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Uh the Deathwing and Ravenwing are PARTS of the inner circle

Let's get back on topic, please. -Mannahnin

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, but there is no Librarian in the Deathwing.

There is no Librarian in the Ultramarines 1st company either. That didn't stop one leading a 100% Terminator force against a Genestealer cult.

In the current Vanilla Marine codex, you can't take Terminators as troops at all.

If you mean fluff wise, well, the game isn't balanced around fluff.

Belial is the tax to take what are probably going to be the best Terminators in the game (sans Paladins). With all their mix and matching, special rules, and, hey, who knows, Belial might not suck.

EDIT:

Is Sammael required to make Ravenwing Troops? If so, then, complain about that too.

I know you want to take the Librarian and use Divination to make your Deathwing super awesome, but fear not, you still can! You just have to take Belial first. >.>

 Gar'Ang wrote:
Uh the Deathwing and Ravenwing are PARTS of the inner circle

True. My point. They are a larger, more diverse entity and a leader from this larger circle should be represented by a larger, more diverse army. If you want to narrow down on the PART of the Inner Circle that is the Deathwing, it makes sense to start with Belial.

 Banesword wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, but there is no Librarian in the Deathwing.

There is, admittedly, 1 Chaplain, so there might be scope for a second special character to lead the Deathwing.

And also only 1 Apothecary and 200 Terminators? Notice also that on that page ALL Librarians belong to the Inner Circle and not separate companies.

100 Terminators; 20 squads of 5 each.

Very good job 10x a lot!!!

Which is a "mistake" of the current Space Marines/Ultramarines Codex, not the Dark Angels one.

Though I probably wouldn't call it a mistake, as it is an event so rare, that players who want to play that specific scenario can simply house-rule to have UM-Terminators as troops for this scenario.

It is an event so rare, that it can probably be omitted in the official rules in favor of the more "iconic" combinations (which, in the case of Dark Angels, would be a Deathwing force led by their captain, not the 1-in-a-trillion odd-one-out when Belial wasn't with a sizable pure Deathwing force).

Actually, I wouldn't call that a "mistake" as that action involved an Ultramarine task-force that purged a Genestealer cult on Ichar IV. This is a lore issue really.
Having it being a "rare" event is still a stretch, considering the Ultras deployed their entire 1st company in terminator armor in the 1st Tyrannic War (Polar Fortress-Macragge). A somewhat second occurrence, albeit Invictus was the captain and I don't recall a Librarian or Chaplain in that force fighting there.

This is just an apples-to-oranges comparison here; codex chapters user their 1st company assets in a support role, breaking them up and assigning them to particular task-forces.
A good chunk of whatever particular company is allotted to the task-force (sometimes all of it depending on the scale of the mission) followed by support options such as 1st company support, etc.

So, while I would agree that it is most "uncommon" for codex chapters to deploy their 1st company assets in that matter, even being led by a Librarian or Chaplain, it still can occur, just not often.

The Dark Angels just use theirs differently as this is a matter of fighting doctrine and that's it. In a codex task-force, it can be led by a Librarian or Chaplain as needed by discretion of the Chapter Master. So, Death Wing probably have to have their master to lead them since it's their doctrine.

However, I do recall in the 2nd Siege of Vraks book, the Dark Angels had assembled a few companies including the Death Wing to do a "thunder-run" on a space-port/business district area held by rebel troops and they ran into some Alpha Legion in where Azreal was saved by none other than a Death Wing Chaplain, who ironically appeared to be the senior officer of the Death Wing on the ground that day....needless to say Belial was nowhere to be found. So maybe it can happen with Death Wing where others besides Belial can lead them......of course this is just fluff perspective here. Still Azreal was the supreme commander of the operation, but as far as the Death Wing were concerned, it does appear that they don't always have to be lead by Belial.

Again......just from what I've read from the FW books and maybe this was a special exception, I don't know. Guess you can spin it either way.

Was the whole 1st Company in Terminator armour at the Polar Fortress?

I thought it just said that they all died... They could have died as stern or vanguard...

Was the whole 1st Company in Terminator armour at the Polar Fortress?

Actually that's what I thought also... I remember also don't remember that the old Index astartes rules for invictus alowed him to take termies as troops (even if in 3rd ed, being troop wasn't that important)

 blood reaper wrote:

jullevi wrote:
More pictures:

Deathwing Command squad (incl. Plasma cannon)

Deathwing Details (incl. Watcher in the Dark)

Dark Angels Standard Bearer

Mods: Please remove if inappropriate.

The Standard Bearer looks a bit "retro", specifically the helmet.

It's the original "Brother Bethor" model, from way back when...
All the fur on my back is standing straight up!!!! Yay me!

So deathwing will still be allowed to be used as troops with belial? Also I wonder if you can still kit out Belial with a TH/SS or just the sword of silence. Recently started a preheresy imperial fist army, and was thinking of adding to it, but I might have to shelve that and pick up some of these new DA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b5nDzuNbr0M

Well, 5th january is ultra confirmed now.

LOL

Vengeance will be delivered according to the video, but what could it possibly mean?

Love the fighters, super land speeder is good, not great though. I would say my favorite so far would be the deathwing knights.

I had trouble deciding what chapter my custom chapter should originate from, I think they might turn out to be dark angel successors!

 Skipphag da Devoura wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

jullevi wrote:
More pictures:

Deathwing Command squad (incl. Plasma cannon)

Deathwing Details (incl. Watcher in the Dark)

Dark Angels Standard Bearer

Mods: Please remove if inappropriate.

The Standard Bearer looks a bit "retro", specifically the helmet.

It's the original "Brother Bethor" model, from way back when...
All the fur on my back is standing straight up!!!! Yay me!

I guess they are getting their own finecast banners as well.

Looks like DA tac squads are going to wind up with flakk missiles as an option:

http://the-deathwing.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/more-yes-more-new-pictures.html

 Hulksmash wrote:
Looks like DA tac squads are going to wind up with flakk missiles as an option:

http://the-deathwing.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/more-yes-more-new-pictures.html

most interesting

Is Sammael required to make Ravenwing Troops? If so, then, complain about that too.

Because Sammael is awesome, and you have different ways you can field him. Belial is just a puff

DakotaBlue wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b5nDzuNbr0M

Well, 5th january is ultra confirmed now.

I like how GW doesn't even put capital letters in their video titles like they're a fething 15 year old.

That being said the "teaser" thing wasn't so bad as far as dumb GW teasers go. I like how they emphasized the darker nature of the DA by torturing prisoners to confess as opposed to more inserted cheap-sounding bolter and thunderbolt noises.

People just don’t want to have the same Belial clone leading every game, because they didn’t use to have to take him. It will help if he still has different weapon options. However Belial doesn’t lead every engagement of the 1st company. They don’t deploy the entire company for every action either. Also if the Deathwing has two missions at the same time Belial can’t be in two places at the same time, so somebody else needs to command the other mission. That is why they need a captain in TA option. That being said I will not hold my breath GW has screwed us before with the 4th ed codex.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Gar'Ang wrote:
Uh the Deathwing and Ravenwing are PARTS of the inner circle

True. My point. They are a larger, more diverse entity and a leader from this larger circle should be represented by a larger, more diverse army. If you want to narrow down on the PART of the Inner Circle that is the Deathwing, it makes sense to start with Belial.

Regardless of your personal vendetta against the idea of things other than Belial unlocking troop terminators, the fact remains that it's a very relevant tool for successor chapters.

You can argue till you are blue in the face about the composition of the Dark Angels companies, it still doesn't make sense for Belial to be leading a Disciples of Caliban force.

but it does make sense for Belial's counterpart to lead the Disciples of Caliban.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
You can argue till you are blue in the face about the composition of the Dark Angels companies, it still doesn't make sense for Belial to be leading a Disciples of Caliban force.

Amen brother,



So do you guys thing the 1/5/13 date is for the preorders or the release?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
but it does make sense for Belial's counterpart to lead the Disciples of Caliban.

But he is not going to have all the same weapons a wargear as Belial, when your the guy in charge you get to pick what sfuff you carry. Very few company masters all carry the same stuff.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
You can argue till you are blue in the face about the composition of the Dark Angels companies, it still doesn't make sense for Belial to be leading a Disciples of Caliban force.

Amen brother, so do you guys thing the 1/5/13 date is for the preorders or the release?

Um... pre-orders, since the usual tactic has been to release a trailer at least 1 week before pre-orders which will be at least 1 week before release. If official announcement was today, it's most likely going to be a Jan 12th release.

The land speeder vengeance is a heavy support slot...

Which means it hopefully doesn't compete with the new flyers and existing speeders for place in a list (Not seen if flyers are heavy or not).

Ah good good, was worried it was fast attack, didn't want.it to compete with the fighters

 Tomb King wrote:
The land speeder vengeance is a heavy support slot...

Which is to allow for Fluffy Ravenwing Armies to have something in that slot that they can use. Especially since the flyers are Fast attack.

wow ninja'd repeatedly. Damn you Initiative 1.

If we're going to talk about fluff reasons for terminator armies on the tabletop, isn't it a case of 'if the fuhrer wants it, 2+2 shall equal 5'?

GW's doublethink regarding fluff is endless when there's profit to be had.

 Davylove21 wrote:
If we're going to talk about fluff reasons for terminator armies on the tabletop, isn't it a case of 'if the fuhrer wants it, 2+2 shall equal 5'?

GW's doublethink regarding fluff is endless when there's profit to be had.

First, this makes no sense. Deathwing troops have been around for 3 versions. Why is it just now that GW is doublethinking it?

Second, were you one of the people who voted in another thread that the rulebooks should be less than $20? Where is it written that GW is a charity and must sell products at or below cost?

Now, back on topic...

I am so excited to see my Dark Angels get a boost. Can't wait!