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due to the way Aspect Squads are organised now, where you must include the Exarch to lead them, hrines look like small individual places tended by a small number of priests (Exarchs). There's probably bigger temples, but the scale of it of the units seem like there's a lot of priests/monks (Exarchs) who tend their shrines and teach their disciples (Aspect Warriors)

If we model them on Japanese Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples, there are about 80,000 of each in Japan so scaled up for an entire world (Japan is about 1.6% of the world population), millions is a conservative guess.

In older lore at least some shrines were huge complexes, exarchs were more like chapter masters then. Rules-wise they've been demoted to little more than squad sergeants since 3rd though.

It's definitely a contradiction and honestly I'm confused too. Not sure if any of this has been retconned though I think not, we don't get that many lore updates.

I think you're still overstating numbers by looking at contemporary earth.

Gav Thorpe-s description of Alaitoc as per the Path series

A craftworld the size of Alaitoc has a living space larger than a typical Earth continent, with the majority of the population concentrated in habitat domes and a scattering of others across the ‘wilderness’ zones. This would equate to a small present-day city spread across an environment the size of North America. Perhaps the Path series doesn’t quite convey how massive some of the domes are and how much of a craftworld is virtually unihabited – like most conflicts, the majority of the human invasion is focussed on the populated areas. Hopefully the battle scenes in the forest dome, involving huge columns of tanks with flyers and titans in support, demonstrates that each dome could be considered a separate combat zone, each the equivalent of a country to be invaded and conquered.

With every eldar potentially able to serve as a guardian or on the ships, and the infinity circuit and advanced technologies allowing for a very small supply-side, mobilisation of nearly one hundred per cent of the population might be possible. Measured against this is the massively labour-orientated Imperial war machine that can lay claims to million-strong armies but only when supported by tens of millions, perhaps billions of workers.


Basically a craftworld is supposed to be more like the population of, say, Tokyo. That's still a lot of shrines but it's 'a few thousand'.

That makes a lot of sense- even though I never saw the Eldar as "zelaous", the literally have shards of one of their gods in their ships. So, there'd prolly be a big temple or whatevs to Khaine and maybe a step down for the Phoenix lords' stones/ armor, then smaller "Mom and Pop" shrines tended by the Exarchs. Wish GW would put out more space elf books, but they've built up this whole "Eldar look like humans, but their motives are completely Alien" so.. how would a human writer go about knowing what their mindset is?

Part of the issue here is we simply don’t have a good handle on how many Craftworlds exist, nor what their population look like.

Not only Law Of Large Numbers? But also super-comparative. We know before The Fall the Eldar as a whole controlled a vast swathe of the Galaxy.

Even if a mere 0.5% of that overall number survived, which is more than a decimation of their populace? Then to their minds, they are super endangered and reduce. But, if that starting number was (number out my arse solely for emphasis) a quadrillion Eldar? Even that sliver of a fraction surviving is still a vast number of souls. Like…vastly vast.

We’re also told Craftworlds range from city to small moon in size. Give or take. Except, unlike us our world, that’s still a 3D environment. The temptation is take a densely populated real world city, such as London, and claim therefore said city’s current population is absolute cap. But we’re not factoring in the vertical. Deck upon deck upon deck puts the potential population into Silly Numbers.

We also don’t really know how many Eldar at a given time choose to tread the Path of the Warrior as a percentage of the devotees. Because they have many paths to follow. And whilst all a trained as Guardian citizen militia? That doesn’t mean actively dedicating oneself to the Path of the Warrior is particularly popular.

It’s times like this I wish Rogue Trader hadn’t done Eldar dirty and given them the Orky treatment.

 Daba wrote:


If we model them on Japanese Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples, there are about 80,000 of each in Japan so scaled up for an entire world (Japan is about 1.6% of the world population), millions is a conservative guess.

Well, there's your disconnect. Aspect shrines aren't providing religious services to every village, town and neighborhood.

They're an exclusive place for a very small number of dedicated warriors. They're spec ops training centers, with a mystical bent.

Also worth noting there are only a certain number of exarch’s and that’s limited by how many suits of exarch armour there is.

They can’t just expand the number. Exarchs are basically gestalt entities made up of all the previous bearers of that armour. Once you put that mask on you never take it off.

If you really want to understand the aspect shrines you really need to read Path of the Eldar.

 General Kroll wrote:
Also worth noting there are only a certain number of exarch’s and that’s limited by how many suits of exarch armour there is.

They can’t just expand the number. Exarchs are basically gestalt entities made up of all the previous bearers of that armour. Once you put that mask on you never take it off.

If you really want to understand the aspect shrines you really need to read Path of the Eldar.

You’re thinking of Phoenix Lords.

Strictly speaking, the moment a…erm….Path Treader….gets stuck on that path. They become an Exarch. And so their armour. Kind of by default. Becomes Exarch Armour.

Do relic suits of Exarch Armour exist? Yes. Yes they do. But there’s nothing to suggest the number of said suits in the wardrobe directly relate to the number of Eldar gone a bit mental.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Also worth noting there are only a certain number of exarch’s and that’s limited by how many suits of exarch armour there is.

They can’t just expand the number. Exarchs are basically gestalt entities made up of all the previous bearers of that armour. Once you put that mask on you never take it off.

If you really want to understand the aspect shrines you really need to read Path of the Eldar.

You’re thinking of Phoenix Lords.

Strictly speaking, the moment a…erm….Path Treader….gets stuck on that path. They become an Exarch. And so their armour. Kind of by default. Becomes Exarch Armour.

Do relic suits of Exarch Armour exist? Yes. Yes they do. But there’s nothing to suggest the number of said suits in the wardrobe directly relate to the number of Eldar gone a bit mental.

You’re right I am. It’s been a long day 😴

It's worth remembering that the Craftworlds were Merchant vessels. For a Galactic empire. That implies some truly gargantuan hold space, even notwithstanding known structures like the Avatar's chamber and the Dome of Crystal Seers.

The downgrading of Exarchs is pretty sad to see. In 2nd edition it's stated that each aspect is represented by A shrine and each shrine has an exarch. This is appropriate for the power level they had back then, and supports aspect shrines being single, massive structures ("even the smallest shrines are extensive structures with areas dedicated to training, instruction and ceremony, Each shrine has its own armoury, and inner sanctum where the Exarch administers the rites of war before the Altar of the Bloody Handed God")

it also states that "The Path of the Warrior calls to most Eldar at some time in their long lives". So even if we're going to expand the number of shrines out, there need to be enough to serve "most" of the Craftworld's inhabitants (not necessarily all at once, and not necessarily the same aspect) while still being "extensive"

the 3rd edition codex doesn't have much in the way of fluff, but 4th repeats verbatim what the 2nd edition book says about the shrines being "extensive"

6th adds some new things, including the fact that "More and more Eldar walk the Warrior Path every passing year". It's also the first Codex to acknowledge multiple shrines for a single aspect: "each Aspect upon a craftworld keeps at least one shrine in which to practice the mastery of their Warrior Path" - neatly coinciding with the introduction of Autarchs, which fill the power gap (and equipment loadouts) left by the 2nd edition Exarchs

8th edition quantifies a shrine's size for the first time: "Structures so vast it takes days to walk from one side to the other" - while this is in specific reference to the Shining Spears shrine, it isn't remarked upon as being unusual, and if the other aspects are even a fraction of the size, that still makes them titanic structures.

So what we know is:
- "Most Eldar" (more and more each year) tread the path of the Warrior
- Each aspect on a world will maintain at least one shrine
- the shrines are "extensive", containing their own training facilities, armouries and ritual areas, as well as the accommodation of the Exarch who lives there, and a chamber where the Exarch Armour resides
- The Shining Spears shrine is massive, taking "days" to walk from end to end.

Now if we take a conservative estimate, walking speed is 3mph for a healthy human (Eldar walk faster). even if they're only walking 8 hours a day (Eldar sleep less) for 3 days that's 72 miles end-to-end.

72 miles. For one shrine. Even if the Scorpion shrine is 1/5 the size of the Spears shrine, that's still more than 14 miles of shrine

So no, I think it's doubtful there are "millions" of shrines on a craftworld, possibly a dozen or more in total, divided amongst the Aspects present on that Craftworld - more than enough, given their size, to accomodate the numbers of citizens walking the Path of the Warrior at any one time, but not so many that they are in every street

I’d imagine the spears would need more space to train on their jetbikes.

I did a calculation based on BFG's gravity well numbers a while ago, plus the various descriptions of 'continent to moon size' as 3D objects, with the space mostly empty (half completely empty, rest is divided to one Eldar / 2 cubic km, to average out town areas with more empty spaces) and the population was still in the billions.

Charax wrote:
It's worth remembering that the Craftworlds were Merchant vessels. For a Galactic empire. That implies some truly gargantuan hold space, even notwithstanding known structures like the Avatar's chamber and the Dome of Crystal Seers.

What's interesting is that it's stated that Craftworlds have significantly grown since those huge merchant vessels.

WD127: Since the Fall the original Craftworlds have grown considerably in size, so that they are now ten or a hundred times larger than the original trading ships which lie at their cores. Because they have expanded steadily over the years many are at least partially ruinous and have zones which await reclamation or very old zones which are largely uninhabited.

The current way Exarchs are presented is at odds with the 'big shrine'. They need to promote Exarchs to something like a Lt. character choice (and High Exarch captain choice), and Phoenix Lords go to up a weight class, then the current guy standing in as an Exarch can just be a small shrine priest who learns from the big shrine Exarchs.

given that Craftworlds are *so* massive, I don't think Exarchs conflict with big shrines at all - you can fit several huge structures onto a craftworld, especially if you take into account 3D space as well.

We don't have numbers for how many exarchs any particular craftworld and 40K armies are disproportionate representations (not every aspect squad will have an Exarch, whereas there's no downside to doing so in 10e, just like how Guilliman and other characters show up way more on the tabletop than he should if each battle was representative of an average conflict) so it's entirely possible for a craftworld to have less than 20 shrines

Charax wrote:

Spoiler:

It's worth remembering that the Craftworlds were Merchant vessels. For a Galactic empire. That implies some truly gargantuan hold space, even notwithstanding known structures like the Avatar's chamber and the Dome of Crystal Seers.

The downgrading of Exarchs is pretty sad to see. In 2nd edition it's stated that each aspect is represented by A shrine and each shrine has an exarch. This is appropriate for the power level they had back then, and supports aspect shrines being single, massive structures ("even the smallest shrines are extensive structures with areas dedicated to training, instruction and ceremony, Each shrine has its own armoury, and inner sanctum where the Exarch administers the rites of war before the Altar of the Bloody Handed God")

it also states that "The Path of the Warrior calls to most Eldar at some time in their long lives". So even if we're going to expand the number of shrines out, there need to be enough to serve "most" of the Craftworld's inhabitants (not necessarily all at once, and not necessarily the same aspect) while still being "extensive"

the 3rd edition codex doesn't have much in the way of fluff, but 4th repeats verbatim what the 2nd edition book says about the shrines being "extensive"

6th adds some new things, including the fact that "More and more Eldar walk the Warrior Path every passing year". It's also the first Codex to acknowledge multiple shrines for a single aspect: "each Aspect upon a craftworld keeps at least one shrine in which to practice the mastery of their Warrior Path" - neatly coinciding with the introduction of Autarchs, which fill the power gap (and equipment loadouts) left by the 2nd edition Exarchs

8th edition quantifies a shrine's size for the first time: "Structures so vast it takes days to walk from one side to the other" - while this is in specific reference to the Shining Spears shrine, it isn't remarked upon as being unusual, and if the other aspects are even a fraction of the size, that still makes them titanic structures.

So what we know is:
- "Most Eldar" (more and more each year) tread the path of the Warrior
- Each aspect on a world will maintain at least one shrine
- the shrines are "extensive", containing their own training facilities, armouries and ritual areas, as well as the accommodation of the Exarch who lives there, and a chamber where the Exarch Armour resides
- The Shining Spears shrine is massive, taking "days" to walk from end to end.

Now if we take a conservative estimate, walking speed is 3mph for a healthy human (Eldar walk faster). even if they're only walking 8 hours a day (Eldar sleep less) for 3 days that's 72 miles end-to-end.

72 miles. For one shrine. Even if the Scorpion shrine is 1/5 the size of the Spears shrine, that's still more than 14 miles of shrine

So no, I think it's doubtful there are "millions" of shrines on a craftworld, possibly a dozen or more in total, divided amongst the Aspects present on that Craftworld - more than enough, given their size, to accomodate the numbers of citizens walking the Path of the Warrior at any one time, but not so many that they are in every street

Multiple shrines per Craftworld dates back at least to 4th edition. This is from the White Dwarf released the same month as the 4th edition Codex and has the "at least one" phrasing:


I agree there are probably not many shrines per craftworld. I suspect things were changed to be greater than one per craftworld to allow for more fan-made shrines.

Though we do have an interesting point going on here.

Once upon a time? Exarchs weren’t just Squad Leaders, but (pretty deadly) combatants in their own right,

Whilst I have the relevant books, 1st Ed has never quite sunk in to the sad morass I call my Brain. But I can tell you that in 2nd Ed? You could have as many Exarchs as you had Aspect Squads. But? You weren’t tied a caste of Exarch.

So one could have, on any given Craftworld, Exarchs with no followers.

Is it a hard rule that it's one Exarch per Shrine?
If a Shrine has the same rough organisation as a Holy Order then if we compare Exarchs to knights and Warriors to non-knighted fighters then it would make sense that Shrines were still few in the grand scheme.
The Knights Templar for example, numbered around 15-20,000 Templars at its peak while only a tenth are estimated to have been knights.

It's a shark and fish thing. All shrines have exarchs but not all exarchs have to have shrines.

It's called the path of the warrior, not the path of the karate instructor. Their first and foremost obsession is with warfare and perfecting their skills at it.

Being lost on a path isn't constrained by property values. Hypothetically every student in a shrine could become lost on the path and become an exarch. It's a psychological consequence, not the availability of buildings or pants.

My reading of it is that those relic suits with all the spiritstones are the suits that the shrine lords wear. But anyone that exarchifies is still an exarch in their normal pants. After they fall in battle their armour could become another relic suit slowly accruing souls. They have to start somewhere.


There are 3 options for a lost student - they stay with their current shrine, they leave and found their own shrine, they leave and fight solo.

That last one is sadly not explored because gw will spend ages defining tiny miniscule differences between lieutenants and marine chapters, but all exarch are teach boss...


The idea that someone fallen to the path of perfect warfare and murder death obsessed with honing those skills is actually really just obsessed with teaching those skills is a really bizarre take.

If anything the majority of exarchs should be lone operatives looking for battle to hone their skills, endlessly fighting. It should take an unusual type of exarch to focus on helping noobs learn to punch instead.

As I’ve mentioned before, it’s near criminal Eldar never got an equivalent to Waaaargh! The Orks or Realms of Chaos.

There is a lot of early stuff out there (Codex Titanicus foremost for early stuffs) but noting as in-depth as The Imperium, Orks and Chaos got.

 Hellebore wrote:
It's a shark and fish thing. All shrines have exarchs but not all exarchs have to have shrines.

It's called the path of the warrior, not the path of the karate instructor. Their first and foremost obsession is with warfare and perfecting their skills at it.

Being lost on a path isn't constrained by property values. Hypothetically every student in a shrine could become lost on the path and become an exarch. It's a psychological consequence, not the availability of buildings or pants.

My reading of it is that those relic suits with all the spiritstones are the suits that the shrine lords wear. But anyone that exarchifies is still an exarch in their normal pants. After they fall in battle their armour could become another relic suit slowly accruing souls. They have to start somewhere.


There are 3 options for a lost student - they stay with their current shrine, they leave and found their own shrine, they leave and fight solo.

That last one is sadly not explored because gw will spend ages defining tiny miniscule differences between lieutenants and marine chapters, but all exarch are teach boss...


The idea that someone fallen to the path of perfect warfare and murder death obsessed with honing those skills is actually really just obsessed with teaching those skills is a really bizarre take.

If anything the majority of exarchs should be lone operatives looking for battle to hone their skills, endlessly fighting. It should take an unusual type of exarch to focus on helping noobs learn to punch instead.

Interesting.

Shrinelord sounds like a cool name for a better Exarch lieutenant-equivalent in the HQ slot.

I suspect lone Exarchs would be rare simply because the aspects teach warfare in squad combat more than lone fighting. Khaine is the god of War, not of duels. I think this is reflected in many of the Exarch skills actually being techniques performed with the entire squad.

A lone Exarch can focus on their personal skills, but they miss out on the leadership and teamwork of having a squad of warriors, and can therefore never truly reach the peak of warfare without the strength that comes from many working in concert- an Exarch alone is unlikely to beat an Exarch supported by a squad of aspect warriors, or maybe even a squad of aspect warriors without an Exarch. Equally, a lone Exarch is less likely to have an impact on the field of battle as armies clash.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if Exarchs often go on a sort of murder sabbatical for awhile to hone individual combat skills, but then return to a shrine to practice group fighting skills again.

If we need to start inventing new ranks of exarch to make our theories stick, that's probably a sign we're going down the wrong path

Exarchs are not just people trapped on the path of the Warrior, they are people trapped on the Path who have also donned the ritual armour of the shrine.

If you're trapped on the Path but haven't donned the armour, you aren't an Exarch (and you can join other Aspect shrines, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 compendium - joining another aspect still involves staying on the path). You can spend your time walking different aspects of the Path until one of the suits is available for you to take your role as an Exarch

Charax wrote:
If we need to start inventing new ranks of exarch to make our theories stick, that's probably a sign we're going down the wrong path

Exarchs are not just people trapped on the path of the Warrior, they are people trapped on the Path who have also donned the ritual armour of the shrine.

If you're trapped on the Path but haven't donned the armour, you aren't an Exarch (and you can join other Aspect shrines, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 compendium - joining another aspect still involves staying on the path). You can spend your time walking different aspects of the Path until one of the suits is available for you to take your role as an Exarch

There were implied different ranks of Exarchs in the Avatar's ritual's first story then they oldest exarchs from the principal shrines who have some sort of leadership role in organising it. (In fact, I hypothesise that these were what the Phoenix Lord sculpts were originally meant to be, as all of their tabs say things like 'Avenger Exarch' etc. and we have an early Jes Goodwin sketch of what's clearly Maugan Ra's 2nd ed sculpt, labelled 'Dark Reaper Exarch' without any names.)

The reason why people are having these 'ranked' exarchs is because of GW's decision to blend Exarchs into Sergeants when originally they were a Hero/Lt. level character choice on conception, so the lore has had this disconnect since 3rd edition because of that game design decision which hasn't matched their fluff which has remained pretty static since they were first written. Because GW have ingrained the models into the boxes now, it's more of a hurdle to yank them out of Aspect Warrior entries now into hero/lt. level Character choices where they should still belong. For the current rules to match the fluff, the current Phoenix Lord entries should just be the Exarch, and the 'exarch' in the squads should just be some dude who's allowed more intricate shrine gear.

Charax wrote:
If we need to start inventing new ranks of exarch to make our theories stick, that's probably a sign we're going down the wrong path

Exarchs are not just people trapped on the path of the Warrior, they are people trapped on the Path who have also donned the ritual armour of the shrine.

If you're trapped on the Path but haven't donned the armour, you aren't an Exarch (and you can join other Aspect shrines, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 compendium - joining another aspect still involves staying on the path). You can spend your time walking different aspects of the Path until one of the suits is available for you to take your role as an Exarch

Is that the Warhammer Compendium released in 1989? Is that still valid or has it been contradicted by newer lore on Eldar paths and their interaction with becoming Exarchs?

Only being able to become an Exarch by donning ancient suits would make Exarchs a dwindling resource (as some suits would be inevitably lost in combat and no new suits are made). That is consistent with the general themes of the Eldar as a dying race, but would become an increasing bottleneck as more and more Aeldari join the Path of the Warrior.

Charax wrote:
If we need to start inventing new ranks of exarch to make our theories stick, that's probably a sign we're going down the wrong path

Exarchs are not just people trapped on the path of the Warrior, they are people trapped on the Path who have also donned the ritual armour of the shrine.

If you're trapped on the Path but haven't donned the armour, you aren't an Exarch (and you can join other Aspect shrines, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 compendium - joining another aspect still involves staying on the path). You can spend your time walking different aspects of the Path until one of the suits is available for you to take your role as an Exarch

It's another example of 'GW writers do not understand numbers'; for example, at 350 million to ca. 500 million people respectively (for the USA and Europe) there exist approximately 380.000 and 500.000 churches (just what google puts out), or roughly one church per thousand people, of course ranging from the smallest chapels and hermitages where there's barely anyone participating in the community or parish to huge cathedrals or mega-churches that serve thousands to ten-thousands of people as a place of worship. No matter how densily or sparsely settled craftworlds are, a population of at least tens of millions to hundreds of millions is just impossible to serve with a single shrine, even if only a fraction of it is practitioning at the same time and it is a mega-shrine. I find it more believable that each 'Shrine' has countless sub-shrines, weird offshoots, semi-independent sects, dojos, rogue exarchs, domains that are tied to it by ancient rites and compacts and so on, to play to the 'feudal Japan' or 'Kung Fu Movie China' tropes. Monolitic blocks with exactly one head-exarch are just boring.

Charax wrote:
If we need to start inventing new ranks of exarch to make our theories stick, that's probably a sign we're going down the wrong path

Exarchs are not just people trapped on the path of the Warrior, they are people trapped on the Path who have also donned the ritual armour of the shrine.

If you're trapped on the Path but haven't donned the armour, you aren't an Exarch (and you can join other Aspect shrines, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 compendium - joining another aspect still involves staying on the path). You can spend your time walking different aspects of the Path until one of the suits is available for you to take your role as an Exarch

You don't choose to become an exarch, thats the whole point about the fear around them. Anyone can fall to a path at any time and they have no control over it. It's the dark shadow of the path system, that anyone can become so obsessed with the path they are on that they lose themselves entirely to it. Exarch is just the name of a warrior path lost Eldar. Farseer is what you call an Eldar lost on the seer path.


Your argument is, gw have spent no time exploring the nuances of Eldar culture and exarchs therefore there are none. My argument is, the complexity and depth of the psychology behind the path system make it highly unlikely they are as 2 dimensional as you assume because gw didn't write anything.

By your logic there are no levels of warrior path training, because gw didn't write any. So as soon as an Eldar joins an aspect they are as good as anyone that has been in it for a decade. Or an Eldar that has walked every aspect once and come back to this one again. Because gw never wrote any detail about this, that's your position. Yet somehow an autarch is different.


My position is that it doesnt make sense without greater depth to the concepts and you have to infer those because gw doesn't want to waste time on non marines.

We know more about chapter librarius and chaplaincy structure than we do exarch and temple structures.



But the facts are: Eldar fall to their path with no control. Being lost on the warrior path means you are called an exarch. The original exarch suits had to come from somewhere. The idea that you can never make more exarchs than suits is illogical, because then they never would have existed in the first place.

 Haighus wrote:

...

I suspect lone Exarchs would be rare simply because the aspects teach warfare in squad combat more than lone fighting. Khaine is the god of War, not of duels.

...

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if Exarchs often go on a sort of murder sabbatical for awhile to hone individual combat skills, but then return to a shrine to practice group fighting skills again.

Khaine is also the god of Murder, so exarchs refusing to teach and instead focusing on killing would definitely fit. We also don't know how aspect warriors learn from exarchs (at least I don't, is it in one of those black library books?). Is it a patient mentor situation, or are they just trying to copy the exarch as it goes berserk in the training room?

I absolutely love the idea of murder sabbaticals

Remember that the path system is not just for warriors. We just get to see them in game due to 40k being a wargame. In theory there are shrines to basket weaving, which could potentially snare someone and have their own exarchs. Without the high intensity of combat, very unlikely. But who knows.

It’s a concept that permeates craftworlds.

Not saying there isn’t a temple of slitting thoughts in the night. It’s a big universe.

Those trapped on the Path of the Warrior stay in shrines because the Craftworlders basically segregate war into its own separate area. Since those trapped on the Path of the Warrior cannot take off their psychological warrior mask, they are not allowed to walk freely in the Craftworld when the Craftworld is at peace. Nor do they want to because they become obsessed with perfecting their skills.

Those trapped on other Paths are not segregated off. For example, those trapped on the Path of the Dreamer in Gav Thorpe's Path of the Eldar series remain in a dreamy haze but do not remain in dedicated shrines. Neither are Bonesingers, who are trapped on the Path of the Artisan.

Regarding the earlier population counts, there are/were 2 schools of thoughts with Craftworld Eldar populations. The small number and big number schools. Clearly Gav Thorpe adheres to the small number since he envisages Alaitoc, one of the largest Craftworlds, as being the size of a continent but only having the population of a few million (the size of a small Western city). However, the Iyanden supplement, was written by Matt Ward, who for all his faults was at least an adherent of more realistic numbers. He depicted Iyanden as having lost literally billions in the fight against Hive Fleet Kraken. Craftworlds having billions is more plausible for a race that engages in so much warfare and with generations supposedly so few and spaced out, than having them be tiny city states that would have no hope of prevailing against a single hive city let alone hive world.

Gav Thorpe from his books is also clearly a follower of the small shrine concept with each shrine being 1 squad and 1 Exarch, yet also at the same time depicting shrines as relatively limited and rare. Although there certainly could be small neighborhood dojo shrines, I personally also see Craftworlds having more popular shrines be whole temple complexes in themselves, with multiple Exarchs doing the teaching.

 Nevelon wrote:
Remember that the path system is not just for warriors. We just get to see them in game due to 40k being a wargame. In theory there are shrines to basket weaving, which could potentially snare someone and have their own exarchs. Without the high intensity of combat, very unlikely. But who knows.

It’s a concept that permeates craftworlds.

Not saying there isn’t a temple of slitting thoughts in the night. It’s a big universe.

Bonesingers are the equivalent of Exarchs for the Path of the Artisan, I have been reliably informed. I think the general assumption is that each path has its own title for those lost to it, but we know of very few.

Oh, cool. An new exarch discussion. Love these.

Hellebore wrote:It's a shark and fish thing. All shrines have exarchs but not all exarchs have to have shrines.

I think they do. It's where the armor is kept. It's where a new exarch is called when he becomes lost on the path. He dons the ancient armor and becomes the exarch as his spirit combines with the previous exarchs becoming the latest iteration of the first. In Path of the Warrior, Korlandril falls, is refused entry to the shrine of deadly shadow, is told to find his own shrine. He goes to the autarch chamber, sees the runes of the shrines and finds the shrine of hidden death. He goes there, dons the armor and become Morlaniath, first of seven to wear the exarch armor in that shrine. Korlandril was the eighth, but his spirit is submerged under the first. Soon his gets his first student.

Your first pupil.
One to be taught.
So soon?
Always it is so. A new exarch needs followers. The shrine calls to them.

It's called the path of the warrior, not the path of the karate instructor. Their first and foremost obsession is with warfare and perfecting their skills at it.

Exarchs are ancient. They have already mastered their skills. Only in the case of a new exarch in a new shrine would we see someone who is less than a consummate warrior.

Being lost on a path isn't constrained by property values. Hypothetically every student in a shrine could become lost on the path and become an exarch. It's a psychological consequence, not the availability of buildings or pants.

I think craftworlds function like living organisms. All members of the society are psychically attuned and react to stimuli. When a craftworld is headed towards war, the eldar will feel this in subtle ways. More eldar will start to walk the path of the warrior. More existing warriors will become lost and dormant shrines will be reawakened by them. If a craftworld requires new shrines to be built then this will be directed by the exarch council and autarchs.

The idea that someone fallen to the path of perfect warfare and murder death obsessed with honing those skills is actually really just obsessed with teaching those skills is a really bizarre take.

If anything the majority of exarchs should be lone operatives looking for battle to hone their skills, endlessly fighting. It should take an unusual type of exarch to focus on helping noobs learn to punch instead.

I think there's a distinction to be made between someone who becomes lost on the path of the warrior and someone who is tantamount to a berserker or death company.

Gert wrote:Is it a hard rule that it's one Exarch per Shrine?

Yes, I think that's clear from Path of the Warrior.

Iracundus wrote:

Gav Thorpe from his books is also clearly a follower of the small shrine concept with each shrine being 1 squad and 1 Exarch, yet also at the same time depicting shrines as relatively limited and rare.

I think that comes from the fact that he wrote a couple of eldar codices before he started writing the novels. So I think he approaches it from that angle with old school single detachment/FOC limitations in mind. The scale of what's really going on are unaddressed. Alaitoc has to have more than just 3 Striking Scorpion shrines (with just 2 active at the start of Path of the Warrior).

When Korlandril falls he goes to the Shrine of Deadly Shadow where he had trained. He is refused entry. Kenainath greets him at the door fully armed and armored:

"You have lost your way, you must find another shrine, it is tradition. The Path ends for you; Khaine has taken your spirit, you are an exarch."

"Your journey was short, but now it is completed, you must accept it. There are other shrines, empty and without leaders, one will call to you. As it was with me, as it was with all of us, those trapped on the Path. We will meet again, not as master and his pupil, but as two equals."

Korlandril ends up going to the chamber of the autarchs where he finds:

"...the long circles of runes around the central platform, each an aspect shrine. Some were worn thin by generations of feet, others as bright as the day they had been inscribed. As he circled slowly, he recognized the pattern. The oldest shrines were at the center, many of them Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks and Dark Reapers. There were duplicates, their runes careful variations on the parent shrines, each moving further from the dais. New runes appeared, of aspects unknown before - Crystal Dragons, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears. Outwards and onwards the history of Alaitoc's warrior past spiraled."

This gives the impression that Alaitoc has a large number of shrines, many if not most of which are dormant. This notion is reinforced by the reborn Morlaniath saying he had been dormant for three generations waiting for the next spirit to merge with him. Korlandril was the eighth. How long is an eldar generation? A thousand years? Five hundred?

Haighus wrote:
Bonesingers are the equivalent of Exarchs for the Path of the Artisan, I have been reliably informed.

I think it's actually the sub-path of the shaper/shaping FWIW.

 Arschbombe wrote:

Haighus wrote:
Bonesingers are the equivalent of Exarchs for the Path of the Artisan, I have been reliably informed.

I think it's actually the sub-path of the shaper/shaping FWIW.

Bonesingers are Trapped. In the second Gav Thorpe Path novel, the female main character talks to her father who is a Bonesinger, and reference is made to how he is Trapped.


Going back to the early Striking Scorpion from the novel discussion, it is weird and not something I personally agree with: Aspect Warrior that trained under Deadly Shadow shrine, where the Exarch used a power claw, becomes an Exarch and goes to become the Exarch of a new shrine where he uses the Biting Blade. One would think that the various Shrines should differ in fighting styles and a student of one style should go on to fight in that style, with only a few deciding to branch out or change styles. Thus certain styles might rise or fall in popularity or spread to different Craftworlds over time.

We see hints of these "sub-styles" in how the Exarchs arm themselves, emulating an aspect (pun intended) of their Phoenix Lord. For example, we have the Howling Banshee Exarchs. Those armed with an Executioner may be trying to emulate Jain Zar's Blade of Destruction as priority. Those with mirrorswords may be trying to emulate her "storm of silence" flurry of attacks. Those with the triskele the Silent Death.