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How do!

So a bit of a brain tickler hopefully.

I assume we’re all familiar with Genestealer Cults, their modus operandi and final goal. That is, infiltrate a settled world, begin spreading the genetic taint. Get you and yours as deeply embedded in the culture’s social structure as possible. As the Patriarch grows in power, it begins calling any passing Hive Fleet to dinner. And as the finale? Rise up, destabilising any defence efforts against the encroaching Hive Fleet. This not only helps the Hive Fleets find suitably rich prey worlds, but that the hopefully inevitable consumption is as a cost effective as possible.

Given how widespread Hive Fleets are, it’s kind of up in the air as to whether a given Cult might do an uprising before the Patriarch’s call is acknowledged. I mean, theoretically if time isn’t a concern? A Cult could spread the taint to every single sentient being on that world. Which could mean an entirely free dinner should a Hive Fleet eventually show up.

But what if it’s never answered? We know Warp Travel can see ships arrive at completely different points in time. So, whilst quite the happenstance? It’s entirely feasible the One Day Patriarch ends up millennia in the past. A time before the Hive Fleets had encroached.

I see no reason why that would stop it snogging victims and getting them to have babies. Genetic Imperative is Genetic Imperative after all. Provided its game isn’t rumbled too early? That’s when the cult could well spread to seize the entire population. It’s just….theres nothing to come along any time soon for a nice plate of Genetic Soup.

Perhaps that has even happened. A single Warp Whoopsie at some point (even in the future, because wibbly warpy timey wimey) sees a Purestrain, hidden on a ship, end up on Ymgarl millennia before the current era. And from there, perhaps attacked with some kind of genetic virus attack, lead to the maligned by all Ymgarl Genestealers.

And we know from the fate of Hive Secundus that genetically fiddling with Genestealers can cause…oddness. Including a psychic beacon it appears the Hive Fleets are quite studiously ignoring.

But then, we have the Anphelion Project, which shows the full menu of Horrific Chitinous Deff can emerge from even a handful. Like Orks, but much less fun. So…perhaps if Hive Fleet Not Come To Us, Us Make Own Hive Fleet in such circumstances? I mean, the biomass is right there. And it’s nicely compliant. And I’m pretty confident that by the time an entire planet is infected, there’d be a solid number of Purestrains. Certainly on a world with a population equivalent to Modern Day Earth? You’d be looking at several million Purestrains. Especially if, as I suspect is kinda necessary given 1st Gen Hybrids are….gnarly, the Chitin is all soft at the point of birth so the mother doesn’t die in childbirth.

Which could mean a Cult left entirely isolated, but otherwise undiscovered? Becomes a Hive Fleet in its own right as an alternative?

In IA they talk there is gaunts who initially can reproduce by laying eggs. But nothing in this regard for stealers. I think world which stop paying tithe could raise some questions. And subsector and then sector administratum send request to Militarum. And that gonna be this cult's fate.
But again, GSC codex said patriarch can control mutations on some degrees. So technically after some time passed he can start mutate hybrids into other bioforms with same cult cycle

Remember that the Cults aim is to take over the planet without an uprising.

The Carcharadons novel Outer Dark shows this where the PDF, Ecclesiarchy, Fraeteris Militia, and the Arbites have all be taken over by the Cult. The whole world is under the thrall of the Broodmind but operates as normal until they need to try and kill the Carcharadons (and an Inquisitor) who find out about the Cult. Even those not infected fight with those who are because the entire government and military apparatus is controlled by the Cult.

Essentially the planet in question becomes a dispersal hub for more GSC. Purestrains are shipped off world, Cultists are recruited to the Guard who will fall under the sway of the Hivemind in a warzone, and the planet keeps the biomass fresh and ready for consumption.

There are certain worlds that can be conquered by a Genestealer Cult far earlier, claimed by the Patriarch's dynasty when the Hive Fleets bound for the destination is hundreds of years distant or not coming at all. This can be from any reason like the uprising triggering prematurely due to the cult running out of ways to spread beneath the radar of their enemies or the Patriarch psychically sensing that the fleet that would have claimed them is now lost, caught in a stellar event such as a supernova or a Warpstorm. These Genestealer owned worlds or systems are in some way the most dangerous cults to the Imperium, for like a virus spreading to a new host bodies, the cult actively seeks to sow the seeds of the infection across a far wider area in hopes of reconnecting with their gods while using their home worlds as a base of operations, replicating their previous successes of infection by any means possible, utilising stowaway organisms and covert invasion forces.

From the 8th ed codex.

I take it this is what would happen in your scenario. Even if they journeyed ten thousands years back, they would keep spreading and spreading until the Tyranids return (or rather, arrive), as far as they can. I don't think Genestealer Patriarchs would ever consider anything like a loss of purpose in that scenario. They simply have a different perspective.

I always assumed we know a lot more about what goes on with nids and cults than those in setting ever do, the cults Labour away under an assumption that they will be visited by the saviours (eaten) but have no real idea of what that will be like or if it will ever happen. When it does happen it’s not what anyone expects.

I also always assumed most cults never make contact with nids adding to the futility and misery of it all. The galaxy is just too big.

Oh I just remember. There is entire Rogue trader dynasty is the Cult in Void King novel. And their base planes also cult. So yeah. They just start spread cult's all around

 kabaakaba wrote:
In IA they talk there is gaunts who initially can reproduce by laying eggs. But nothing in this regard for stealers.

IIRC the Patriarch's Throne can grow Boneswords, so given enough time time & resources it might be able to grow other things.

beast_gts wrote:

 kabaakaba wrote:
In IA they talk there is gaunts who initially can reproduce by laying eggs. But nothing in this regard for stealers.

IIRC the Patriarch's Throne can grow Boneswords, so given enough time time & resources it might be able to grow other things.

Rechecked and it can grow familiars which technically separate bioform, so yeah It's can try grow other things

The Infinite and the Divine features a cult that rises without a nearby Hive Fleet.

Of course, said cult is also Trazyn's fault through trying to assassinate Orikan with a genestealer.

You'll have to forgive me for not remembering the exact book, but there's one that references the timeline involved in the process and it's something like hundreds if not close to a thousand years. Patience seems to be the name of the game for the genestealers.

I suppose a Hive Fleet will turn up at some point for them.

So, thanks to existing background not quite as interesting as I’d hoped. But still pretty bloody interesting.

Also? It was mentioned above that if a Cult fully infiltrated an Imperial World, the lack of tithe would soon bring negative attention.

But that’s the terrifying thing about GSC. Thanks to them taking over as many political figures and positions as possible? They know this. And so, they ensure any such things are maintained. Indeed on Industrial Worlds? Any mine or refinery heavily infested is noted to have an uptick in productivity, thanks to the Hybrids increased endurance.

For those within the cult? Including, particular even, humans infected with the gene curse? Life is typically better than it was. Little bit of Carey-Sharey, socialistic and fairer distribution of food, aid and medicine.

Not some Federationesque Paradise, no. But a somewhat less oppressive life nonetheless. And one can reasonably assume, if there is widespread or total infiltration? Far less chance of random Gangs harshing anyone’s mellow, due to Brood Mind.

We of course know it’s not destined to last at all. You’re either found out and slaughtered, or the Cunning Plan Is Complete and you’re din-dins.

But for those years between? For 40K, it’s not an unattractive option.

See the thing is the Cult wouldn't necessarily stop the Tithe.

It's a perfect way to spread more of the Cult across the galaxy.

I spread the Cult you need somehow deliver your purestrain or make your 4th generation breed with humans on new world and make them not kill little genestealers who Borns. Also I don't understand if broodmind need to control those of 4th generation.

Cults, once spread off world, will form new Patriarchs.

Typically such a further seeding, if memory serves, will be a handful of Hybrids and at least one Purestrain. Naturally, the Patriarch will emerge from one of the Purestrains sent along,

What I personally am not clear on is whether a stranded Hybrid can start the ball rolling. I’m aware 1st and 2nd Gen almost always have the ovipositor organ, and so can infect. But how they maintain any kind of control without the nascent Patriarch I’m much less clear on.

Wait a minute. If everyone on a world has been infested, then wouldn't there be peace? Everyone being 'one big family' and all that? Crime rates would drop to zero and that would be suspicious to someone. Now I'm imagining these infested worlds keeping up false crime reports to keep the Adeptus Arbites of their trail. Orchestrating theatrical gang wars whenever one of their ships stops by.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


For those within the cult? Including, particular even, humans infected with the gene curse? Life is typically better than it was. Little bit of Carey-Sharey, socialistic and fairer distribution of food, aid and medicine.

Not some Federationesque Paradise, no. But a somewhat less oppressive life nonetheless. And one can reasonably assume, if there is widespread or total infiltration? Far less chance of random Gangs harshing anyone’s mellow, due to Brood Mind.

We of course know it’s not destined to last at all. You’re either found out and slaughtered, or the Cunning Plan Is Complete and you’re din-dins.

But for those years between? For 40K, it’s not an unattractive option.

Honestly, would be a superb short story. A beautiful, utopian society, well managed agri world. No crime, no fears. The brutal enemy? The Inquisition arrives and the twist is the main characters are all cultists. The entire society is completely subsumed, the uprising occurred long, long ago and the Fleet never arrived. Destroyed somewhere en route by the Navy.

Oh I’m sure there’d be some form of performative theatre. Or at least reports of activity.

I also wouldn’t rule out that the Arbites, theoretically removed from the day to day of the planet as they are, would also suffer infection, even if getting a Hybrid of any stripe into their ranks would be all but impossible, given they’re shipped in from off-world by design, and do not recruit locally.

But they still leave their precinct from time to time, so there will be opportunities for the patient planner.

Control isn't necessarily required via genetic link, the Broodmind is an exceptionally powerful psyker compounded by the advanced generations within the cycle that help extend that control.

Besides a Cult taking over a world doesn't mean every single individual is under the thrall of the Broodmind. All that the Cult needs is the rulers, leaders of powerful groups (crime syndicates, militias, gangs, workers unions) and a healthy chunk of the population. The masses can be kept under control using the usual tools of the state.

Besides, who's going to notice that the Governor is a little bit more zealous in fighting enemies of their regime.

There is wisdom in infecting everyone. But yeah, if you dominate anyone with reliable access to off-world communications (probably way fewer than we might initially think, all things considered) then there’s no specific need to get everyone.

But then, if your call isn’t being answered? I can’t see there being much harm in continuing to spread to as many hosts as possible.

Eventually sure and if the Cult can get into the Governorship and all other apparatus of state, they'll be able to get into the Arbites.
All it takes is one.

It would likely be a high risk, high reward situation.

Sure, an Arbite is no match for a Genestealer. But they still have a chance of surviving an attack, however slim.

If they do, and make it back to their Precinct? Your game could be fully rumbled. After all, they’re not directly responsible for the security of the planet, so don’t have face to lose should any major cult activity be uncovered.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Wait a minute. If everyone on a world has been infested, then wouldn't there be peace? Everyone being 'one big family' and all that? Crime rates would drop to zero and that would be suspicious to someone. Now I'm imagining these infested worlds keeping up false crime reports to keep the Adeptus Arbites of their trail. Orchestrating theatrical gang wars whenever one of their ships stops by.

Again, this is a thing in Outer Dark, with the added complication of it being a shrine world, so being a peaceful, crime-less planet is already expected. The cult only shows itself because the Sharks pick the planet to make a stand against a Tyranid splinter fleet not knowing the Cult is the entire reason the fleet is coming to the world.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It would likely be a high risk, high reward situation.

Sure, an Arbite is no match for a Genestealer. But they still have a chance of surviving an attack, however slim.

If they do, and make it back to their Precinct? Your game could be fully rumbled. After all, they’re not directly responsible for the security of the planet, so don’t have face to lose should any major cult activity be uncovered.

I disagree on that last part. If a entire planet somehow fell to a GSC, those Arbites haven't been doing their job properly or have been compromised by the Cult.

And the Arbites precinct isn't just going to be staffed by off world coppers. Maintenance staff, cleaners, support staff, all of them will be from that world. Any supplies such as food or medical will also have to be locally sourced, and those can easily be tainted to cause the garrison to come under the Cults sway.

Plus, there's just good old lying. "Oh yeah most of the Arbites died in a big raid, only these guys survived. Also we had a plague anyone who arrives on the planet needs to take this vaccine."

Ah, but then it’s still part of their duty.

They’re almost certainly going to die in the resulting fighting, so there’s redemption right there. The alternative is to try to handle it themselves and hope they can somehow root the whole thing out. Which, if they’re moving against the Arbites seems very unlikely.

Which is why they’re never deployed to their home system. They’re separate by design, loyal to The Imperium, not the world.

Not exactly sure what that response means, you didn't really seem to make a point that lines up with the previous post.

The Arbites being from off world doesn't mean they're immune to Cult infiltration.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Sure, an Arbite is no match for a Genestealer. But they still have a chance of surviving an attack, however slim.

No they don't, because the genestealer's best weapon is it's hypnotic powers and Arbitres are still fundamentally humans vulnerable to psychic powers.

It is even worse of you are dealing with a developed cult with actual psykers and a Patriarch, at that point they can just psychically brainwash the Arbitres.

In which case no Cult is ever discovered or eradicated before its Day of Ascension. Which we know simply isn’t the case.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Not exactly sure what that response means, you didn't really seem to make a point that lines up with the previous post.

The Arbites being from off world doesn't mean they're immune to Cult infiltration.

My argument there is against them surviving a Cult attack, then trying to cover it up to save face.

They’ve no reason to do so. In an ideal world, yes the Arbites should be monitoring and rooting out all cult activity. But they still have strictly finite resources to do so. And appear to depend on monitoring local police activity and reports to identify when things might be going south. Most of all? They’re The Imperium’s Eyes. Unlike Inquisitors which tend to be transient, even if they stick to patrolling a small area, the Arbites have their set territorial jurisdiction.

If and when things get out of hand? They have a duty to report up the chain of command to get the word out, and to do what they can to maintain the defences. Which can include battening down the hatches and holding up in their Precinct Fortress until help arrives.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In which case no Cult is ever discovered or eradicated before its Day of Ascension. Which we know simply isn’t the case.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Not exactly sure what that response means, you didn't really seem to make a point that lines up with the previous post.

The Arbites being from off world doesn't mean they're immune to Cult infiltration.

My argument there is against them surviving a Cult attack, then trying to cover it up to save face.

They’ve no reason to do so. In an ideal world, yes the Arbites should be monitoring and rooting out all cult activity. But they still have strictly finite resources to do so. And appear to depend on monitoring local police activity and reports to identify when things might be going south. Most of all? They’re The Imperium’s Eyes. Unlike Inquisitors which tend to be transient, even if they stick to patrolling a small area, the Arbites have their set territorial jurisdiction.

If and when things get out of hand? They have a duty to report up the chain of command to get the word out, and to do what they can to maintain the defences. Which can include battening down the hatches and holding up in their Precinct Fortress until help arrives.

Because humans always follow their duty and never fear punishment for messing up in a totalitarian regime, this would clearly happen every single time.

Not with the level of indoctrination and brainwashing the Schola Progenium instills.

Not saying it’s impossible, but to pretend they’d always cover it up is simply incorrect.

Ah my bad, poorly worded on my part. By lying I mean the Governor would lie about it.

"Oh yeah no all our Arbites died destroying a dangerous Cult. Yeah very sad, we need some new ones. Oh btw no biggie but we had a plague so they all need to take this vaccine we made. Yeah it's super annoying. Side effects are limited to baldness but that's it." - Definitely Not A Genestealer Cultist