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Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to full conceptualize this - It aims to leverage the fragile mass-firepower units and the hard-hitting and recently price lowered shining spears.  I have assumed them to be max-size 5 as before.

Disclaimer(s) - I'm running loose with the points values.

Farseer on Bike w/ Spear and some wargear ~100
Autarch on Bike and some wargear ~ 100 (for the +1 reserve roll
2x 10 Guardian w/ Brightlance (compulsory choices) ~ 250
3x Full Shining Spears ~ 600
3x Full war-walkers w/ 2x starcannon ~ 720

Good thoughts:  The idea is to turbo-boost turn 1.  Charge turn 2 - kill some stuff - withdraw on his turn 2.  Shoot up the weakened squads on turn 3.  Charge new squads on turn 3.

Bad thoughts:  Damn lack of anti-tank guns.  Could potentially get whipped by shooting after HTH.  Must position charges to ensure that you DO NOT wipe-out on your turn.  Maybe charge multiple squads.

 

I like the idea of a fast moving eldar force for the new codex.

Jetbikes are troops, so you might want to take them instead of the guardians.

I still think they might struggle against drop pods though.

Unless your referring to new codex rumors, Jetbikes are Fast Attack choices. Both Gaurdian, and Shining Spear bikes.

I was reffering to the new codex rumors.

He is building his list around the next edition, and the rumored lower priced jetbikes.

Otherwise, he has no business taking shinging spears.

I second the use of jetbikes in this list. That way the army is pretty much MEq (T4 3+ save), you add some anti-horde support (something this list desperately needs) and you now have an effective and relatively cheap objective grabber (if you don't go crazy on the size). You'd have to give some warwalkers brightlances though or retool the list to deal with armor. And quite frankly, 2 BS3 brighlances just isn't enough.

Also this list is pretty gimped versus hordes. I'd personally go a totally different route with the list and drop the warwalkers and guardians for mobile stuff like jetbikes, falcons and prisms.

after building my tank tau force i would love to see an eldar equivalent-wave serpents with spirits stones, bright lances and shirukin cannons and some falcons with pulse laser, star cannopn, shirukin cannon, spirit stone and holo fields(with guardians and a farseer od course, gotta have them to take the serpents ; ) ) .......now there is some fast eldar

Well something to add. Brimstone on warseer has stated that shining spears laser lance can shoot as well as assault (rumored to be capable of this in the same turn):

6 " S6 Ap4 Assault 1 lance. It can do this and assault as well. So you might have more anti-tank then you think (considering the exarch may get a S8 version of the weapon).

The pendulmn has swung the other way...

Even at their new cheaper point cost, I'm not sold on jetbikes. Sure they are T4 with a 3+ save, but they are still strength 3, still only have 1 attack each, and still only have a 12" range gun. Had they done something to fix some of the problems inherent there (mostly the range thing if I had my choice) then they might have been worth takeing. However now they still suck. Sure they suck in greater numbers now but they still have the same basic problem they had before. They zoom to where ever it is that they are going and then they just hang out till they die because their weapons gaurentee they will be in rapid fire range and they are worthless in hand to hand.

Well, they are actually decently resilient against most troop carried weapons, and the 6" move means you can hide them after they hit.

Still really risky though.

Pheonix: Guardian Jetbikes are totally worth it. Let me break it down for you:

10 Guardians + Waveserpent to make them fast with some protective gear = 220
10 Guardians on bikes (already fast, free +1T +2Sv, turboboost and twinlinking, and assault move) = 220 points.

Options: Foot Guardians can have Warlocks and choice of heavy weapon
Options: Bike Guardians can have Warlocks and can only take shuricannon, but they can have up to 3 instead.

Seems fairly reasonable to me. Slap an "enhance" warlock in there, and you have a decently resilient unit. It takes on average 9 normal marine swings to kill an enhanced guardian.

1/2(2/3)(1/3) - 1/9. Sweet.

I'd like to propose the above list by swapping foot guardians with bike guardians and fireprisms for warwalkers. I think it still comes in around 1850.

Exactly what I'm considering. Not sure if prisms or falcons are they way to go though.

I'm waiting to see how much the jetbike shuricannons will cost (1/2 of current would be good). I'm guessing warlocks might be a tad overpriced (assuming they have to have witchblade or spear like the retinue is rumored to have) but we'll see.

Overall though I like the idea of a low model count army that has solid mobility and some real killing ability in assault, something the marine bike army doesn't have. Plus eldar jetbike models look lightyears better then marine bikes.

Plus eldar jetbike models look lightyears better then marine bikes.

You've got to swap out the torsos for regular guardian plastics, though.  Someone once described the jetbike models by saying "Flee!  The stoic riders of Saim-Hann are upon us!  Our weapons are no match for their excellent posture!"

Hehe yeah that is true about the riders.

Thought I'd add that someone on 40konline posted a very detailed outline of the new codex. Of note for this thread is the costs of jetbike upgrades:

10 for each shuricannon (1 per 3 jetbike, warlock doesn't count toward the total). Warlock is 45 points without powers (ouch).

So min-sized destructor squad would be 3 jetbikes with 1x shuricannon + 1 warlock with destructor ~131-136 points (not sure what destructor will cost). Not sold on it as a unit but it's not too bad. Wish wraithblades were better as then the unit could have a bit of choppiness.

6 man squad seems a bit better. 152 points and 6 S6 shots at 24" with JSJ and turbo-boost. Not even the same ballpark as Tau but for a troop choice it isn't bad (and certainly fits in well with other mobile units).

IMO, the optimum build is:

9x Bikes, 3 cannon, w/ Warlock w/ Enhance.  That way they won't get PWNed as bad in assault since Marines will be hitting on 4s instead of 3s.  283ish?

I think I would take Conceal over Enhance any day.

They are still somewhat expensive models, and the extra 5+ Invulnerable or ability to strike first when caught in combat is much better than the extra protection in the off chance that a WS4 unit catches you in close combat.

There may be better options than either though, and the doom flamer is still a good option.

Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 09/11/2006 3:43 PM

They are still somewhat expensive models, and the extra 5+ Invulnerable or ability to strike first when caught in combat is much better than the extra protection in the off chance that a WS4 unit catches you in close combat.

Unless they change the wording to allow us to strike first in CC, we'll be stuck with just the cover save.

Hmm. I think I would still take Conceal over enhance.

Far, far more likely to be shot at then caught by Assault squads of various ilk.

No one has hammered the points yet, but it may be a worthwhile unit sitting back at the far range of the Shuricannon, and only closing against targets of opportunity.

Well for the minsized 3 bikes, 1 w/ shuricannon

Shuricannon vs MEq
3 shots x 1/2 hits x 5/6 wounds x 1/3 fail saves = 15/36 or 5/12
So at 24" and 76 points that's pretty weak on its own.

2 twinlinked shuricats vs MEq
4 shots x 3/4 hits x 1/2 wounds x 1/3 fail saves = 12/24 or 6/12

So at 12" you get 11/12 kills for 76 points. Thats a kill per point efficiency of 0.0121 which is better then, say stealth suits. Of course the stealth suits have that extra 6" of range. In the end if the jetbikes get this close they are either going to get rapid fired or charged.

Now wether conceal or enhance is better is a good question. I think enhance looks better to me overall as I'd rather get them in close combat with most units then sit round and get shot. We also need to decide at what unit size does the 45+ points becomes efficient.

My reasoning behind enhance over conceal is 2 points.

1.  Turn 1 you'll be invulnerable anyways, with a Sv3+I,  Turn 2 you'll be shooting and assaulting probably to keep from getting shot.  Charging is always preferable to being charged since bikes only have 1 attack.  Once you're in assault, swinging first and making marines roll 4s to hit is a huge difference.

2.  Conceal is more points as well.  (But this is just gravy over point #1)

I still don't agree that getting into combat is optimum.

As long as you don't target fast units, you should be able to avoid close combat, you can work to avoid as much shooting as possible.

If you jump into close combat, even with Enhance you are making very few attacks, and will likely be there the rest of the game.
You have essentially neutralized your unit for them.

On the other hand, I would have to see it on the table and see if the shooting + close combat would be enough to give the edge and have the bikes survive and be able to win.

9 bikes w/ 3 cannons and a warlock yields:

Warlock:  2(8/9)(1/2)(1/3)=8/27
6x Bikes:  12(3/4)(1/2)(1/3)=3/2
3x Cannons:  9(1/2)(5/6)(1/3)=5/4

Total from shooting:  3 5/108

Assault (Theoretical) - as you'll never get this many guys into HTH:

20 attacks at WS4 I5:  20(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)=10/9

Wow.  That's impressively piss poor.  I'm a believer now.  Ouch. - Anyone have any love for "embolden"?  Since our Guardians have an almighty Ld8... maybe this is better than conceal as an option... and some "anti-fear" insurance.

keezus you're missing the likelyhood that the warlock has a wraithblade standard (so a total of ~1.2.-1.4 kills from the squad depending on if they allow the warlock his pistol). So its not as bad as you think actually.

A comparably priced 10 man assault squad with 2x PP and PF/bp kills 2 MEq from shooting and 2.33 at I4 on the charge. So they're suprisingly even assuming no cover. The assault marines are still better assaulters (have more attacks, can take on MCs more readily and have frags) but they are also not a troop choice and lack the mobility and ranged attacks.

Enhance is a pretty solid choice too because the WS4 and I5 saves you some wounds: about half a wound or so from the 1.5 I5 kills and 1/4 less wounds from marines from having WS4.

Overall its not that bad, especially when factoring in its a troop choice and is supported by what looks like one of the best counter charge units in the game. No they aren't close combat monsters but but you do have other options with them as well (JSJ, turbo to objectives, etc.). At 76 points for the 3 man with shuricannon, I can also see jetbikes being troop choice place holders like firewarriors are in a UK style tau list.

I've been using embolden on my meager guardian squads (2 for alaitoc) since V4 came out. It's nice, but no game winner. Conceal is probably better.

Anarchist:

You're absolutely right about neutralizing your own guardian bikers even if you charge, but you're also tying up your opponent's unit. Sadly, given their cost and ability, it's probably rarely an even trade. So maybe the golden rule is only to try it if it can screw them more. I was thinking of using them in tandem with Shining Spears on the offence.

In an assault on their own, guardians might prevent your shiners from getting peppered between assaults. In a joint assault with Shining spears, with a little savy combat placement, biker guardians might be good distractions in close combat since spears are low in number and anyone in btb with guardians is going to have to swing at guardians. It might be fun to experament with using Biker guardians with shining spears to in essence hold them with one hand and bash em with the other. Falcons/Dragons and Prisms could deal with the tanks in the mean time.

My vote goes to enhance as well. It might depend on the rule wording in the new book, but if the extra initiative counts for the roll off for breakaway, that adds additional survivability.

Actually, if the +I applies to breakaway, the combined arms approach would help with running down those that flee, as well.