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What I’m thinking is would we be in a better place fluff and game wise if GW had written the traitor legions largely out of the story by having them slowly join the black legion over the time between the end of the HH and now.

I love the traitor legions and CSM but I don’t think GW has ever really done them justice. Codex CSM has always been more like codex black legion paying lip service to the rest of the legions and I know we have DG and TS codexes but I think that really added to the frustration of not having at least EC and WE codex.

I just think by now we’d be in a better place, all the same characters and units but the world of CSM would be more unified and better catered for.

No.

Unity, especially aesthetic uniformity, is the exact opposite of what things should be for Chaos (or any interplanetary faction, really). The galaxy is a big place with thousands upon thousands of varying traitorous forces from small pirate warbands to more organised legions. Having them assimilated under Black Legion would be as annoying as having Ultramarines pop up at every major theatre of war in the entire galaxy. That is bad writing.

HELL no. The Traitor Legions are absolutely not "unified" under the Black Legion, and they shouldn't be. Having all of the Chaos Legions being essentially "one thing" would go against the very concept of the faction. As for gw "never doing them justice", go take a look at CSM 3.5, or the Traitor Legions supplement. They can do it just fine, they just have to try.

I shudder at the logic of 'well, justice hasn't been done, best just be rid of the outliers.'

God, no.

Any time a media article has a question in its headline the answer is always “no”. This one is no different.

Obvious bait is obvious

I would meet you in the middle but 3.5 did okay so it's possible.

Meeting in the middle:

Full Codexs: BL, WB, WE, DG, TS and EC.

Characters & Army rules Only: Iron Warriors

Special/Elite units and characters Only: Night Lords and Alpha Legion. Raptors, Commandos, Assassins etc

Basically the ones with the codexes are either the most unique or the most practical on a battlefront game of larger scales.

IW can have characters and army rules tacked onto the BL codex as the two would largely share models/units with army composition, colour and faction rules different.

AL & NL are cool af but don't really work as concepts within large scales games, so i'd just reduce them to mercenary type units that can support any legion from an CU perspective.

No. The more the merrier. This is critical to all worldbuilding. Flavours of Traitor Legions is a great point of 40k, and to be treasured.

They should have just given them proper model support in the way of Upgrade packs or Forgeworld.
GWs CSM model line overall is focused on Black Legion / Word Bearers, most kits don't represent marks well and instead give you Marines with spikes and some mutations. You can also represent Iron Warriors pretty well through HH MK3, FW tanks and Daemon engines.
Alpha Legion and Nightlords? They're a little left behind, just like newly turned Renegades and Emperor's Children.
World Eaters got some nice Upgrade packs through FW in the past. TS and DG have their own lines nowadays.

Ruleswize? 3.5 and Traitor Legions in 7th showed it's possible to give them proper rules, and I'd say since 8th we aren't in a bad spot overall, it's just limited by GWs stupid no model no rules philosophy which seems to hurt CSM more than anybody else. Traitor Legions aren't easily handled by throwing some keywords around and practically erasing Mark of Chaos undivided was a very bad decision, because IW, AL, NL don't really work without it (we still don't know what happened to Perturabo or Lorgar, did they suddenly switch to 1 god to become Daemon Princes?).

Just some random thoughts

I just don’t think we will ever be given the model or rules to properly run most of the traitor legions. We will see soon as the new CSM codex is coming out but I’ve lost faith that it will have any big surprises, despite GW promising them, because GW have become one of those companies that over hypes everything and then underwhelms.

I just feel like if they had consolidated CSM years ago then it wouldn’t be as good as the dream of being able to run any traitor legion with models and rules but it might be better than what we have now

mrFickle wrote:
I just don’t think we will ever be given the model or rules to properly run most of the traitor legions. We will see soon as the new CSM codex is coming out but I’ve lost faith that it will have any big surprises, despite GW promising them, because GW have become one of those companies that over hypes everything and then underwhelms.

I just feel like if they had consolidated CSM years ago then it wouldn’t be as good as the dream of being able to run any traitor legion with models and rules but it might be better than what we have now

Again you're ignoring that they've gotten it at least "mostly" right twice in the past. 3.5 and Traitor Legions weren't perfect, but they both managed to make the Legions pretty distinct from each other, and in very "fluffy" ways. And I disagree that we don't currently have the models to do it right. It's subjective, as most things like this are, but between the current plastic kits and fw, I have everything I need for my "traditional" Night Lords. It's mostly just a rules problem IMHO. And if they managed to get them mostly right twice before, then they can do it again.

So basically what they have done with R&H...

Yea, if you want a mass exodus of players of the second largest faction to my knowledge, this right here is the way to go.
When we are at it, feth the BL the worst written legion of them all with failbadon the (h)-armless, why shouldn't we just use the SM codex, atleast that one has options.

People can paint and convert their models in any way they like, this has never been a problem. Homogenizing the background would be a massive problem.

Like Gadzilla666 points out, GW has done Chaos well multiple times, particularily during the 3.5 era. If anything, the current "there's only support if there are bespoke models for every existing idea" is the thing holding some hobbyists back. I would rather see artistically interesting ideas in the fluff that can then be drawn on for interesting army projects by individual hobbyists.

 Sherrypie wrote:
People can paint and convert their models in any way they like, this has never been a problem. Homogenizing the background would be a massive problem.

Like Gadzilla666 points out, GW has done Chaos well multiple times, particularily during the 3.5 era. If anything, the current "there's only support if there are bespoke models for every existing idea" is the thing holding some hobbyists back. I would rather see artistically interesting ideas in the fluff that can then be drawn on for interesting army projects by individual hobbyists.

overall i agree with that sentiment HOWEVER:

Rules can facilitate that, customizable rules that is.

Alas we don't get that and recent rules and leaks are going ever more restrictive on what you can and or do to a modell, and when there is "no -reason -ruleswise" to convert, many talented converters just don't feel inclined to do so, definetly helped by higher prices.

Not Online!!! wrote:

overall i agree with that sentiment HOWEVER:

Rules can facilitate that, customizable rules that is.

Alas we don't get that and recent rules and leaks are going ever more restrictive on what you can and or do to a modell, and when there is "no -reason -ruleswise" to convert, many talented converters just don't feel inclined to do so, definetly helped by higher prices.

Yeah, naturally customizable rules are a better fit for these things. Good 40k rules would promote that. Codex 3.5 with worst excesses filed off would be an amazing product, if we were ever to see such a glorious beast again.

Yet even then, even if the current load-ups veer towards more restrictions than sense, having a wide array of background ideas present will cause armies to diverge from each other aesthetically through the creative process of engaging with the background.

It’s kind of irrelevant if GW got it right with 3.5, they got rid of it on purpose so it isn’t coming back. So it doesn’t solve any problems.

mrFickle wrote:
It’s kind of irrelevant if GW got it right with 3.5, they got rid of it on purpose so it isn’t coming back. So it doesn’t solve any problems.

No, it isn't, because it shows that they can do it. And they did it in Traitor Legions as well, and that was late 7th edition. And Faith and Fury went a long way into differentiating the Legions as well. And you don't "solve problems" by just giving up and accepting them. The problems are still there, and you're idea would just exacerbate them. The 4th edition CSM codex is almost universally reviled by CSM players because it did almost exactly what you're proposing.

mrFickle wrote:
It’s kind of irrelevant if GW got it right with 3.5, they got rid of it on purpose so it isn’t coming back. So it doesn’t solve any problems.

Solve any problems... I'm not sure what your thrust is here.

What goal is achieved by just nuking the other legions? Is it just to generate ill-will or, is there some positive result for the game and setting that other people are just blind to? Particularly since other factions seems to have sub-factions with no unspecified 'problems.'

I don't think that it is necessary to get rid of all traitor Legions though obviously most of them are simply different in fluff composition. You could easily do with a codex for each of the major gods (so Death Guard, Thousand Sons, World Eaters and Emperor's Children) and one lambda chaos space marine codex with all the other legions folded in ad with the Black Legion as the poster child. That's good enough to me. Not all subfaction needs its own codex and special units.

mrFickle wrote:
What I’m thinking is would we be in a better place fluff and game wise if GW had written the traitor legions largely out of the story by having them slowly join the black legion over the time between the end of the HH and now.

I love the traitor legions and CSM but I don’t think GW has ever really done them justice. Codex CSM has always been more like codex black legion paying lip service to the rest of the legions and I know we have DG and TS codexes but I think that really added to the frustration of not having at least EC and WE codex.

I just think by now we’d be in a better place, all the same characters and units but the world of CSM would be more unified and better catered for.

No, they'd still be fluffing loyalist SM, just things would be even less detailed for the non-SM factions.

Is it really so much to ask for Zerkers in Rhinos to be good again?

GW basicly tried that in 4th or 6th edition people hated it

No way, Rhino Rushing anything is peak 40K. It's what the game was meant to be. Really those poor "other factions" should get Rhinos too. The fact that this hasn't happened already is just proof GW hates them.

'Rules for Imperial Fists aren't so hot right now. Best write 'em out of the setting!'

 Hairesy wrote:
No way, Rhino Rushing anything is peak 40K. It's what the game was meant to be. Really those poor "other factions" should get Rhinos too. The fact that this hasn't happened already is just proof GW hates them.

mrFickle wrote:
What I’m thinking is would we be in a better place fluff and game wise if GW had written the traitor legions largely out of the story by having them slowly join the black legion over the time between the end of the HH and now.

I love the traitor legions and CSM but I don’t think GW has ever really done them justice. Codex CSM has always been more like codex black legion paying lip service to the rest of the legions and I know we have DG and TS codexes but I think that really added to the frustration of not having at least EC and WE codex.

I just think by now we’d be in a better place, all the same characters and units but the world of CSM would be more unified and better catered for.

No.

 Esmer wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
No way, Rhino Rushing anything is peak 40K. It's what the game was meant to be. Really those poor "other factions" should get Rhinos too. The fact that this hasn't happened already is just proof GW hates them.

You're a Man of Culture, I see.

To an extent I agree.

The legions are dead. In chaos' case they were broken and splintered after the heresy, scouring, and post scouring internecine combat in the eye.

There should not be any organised, cohesive or structured legion or legion-esque forces left.

What should be seen, imo are the various cults and warrior lodges that have sprung up in the wake of the heresy amongst the various survivors and have these take precedence - things like the obliterator cult, the raptor cult, the cults of the 4 gods, along with the affiliated organisations like the dark mechanicus and roving bands of chaos marine reavers and marauders. Some cults and legions would be synonymous (all world eaters are khorne berzerkers, not all berzerkers are world eaters, or iron warriors and obliteration, night lords and raptors) but they transcend the legions themselves. id love to see chaos presented as an individual strongman or warlord making bargains and alliances with these disparate elements through strength, cunning and sheer will rather than 'I collect iron warriors'

Like the loyalists though, the legacy of the legions should absolutely be a thing that is still felt by the warbands, tyrants, warlords and strongmen that are the legions real successors, it's just that imo the cults and successors to the warriors lodges would transcend the legions and these would be a very interesting new way of looking at chaos.

mrFickle wrote:
What I’m thinking is would we be in a better place fluff and game wise if GW had written the traitor legions largely out of the story by having them slowly join the black legion over the time between the end of the HH and now.

I love the traitor legions and CSM but I don’t think GW has ever really done them justice. Codex CSM has always been more like codex black legion paying lip service to the rest of the legions and I know we have DG and TS codexes but I think that really added to the frustration of not having at least EC and WE codex.

I just think by now we’d be in a better place, all the same characters and units but the world of CSM would be more unified and better catered for.

Of course, that's the better solution. Right after GW does the same with the loyalist legions while they slowly join the Ultramarines over the time between the end of the HH and now.