadly you can't take the beast mantle on a killrig as it's a vehicle.

The current relic rules are that unless it specifically allows it any given relic cannot be placed on a vehicle.

yeah found that out myself just 1min ago. now i am sad and at the same time relieved

It's a bit of a bummer for sure. Like killrigs having set traits sucks. A killrig with ard as nails would be super fun!

SemperMortis wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


And Bad Moon -AP on 6+ wounds

30 shoota boyz, in Dakka range, average 5 6+ to wound. 5. And all that does is -1AP. And that is also why Bad Moonz is in my opinion a trash tier Kulture. 90 shots nets you 5 -1AP on average, 5! Freeboota is +1 to hit if you kill a unit, so if they bring MSU like everyone is doing, all we need to do is ice one of those and poof 4+ to hit.

Freeboota can be a trap though. Some armies bring units that are not easy to kill, even with MSU style. Even drukhari units are quite tough (-1 to hit, invulns, deep strike, ability to hide and move long distances, ability to assault pretty soon, etc...) and in practise most of the freebota units won't get their +1 to hit as they need to trigger it first. Good luck with Deathguard and custodes.

Bad Moon trait shines on units that have already AP-1, AP-2 and/or have high rof with S5+ weapons. Rokkits, supa shootas, and big shootas/dakkaguns are the best candidates to get benefits from the kultur. It can also be combined with the dedicated stratagem that grants additional hits for 1CP. Shoota boyz are garbage for every klan .

And bad moon shoots further so your positioning is easier.

I would assume that when the range is increased, so is the dakka range?

From 18 to 24 shoota range, and 9 to 12 full dakka range? thats something as well.

On a different topic - what secondaries do you use for your buggy lists?

I'm a huge fan of Get da Good Bitz, because it can be performed by bikers and in many missions it will just default to the center objectives. Sometimes you can max it out to 9 VP in your first turn as you can have the action performed on multiple objectives at once.
If I feel like the mission, table setup or opponent will not allow me to perform those actions, it's always deploy tellyporta homers. The main reason for me once again is that it can be performed by warbikers (and infantry characters), but also because usually armies aren't strong at defending both midfield and their deployment zone.

In the same manner I pick engage on all front or behind enemy lines, so it's usually good bitz+engage or tellyporta homers+behind enemy lines.

Third one is a bit difficult. First stop are the obvious ones like assassinate, titan hunter or abhor if they can easily be maxed or a least score 9+ VP. Afterwards, I usually pick No Prisoners if my opponent has a wound count of ~100 or more or Bring it Down if you can reliably score 8VP with it, always assuming that out of four enemy vehicles I will fail to kill one.
If all that fails, you just pick whatever gets you the most VP, with my favorite one being assassinate as almost every army can still give up 10 VP from that, and there isn't really a huge downside to focusing on taking out the enemy warlord and support characters.

Yes dakka range is increased as well.

One big thing i've just noticed. With the wording changes you can trigger the freebootaz trait with units that arn't on the table. Like those in transports!

Toying with the idea of the bunkers deepstriking in. Since the wording of their gaze could let you hit characters in some situations. Fill them up with some burna boyz or even skorcha nobs and it'd be a blast.

The bunker can't have a culture, it can only trigger it for others.

The bunker also can never be put in strategic reserves due to the core book faq

starscream17 wrote:
The bunker also can never be put in strategic reserves due to the core book faq

It can use the tellyporta stratagem which isn't strategic reserves, so that doesn't really matter.

starscream17 wrote:
The bunker also can never be put in strategic reserves due to the core book faq

that part is not fully correct necessarily by being a fortification but also behaving more like a drop pod by having wounds and so on, as well as having vehicle keyword.

Its own open topped ability that states embarked units are considered as having not moved if they started inside the bunker (and didnt move in first), also only makes sense if you tellyport it on to the battlefield given that it cant move otherwise, and tellyporting would be its only way of moving. further hinting at the idea that you actually can tellyport it in.

We need an FAQ to clarify things. like so many other things in the codex.

Actually, that part is quite clear and doesn't need a FAQ whatsoever.

The only issue with the "ork drop pod" is having to stay away 3" from other terrain - which isn't unclear either, as that rule was specifically introduced to prevent shenanigans with deep striking Feculent Gnarlmaws walling off other armies.

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, that part is quite clear and doesn't need a FAQ whatsoever.

The only issue with the "ork drop pod" is having to stay away 3" from other terrain - which isn't unclear either, as that rule was specifically introduced to prevent shenanigans with deep striking Feculent Gnarlmaws walling off other armies.

Yea staying 9" away from enemy and also 3" from terrain is clucky as

eeeh.. what actually happens if you make your warlord Trukk boys?

What stratagems and relics are you allowed to use? None klan specific only? Or is your warlord still somehow tied to, lets say, goff while being trukk boys?

Beardedragon wrote:
eeeh.. what actually happens if you make your warlord Trukk boys?

What stratagems and relics are you allowed to use? None klan specific only? Or is your warlord still somehow tied to, lets say, goff while being trukk boys?

Assuming it works the way its supposed to (you swap the keyword), then you're only allowed the generic ones like you said. They would lose whatever Klan keyword they had originally and the warboss aura would only affect himself and other Trukk Boyz.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
eeeh.. what actually happens if you make your warlord Trukk boys?

What stratagems and relics are you allowed to use? None klan specific only? Or is your warlord still somehow tied to, lets say, goff while being trukk boys?

Assuming it works the way its supposed to (you swap the keyword), then you're only allowed the generic ones like you said. They would lose whatever Klan keyword they had originally and the warboss aura would only affect himself and other Trukk Boyz.

i figured that would be the thing.

Otherwise i was considering having two warboss as trukk boys specialist lads in 2 trukks, and throw maybe some tankbustas or something inside the trukks for the +1 to hit that he gives the trukk, which is then given to the occupants.

I thought of the warlord as specialist ladz because hes a single model so i could fill up the rest of the trukk with flash gitz or tankbustas. The +1 to hit would then mitigate the fact you are moving and they are heavy weapons. I dont recall any singular models who have "Nobz" keyword that could do the same so warboss was my best guess.

But that would mean 1 warboss per detatchment. Realistically speaking this is only feasable with 1 trukk boys detatchment since you dont want a trukk boys warlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually i just found a tiny loop hole to my own issue. The Nob With Waagh banner has Nob keyword so HE could function as trukkboys, giving +1 to hit to the trukk who then gives it to the flash gitz or tankbustas.

This is interesting. Ofc an FAQ could deem this to be.. not how its intended but atm it is and atm i think it will work after the FAQ too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but im assuming you cant use bomb squigs from an open topped transport? It is an ability after all.