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Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Vineheart01 wrote:
Ork players tend to be extremely dedicated to their army. Theres a reason ork armies have so much character to them most of the time.

It's also worth noting that almost all ork players placing highly in tournaments are people who we have seen doing well with orks before. It's good to see that all these guys stuck with the green ladz and are now utelizing the much better codex.

Also i just have to point this out...
STOMPA ISNT RED!!! ITS A MIRACLE!!!
(still sucks major balls butt its useable now)


It is also worth noting that the red section in general shrunk a lot compared to the previous thread (almost exclusively characters left here!) and the "colors" are also more evenly spread across the kultures. While it's truely no more than a first draft before the meta settled down, it feels like internal balance is greatly improved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
XC18 wrote:
You could mention the Big Krumpaz Specialist Mob.
For Gorkanaut I think it is good, since a single naut can't get the clan benefits anyway, no reason not to make it a specialist. On Smash profile that gets you 15 attacks on 2+.


Ah, I meant to add that, will add it later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
shogun wrote:
"Forgeworld Kill Tank: no culture"

Is this correct? I believe the do have <clan>...


The core rules remove detachment rules from units in a SHA - kultures are a detachment rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:
Tiers are quite arguable ATM.

Isn't the list being arguable is the whole point of starting a new thread with it?

Blitza bomber being better than a burns bomber - another questionable thing. Burna can shoot better and bombs aren't great for any of them anyway. Burna is also cheaper.

The bombs of the blitza bommer are vastly better, especially against elite armies. The burna bommer's bombs work differently and there isn't really any army you would pick them against that you can't just gun down much more efficiently with a much more flexible dakkajet.

Blood axes culture being red - totally disagree, so do tourney results that show that there are a lot of blood axe buggies that perform great in tourney meta due to fall back + shoot or charge. It's also great for kommandoes. I think red is just op's personal view on the matter which is not objective.

"A lot"? Mind backing up that claim?
For the one guy I saw doing well with blood axes, he said he mainly picked them for the redeployment shenanigans, and that he will drop them next time.

Grots being worse than boyz is also quite questionable. There are too many situations when you want cheaper troops. Grots are better in this regard.

A unit isn't good just because it's the cheapest crap option. Gretchin essentially are terrible at every task you could possibly want them for, you are buying them to pay less CP for detachments.

I also want to point out that you are very closely focusing on the current tournament meta which is all about defeating admech and drukhari. Most people's metas aren't as heavily warped as top tournament play is, and this list is supposed to be for everyone. Anyone trying to play top tournament meta should not be taking hints from a one-dimensional list anyways

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/21 12:35:15


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






I initially thought the dakkajet was bad, but with the freebooter +1 to hit I have to admit I was wrong. Also freebooter trait is a lot easier to trigger than I initially thought, mainly because 3 sguigbuggies are a lot more powerful than I first thought, and because nearly all armies need cheap stuff to do actions.
Time will tell but I think the freebooter trait and dakkajets should go in green, as tournament results currently seem to indicate (emphasis on « seem »)

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

 addnid wrote:
I initially thought the dakkajet was bad, but with the freebooter +1 to hit I have to admit I was wrong. Also freebooter trait is a lot easier to trigger than I initially thought, mainly because 3 sguigbuggies are a lot more powerful than I first thought, and because nearly all armies need cheap stuff to do actions.
Time will tell but I think the freebooter trait and dakkajets should go in green, as tournament results currently seem to indicate (emphasis on « seem »)


Dakkajet is really good at what it does, squishing already squishy infantry, but it bounces off everything else too much to be a "must take" option
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Jidmah wrote:


Blood axes culture being red - totally disagree, so do tourney results that show that there are a lot of blood axe buggies that perform great in tourney meta due to fall back + shoot or charge. It's also great for kommandoes. I think red is just op's personal view on the matter which is not objective.

"A lot"? Mind backing up that claim?
For the one guy I saw doing well with blood axes, he said he mainly picked them for the redeployment shenanigans, and that he will drop them next time.

Grots being worse than boyz is also quite questionable. There are too many situations when you want cheaper troops. Grots are better in this regard.

A unit isn't good just because it's the cheapest crap option. Gretchin essentially are terrible at every task you could possibly want them for, you are buying them to pay less CP for detachments.


I think i've seen 2 lists from top 3 running blood axe buggies. That's like 1/3 of all top ork lists so far
Blood axes are on par or even better than others clans vs armies with fast mellee that just ties you up. That's all types of elves, nids, gsc, Csm with warptime or dragons and pods. Also, custodes that are not as fast but are too tough. Those armies can tie up any unit they want and simple bigshootas with -1 to hit will not be enough to deal with them if you get to 2d. Blood axe kommandoes are also great for 3+ turn scoring in the open when the opponent can't get closer and simply doesn't have enough firepower to reliably kill 3+ armored orks.
I fail to see it being Red. It's green vs this matchups and yellow vs others.

As for grots, you need troops that simply sit behind blos, score secondaeies and perform actions. Doing this with a 50 pt squad is better than with a 90 pt squad.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/21 13:31:47


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




This is a great post. The only thing that stands out as strange to me is the Snakebite strat being green. Deny is super unreliably and having to contest it on the strat is bad. Similar strats elsewhere are a deny on a 4+. The strat will get use because our strats are terrible, but the majority of the time it'll just be throwing a CP away.
   
Made in ca
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





The Frozen North

You don't have to commit to the CP expenditure until you've seen the results of the Psychic test - deny on a 4+ is a 50% chance to work, clearly, but deny on 2d6 can have better odds than that, especially as you can reroll it with additional CP in a pinch.

Anytime someone has barely squeaked off a psychic power, or a psychic action, you can pounce. And since it's a regular deny, its existence may bait your opponent into blowing CP on rerolling that 4 they rolled on Warp Ritual.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

The Killtank kulture thing is referring to the Superheavy Aux detachment, which is denied detachment rules per core rules.
Killtanks are one of the extremely few LoWs that are cheap enough to bring 3 in a Superheavy Detachment so they would get kulture benefits there, but its 6cp which is painful.

GW seriously needs to revamp LoW stuff

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




United Kingdom

 addnid wrote:
I initially thought the dakkajet was bad, but with the freebooter +1 to hit I have to admit I was wrong. Also freebooter trait is a lot easier to trigger than I initially thought, mainly because 3 sguigbuggies are a lot more powerful than I first thought, and because nearly all armies need cheap stuff to do actions.
Time will tell but I think the freebooter trait and dakkajets should go in green, as tournament results currently seem to indicate (emphasis on « seem »)


my opinion is still undecided on the dakka jet but i am leaning towards freebooter hype train,
blast means opponents are bringing smaller units, easier to kill and orks are killy in general.
the detachment ability benefits all units - unlike snakebits which tend to benefit squigs or goffs which benefit melee, badmoons which benefit shooting.

Its also stackable if you kill more than 1 - this will offset negatives like stealth or dense terrain.

it's warlord trait is a miss

but the stratagem and relic could be key to winning a game

SMASH  
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 MinMax wrote:
You don't have to commit to the CP expenditure until you've seen the results of the Psychic test - deny on a 4+ is a 50% chance to work, clearly, but deny on 2d6 can have better odds than that, especially as you can reroll it with additional CP in a pinch.

Anytime someone has barely squeaked off a psychic power, or a psychic action, you can pounce. And since it's a regular deny, its existence may bait your opponent into blowing CP on rerolling that 4 they rolled on Warp Ritual.


That's all true, but a 4+ works 50% of the time on any cast. There are situations where it's worse, sure. I think it's a nice strat to have, but I don't think it's one of the best strats in the book, it's way too situational and unreliable.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 addnid wrote:
I initially thought the dakkajet was bad, but with the freebooter +1 to hit I have to admit I was wrong. Also freebooter trait is a lot easier to trigger than I initially thought, mainly because 3 sguigbuggies are a lot more powerful than I first thought, and because nearly all armies need cheap stuff to do actions.
Time will tell but I think the freebooter trait and dakkajets should go in green, as tournament results currently seem to indicate (emphasis on « seem »)


Agree on the dakkajet.

For the freebootas I chose to keep it at the same tier as it was before, because the issue with the trait has never been the now removed 24" but that you actually have absolutely no trait when you fail to kill something.

If armies like knights, custodes, death guard or deathwing would be more present in the meta, there would be a real chance of not triggering any bonus until almost everything has shot.

That said, nothing is set in stone. Once the top builds have been established and the meta has reacted to orks, I will update the list as usual - which is a whole lot less work that initially setting it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
shabadoit wrote:
This is a great post. The only thing that stands out as strange to me is the Snakebite strat being green. Deny is super unreliably and having to contest it on the strat is bad. Similar strats elsewhere are a deny on a 4+. The strat will get use because our strats are terrible, but the majority of the time it'll just be throwing a CP away.


You can literally use the stratagem at any time, so you can wait for the final result. Any time you find that a deny is not worth your CP or that your opponent has rolled too high you can just not spend a CP. It is also worth noting that deny the witch rolls can be re-rolled with a command re-roll, 4+ stratagems cannot.
Essentially this stratagem is almost the same as having an army-wide deny but you only need to pay for it when you use it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/21 15:50:01


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Lootas just got worse pt for pt than last edition but went up a grade.... Can you explain that?

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

worse? explain how they got worse pt for pt when their shots are no longer random and their cost went down?
i'd be more curious how you came to that conclusion than Jid explaining why they went up a tier.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas just got worse pt for pt than last edition but went up a grade.... Can you explain that?


Loots were obviously better given the totality of last codex (loota bomb) but imo they ate in a generally better spot if you just throw a unit down on the table and try to use them.

Freebootas is competitive now, which gets them up to approximately the damage they'd be doing with old Showin Off while spending 0cp. They're worse than other options in the dex but they're more useful than they were a couple months ago.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in it
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna






Grots are terrible because they fill a troops spot not doing the main thing any other troops does, ObSec. For 5 pts more you can take a unit of kommandos DS that do anything 10 grots can do but better. Also using a rare resource as specialist mob on them is a crime. Trukkboyz are better in any shape or form.

BA shouldn't be red because is better than before, by the possibility to fall back and shoot/charge and incredible reserve manipulation, by strat and WT. Finally their relic is the only way to gain CP for Orks and can be taken by a any character.

Which leads to Mek being somehow a tiny better than before, since he can have the Finkin Cap and just farm CP together for with a mek gunz that can be repaired every turn. Possibly.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Hey guys, I'm thinking of trying out a list with Flash Gitz with Badrukk ideally and I'm not entirely sure where to go about this. Badrukk's reroll one's will definitely help their efficiency but the main problem is the relative short range and heavy weapon nature of Flash Gitz making them want to use transports but at the same time not move in them. I'm debating using the big 'ead bossbunka for them since tellyporting them down lets them fire at full efficiency while also giving them cost-effective protection. The only problem is then Badrukk can't affect them with his aura and the other issue is that I won't be able to use the 2CP shoot again strat with them. I feel like Flash Gitz are in a really weird spot in terms of how they want to be set up, especially since now grot shields is more expensive as a strat and grots in general got a whole lot worse.

Any thoughts?
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Flash gits are too expensive and fragile and d2 is not even close to how good it used to be a year ago.

They can be used in min squads in trukks or as a large squad marching behind grots. Ideally, ran as freebootas with +1 triggered twice or bdmoons on smaller maps.

Yeah, they have a strategem to shoot twice but it's whooping 2 cp and targets closest enemy. And can't be used from a transport, so you need to walk on foot and you need a grotshield or an evil sun battlewagon moving blos which is, well, a whole wagon and 1cp.

If I had to run them, I'd go for 5-man squads in trukks. Sarges have free +1 to hit and you won't waste tons of cp and extra pts on grot shields. Freebootas in 1k+ games with mandatory couple of squig buggies to trigger +1 to hit. In smaller games, probably bad moons.

I don't see large footslogging squads working in even semi-competitive games atm. Just too expensive, too fragile and require too much to work well. You're better off with tankbustas or even lootas for the price. It's odd they're marked as good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/21 19:23:44


 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Nope, there is 100% no reason to run big mobs other than the optional secondary objective.

Which is a really dumb way to balance an army but whatever. Introduce tons of ways to hurt hordes, then remove the reason hordes want to exist in the first place. Wouldnt be surprised if tyranid gaunts have some weird change to make them never want big blobs again

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nope, there is 100% no reason to run big mobs other than the optional secondary objective.

Which is a really dumb way to balance an army but whatever. Introduce tons of ways to hurt hordes, then remove the reason hordes want to exist in the first place. Wouldnt be surprised if tyranid gaunts have some weird change to make them never want big blobs again


Yeah, GW has made it very clear they hate efficient chaff/horde units with the way they've been methodically neuteuring cultists, conscripts, grots, boyz and other conventional horde style units. Barring the outliers of guys like skitarii, they've taken away the incentive to take larger units and I feel like they could have balanced it a bit more so that it's not like it's a complete waste of time rather than it being the only choice to take boyz like before.

Also, thanks for the feedback regarding Flash Gitz. In that case, it seems like Badrukk is kinda pointless as a support character given how untenable taking a footslogging squad is. I usually play 1500+ games so I'll probably be aiming more for Freebootas rather than Bad Moonz in terms of klan choice.
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

 Grimskul wrote:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nope, there is 100% no reason to run big mobs other than the optional secondary objective.

Which is a really dumb way to balance an army but whatever. Introduce tons of ways to hurt hordes, then remove the reason hordes want to exist in the first place. Wouldnt be surprised if tyranid gaunts have some weird change to make them never want big blobs again


Yeah, GW has made it very clear they hate efficient chaff/horde units with the way they've been methodically neuteuring cultists, conscripts, grots, boyz and other conventional horde style units. Barring the outliers of guys like skitarii, they've taken away the incentive to take larger units and I feel like they could have balanced it a bit more so that it's not like it's a complete waste of time rather than it being the only choice to take boyz like before.

Also, thanks for the feedback regarding Flash Gitz. In that case, it seems like Badrukk is kinda pointless as a support character given how untenable taking a footslogging squad is. I usually play 1500+ games so I'll probably be aiming more for Freebootas rather than Bad Moonz in terms of klan choice.


And im going to laugh if they suddenly bring back Squats as a marine horde and suddenly THAT horde unit is actually stupid strong lol

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nope, there is 100% no reason to run big mobs other than the optional secondary objective.

Which is a really dumb way to balance an army but whatever. Introduce tons of ways to hurt hordes, then remove the reason hordes want to exist in the first place. Wouldnt be surprised if tyranid gaunts have some weird change to make them never want big blobs again


Are there seriously people relying on big blobs of gaunts to do stuff in a competitive meta with Tyranids? Last I checked, it was mostly MSU Gargoyle to grab objectives or devilgaunts bombs here and there (and even then).

Orks still have a solid shot at horde, it's just light vehicles horde instead of boyz hordes and its not huge mobz, but multiple smaller ones. You still see a lot of boyz, but specialists ones like Kommandos, Stormboyz, Burna Boyz and the odd Slugga Boyz troop tax.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Vineheart01 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nope, there is 100% no reason to run big mobs other than the optional secondary objective.

Which is a really dumb way to balance an army but whatever. Introduce tons of ways to hurt hordes, then remove the reason hordes want to exist in the first place. Wouldnt be surprised if tyranid gaunts have some weird change to make them never want big blobs again


Yeah, GW has made it very clear they hate efficient chaff/horde units with the way they've been methodically neuteuring cultists, conscripts, grots, boyz and other conventional horde style units. Barring the outliers of guys like skitarii, they've taken away the incentive to take larger units and I feel like they could have balanced it a bit more so that it's not like it's a complete waste of time rather than it being the only choice to take boyz like before.

Also, thanks for the feedback regarding Flash Gitz. In that case, it seems like Badrukk is kinda pointless as a support character given how untenable taking a footslogging squad is. I usually play 1500+ games so I'll probably be aiming more for Freebootas rather than Bad Moonz in terms of klan choice.


And im going to laugh if they suddenly bring back Squats as a marine horde and suddenly THAT horde unit is actually stupid strong lol


Honestly, given how their constant updates/additions to the SM line have resulted in the army's schtick becoming stealing other army traits (i.e. the aspect warrior-ization of primaris units becoming specialists rather than generalists like most firstborn units are) I wouldn't be surprised if the Black Templar supplement makes marine hordes a thing with revamped Crusader squads being the new gold standard for a horde unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nope, there is 100% no reason to run big mobs other than the optional secondary objective.

Which is a really dumb way to balance an army but whatever. Introduce tons of ways to hurt hordes, then remove the reason hordes want to exist in the first place. Wouldnt be surprised if tyranid gaunts have some weird change to make them never want big blobs again


Are there seriously people relying on big blobs of gaunts to do stuff in a competitive meta with Tyranids? Last I checked, it was mostly MSU Gargoyle to grab objectives or devilgaunts bombs here and there (and even then).

Orks still have a solid shot at horde, it's just light vehicles horde instead of boyz hordes and its not huge mobz, but multiple smaller ones. You still see a lot of boyz, but specialists ones like Kommandos, Stormboyz, Burna Boyz and the odd Slugga Boyz troop tax.


I wouldn't really consider 10 man unit spam of Ork boyz and specialists a "horde" army in the conventional sense. You'll barely outnumber the enemy barring hyper elite armies like Custodes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/21 20:49:44


 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

The scrapjet dont have 4 big shootas, they have 2 twin big shootas. Its important for speed waagh purposes as I believe they only get +2 extra dakka shots, for being 2 guns, rather than +4 for having 4 big shootas

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Disclaimer: I know this won't compete with buggies & squigosaurs, but it's a combo I'll try once I've painted up my battlewagon and don't see why it's under red / yellow in the OP

Bonebreaka with Red Rolla that arrives safely from a Tellyporta on turn 2, and makes a virtually guaranteed (~92%) charge via Ramming Speed. Then it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on a 2+, followed by 10-12 attacks at WS2+ S9 AP-2 D2. On average that's 6+ MEQ's or a potentially deadly amount of damage to any medium vehicle.
Then you have a Ramshackle T8 W16 3+ vehicle with a solid threat range for turn 3, as well as disembark a unit for additional damage / midboard control.

Is 4CP & 195pts badly overcosted for that?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 xttz wrote:
Disclaimer: I know this won't compete with buggies & squigosaurs, but it's a combo I'll try once I've painted up my battlewagon and don't see why it's under red / yellow in the OP

Bonebreaka with Red Rolla that arrives safely from a Tellyporta on turn 2, and makes a virtually guaranteed (~92%) charge via Ramming Speed. Then it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on a 2+, followed by 10-12 attacks at WS2+ S9 AP-2 D2. On average that's 6+ MEQ's or a potentially deadly amount of damage to any medium vehicle.
Then you have a Ramshackle T8 W16 3+ vehicle with a solid threat range for turn 3, as well as disembark a unit for additional damage / midboard control.

Is 4CP & 195pts badly overcosted for that?


It certainly interesting though I wonder what unit would benefit most from being inside such a Bonebreaka. My first intuition would be Burna boyz for some nasty shooting should there be infantry in the area though that would be very expansive and not use the full transport capacity of the Bonebreaka.

On another note, am I crazy or did GW removed the Battlewagon entirely from its webstore?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 koooaei wrote:
Flash gits are too expensive and fragile and d2 is not even close to how good it used to be a year ago.

I don't see large footslogging squads working in even semi-competitive games atm. Just too expensive, too fragile and require too much to work well. You're better off with tankbustas or even lootas for the price. It's odd they're marked as good.


Agree in principle.

I think the problem is that they are paying for (and I think this applies to Tankbustas and Lootas too) the potential buff stacking you can apply to them. 24" range isn't that great perhaps - but its not impossible to imagine a situation (at least in the semi-competitive games I usually play) where you can deploy them forward and central into cover (preferably somewhere elevated) which gives them good fire lanes covering a range of mid-table and your zone objectives and a 3+ save. With say the Freeboota trait and shooting twice (sure 2 CP is 2 CP, but I think if you have the opportunity for 15-30 more shots at BS3+ early game you are taking it) the probable damage output is rising to incredible levels.

In a competitive game though there probably won't be that sort of terrain set up. On foot your opponent will almost certainly just LOS the unit out until they decide to kill it. In a Trukk you'll drive up, get off one volley at BS5+, kind of meh (I guess Freebootas but its still a bit meh), then the Trukk will be destroyed and almost certainly along with the Flash Gitz inside. Even at 5 that's too many points to go "oh well never mind" - at 10 it feels game losing. Would you ever take this over the equivalent points in buggies, dakkajets etc? I don't think so. Does that necessarily mean Flash Gitz should get a points reduction? Maybe - but you are making the above even more ludicrous if it ever happens.

I also tend to think they should have got Choppas. Not really sure this changes anything - but given their points it feels a bit "why not". "But the models tho" - well, just use your imagination.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas just got worse pt for pt than last edition but went up a grade.... Can you explain that?


Loots were obviously better given the totality of last codex (loota bomb) but imo they ate in a generally better spot if you just throw a unit down on the table and try to use them.

Freebootas is competitive now, which gets them up to approximately the damage they'd be doing with old Showin Off while spending 0cp. They're worse than other options in the dex but they're more useful than they were a couple months ago.


right...but you could do the same thing with the 8th edition codex by putting them in a freeboota list, only difference was they had to be within 24' of the unit that killed something. Not exactly hard to do honestly. So again, they just got worse, but went up a grade. It doesn't make sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




United Kingdom

epronovost wrote:
 xttz wrote:
Disclaimer: I know this won't compete with buggies & squigosaurs, but it's a combo I'll try once I've painted up my battlewagon and don't see why it's under red / yellow in the OP

Bonebreaka with Red Rolla that arrives safely from a Tellyporta on turn 2, and makes a virtually guaranteed (~92%) charge via Ramming Speed. Then it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on a 2+, followed by 10-12 attacks at WS2+ S9 AP-2 D2. On average that's 6+ MEQ's or a potentially deadly amount of damage to any medium vehicle.
Then you have a Ramshackle T8 W16 3+ vehicle with a solid threat range for turn 3, as well as disembark a unit for additional damage / midboard control.

Is 4CP & 195pts badly overcosted for that?


It certainly interesting though I wonder what unit would benefit most from being inside such a Bonebreaka. My first intuition would be Burna boyz for some nasty shooting should there be infantry in the area though that would be very expansive and not use the full transport capacity of the Bonebreaka.

On another note, am I crazy or did GW removed the Battlewagon entirely from its webstore?


problem bone breakers have is they get compared to kill rigs.
and other than the transport aspect, kill rigs are just better

SMASH  
   
Made in de
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SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas just got worse pt for pt than last edition but went up a grade.... Can you explain that?


I'm not sure why exactly you think they are worse? They got cheaper, can move and shoot, gained T5, are more reliable and get 50% more shots at 24" than before. Heck, even grot shield is more reliable at protecting them now, even though it still sucks with 5pt gretchin.

Yes, mandatory spannaz, but both KMB and big shoota are decent options as they unit can now finally move instead of having to sit in a corner and or lose half their shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Emicrania wrote:
BA shouldn't be red because is better than before, by the possibility to fall back and shoot/charge and incredible reserve manipulation, by strat and WT. Finally their relic is the only way to gain CP for Orks and can be taken by a any character.

Only the kultur is red, not the entire clan. I did not put any colors on clans as a whole, because for one I think they are all fairly close to each other and many of them are situational and second it's a bit too early to decide that for all of them.

Which leads to Mek being somehow a tiny better than before, since he can have the Finkin Cap and just farm CP together for with a mek gunz that can be repaired every turn. Possibly.

I feel like we have this discussion every time I write a new list
You could just put the relic on a character that actually does something and not give away free assassination points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 xttz wrote:
Disclaimer: I know this won't compete with buggies & squigosaurs, but it's a combo I'll try once I've painted up my battlewagon and don't see why it's under red / yellow in the OP

Bonebreaka with Red Rolla that arrives safely from a Tellyporta on turn 2, and makes a virtually guaranteed (~92%) charge via Ramming Speed. Then it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on a 2+, followed by 10-12 attacks at WS2+ S9 AP-2 D2. On average that's 6+ MEQ's or a potentially deadly amount of damage to any medium vehicle.
Then you have a Ramshackle T8 W16 3+ vehicle with a solid threat range for turn 3, as well as disembark a unit for additional damage / midboard control.

Is 4CP & 195pts badly overcosted for that?


Well, it kind of is? Essentially you are paying an extra 60 points to make an extra 3+d3 attacks with the deff rolla, and only if you get the charge. If you just deep struck a barebone battlewagon with 4 burnas and a KMB spanna inside, you would get almost the same results, but you would have two units.

I have no idea why GW made both the gun wagon and the bonebreaka so much more expensive than the regular battlewagon, but it does make them quite bad in comparison.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/22 02:22:20


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What I like about the burna bommer is that it is a great way to destroy large squads taking advantage of cover to boost their survivability. I feel it helps out an ork army in an area where it can struggle which is dealing with mass 2+ armor saves.

Granted I can also see matchups where the burna bommer might not have a prime target, but it can also wreck your opponents scoring plans

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/22 02:45:48


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 kingbbobb wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 xttz wrote:
Disclaimer: I know this won't compete with buggies & squigosaurs, but it's a combo I'll try once I've painted up my battlewagon and don't see why it's under red / yellow in the OP

Bonebreaka with Red Rolla that arrives safely from a Tellyporta on turn 2, and makes a virtually guaranteed (~92%) charge via Ramming Speed. Then it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on a 2+, followed by 10-12 attacks at WS2+ S9 AP-2 D2. On average that's 6+ MEQ's or a potentially deadly amount of damage to any medium vehicle.
Then you have a Ramshackle T8 W16 3+ vehicle with a solid threat range for turn 3, as well as disembark a unit for additional damage / midboard control.

Is 4CP & 195pts badly overcosted for that?


It certainly interesting though I wonder what unit would benefit most from being inside such a Bonebreaka. My first intuition would be Burna boyz for some nasty shooting should there be infantry in the area though that would be very expansive and not use the full transport capacity of the Bonebreaka.

On another note, am I crazy or did GW removed the Battlewagon entirely from its webstore?


problem bone breakers have is they get compared to kill rigs.
and other than the transport aspect, kill rigs are just better


That's a tough place to be. Kill Rigs are probably a solid contender for best heavy tank in the game I would say. While the Bonebreaka isn't as good in most circumstances, the idea of kingbbobb might actually be valuable when facing some particularly elite units that the Kill Rig would struggle against in close combat. It's quite situational though.
   
 
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