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Traditionally yes, but in the new codex?  Maybe not so much.

TL weapons, AV12 - admittably nearly, but not entirely, useless energy field, but they will now be able to bring the holoshield & spirit stones combo to the plate.

TL Scatter lasers will usually cause 3-4 wounds.  That is very comparable with both Skimmers and Chimera, both transports that are quite effective.
TL Brightlance are more accurate than Raiders, but you can get 3 Raiders for the cost of 1 Serpent.  Which will last longer defensively though?

And while the Wave Serpent is a good 40-50 points more costly than other transports, it is also fast, well armored and has quite potent firepower.

The big issue however, is that the main downside of the Wave Serpent is cost, and that is only excaberated by it's nonscoring nature.

What do you think, do the drastically increased survivability and quite potent firepower make up for it being an expensive nonscoring unit?

You obviously wouldn't transport close combat troops in it, but perhaps Fire Dragons could now be larger squads in a WS, freeing up HS for Fire Prisms?  Maybe WS mounted WG could be handy?  Would the need for the transport for Shuriken Storms be mitigated by the transport being effective?

What do you lads think?

Non Scoring status hurts too much, I dislike my devilfish for this reason, atleast with tau you have an easier time blocking charges as you have so many skimmers... Eldar are not likely to have as many so their use in this same funcion is somewhat lessoned.

Wave serpents with holofields?!?! Wowsie. Thats really really nice!!

I dont think they're a bad thing in an eldar army. The non-scoring nature is obviously a big kick in the balls but with holofields, they just got a lot more survivable and probably worth that investment now. At the moment i take them for the twin linked bright lances and falcons for the main killing but i guess in the new codex, with the advent of BS4 fire prisms, they just got a lot more useful to transport large squads of avengers and banshees.

I think they're going to be very useful in the new codex then, glad i have three!!

Fallen Angel:  I must respectfully disagree.  If your unit is non-scoring, then it needs to do one of two things to be worthwhile.

Kill the equivalent (or more) of its points cost to render enemy units non-scoring to compensate, or help whatever it is carrying to render (the combined cost of) enemy units non-scoring.  Any additional gear just increases the points defecit that you are coming back from.  I would not add any more gear to the vehicle besides vectored engines and a spirit stone.  A holofield is overkill.

Remember that transports also get a kick in the teeth by being forced of the table in Escalation.

Expected MEQ from twinlink scatterlasers over 6 turns is:

(6)(4)(3/4)(5/6)(1/3) or 5 MEQ - if it gets to shoot to maximum effect every turn.  That means the embarked squad needs to make up its own cost + ~75 points.  That's a tall order for guys largely with T3 and Sv4.

Realistially, it will be stunned or start off the table for at least 2 turns.  So the numbers drop to 3 1/3 MEQ per game - which is unacceptable.

Don't discount good old starcannon.  Over 4 turns you have:

(4)(2)(3/4)(5/6) or 5 MEQ.

Food for thought.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with Keezus. If the rumors are true and it's possible to put holofield and spirit stone on a wave serpent, it becomes totally worthwhile. IMO that makes all the difference: without holofield, the serpent is a deathtrap; with holofield, it is a transport that's worth the points.

Brightlance is the weapon of choice for my wave serpents. Twin-linked it's more accurate than even a wraithlord's and only needs a couple of shots per game to be a threat to heavy tanks. If you actually use brightlances (like I do) and since black guardians will be gone, serpents are the best mounts for them.

But I would use it to transport assault troops: scorpions or storm guardians. With holofields a wave serpent can pull right up next to the thing it wants to assault and take the shots, then disembark and assault the following turn. The as-yet-unknown capabilities of a dire avenger unit might also greatly benefit from a wave serpent transport, and I'll happly put a farseer & big retinue in one.

It's not about the firepower or the meqs for a transport--that's just bonus shots. You have to consider the increase in effectiveness that a transport gives to *other* units: not only the unit it transports, but also the enemy shots that it takes away of your falcons/prisms, and the way that it increases your falcons' firepower by letting them be pure tanks instead of tank/transports.

Actually, in considering the whole codex, I think that there are some added bonuses to be had.
Like having 2 10 man squads of Fire Dragons instead of 3 6 man squads.
Mount them in WS and you just freed up Falcons to be Fire Prisms, which look like they have a great deal of potential.

The Escalation thing is actually a good thing, as I discussed in the Rumours section, the only viable Eldar list is a heavily mobile list, and in that list, FD in Falcons start on the table, but put them in WS and they start off the table with the rest of the list.
Two viable tactics in Escalation, all on or all off. With Eldar, you clearly want to do all off.

As for not taking a holofield, that is a very foolish thing to do. It's cost is entirely negligiable for the VAST amount of protection it offers.

As for the two things that it needs to do, I think it does the second one well enough.
Consider the likely targets for FD, Termies, MCs & Oblits. With WS, you can include more FDs and can hit them much harder than a 6man. They can also add the WS firepower to the mix to help remove that last model or wound, which would otherwise cause major problems.

Field positioning, blocking charges to take objectives (thereby allowing scoring units to score in objective missions)

Really, they seem alot better now that they don't instantly die.

The rumor about the holofield is news to me. If it CAN take one with a holo field and vectored engines as those have been discussed, you just made the wave serpent VERY TOUGH. You sure pay a premium for it though. I'll take the easy way out and reserve my vote till I'm fondling the goods.

Jesus christ. You can put holofields on serpents?

If that's true, I am quitting 40k.

3 serpents with spirit stones,holofields,whatever with 10 fire dragons each, 3 falcons with the kit.

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to kill a holofielded, spirit stoned wave serpent with lascannons? Man, GW is slowed.

For reference it's around 36 shots.

I play eldar and I hope they don't do that. it seems too potent.

Hey gang: I just want to point out that:

10x Firedragons + Exarch Upgrade + Waveserpent + Spirit Stones + Holofield + Vectored Engines + Twinlink Weapon of Choice will probably run 350 points.

If you take three of these, you're running over 1000 points in Elites. Add in your two lame duck troops choices (cheapest option is around 100 points)

Now you're at 1250. 600 to go. Another 100 for your HQ, and 500 for "unit of choice" - probably Falcons I guess.

So the breakdown of this list is:

200 points on compulsory guys which you can use as a scoring unit who will probably not make their points back.

450 points on non-scoring invicible transports.

1100 points on killy and squishy fire dragons and invincible falcons. Woot.

100 points on an autarch to try and mitigate the "escalation" screw.

Is this list "too good"?

Thoughts: It looks like Escalation can seriously hamper this army. If your opponent spreads out into a few camps, he can blunt your firedragon rush due to the FD 12" range. The FD can only engage 3 units a turn. The FD loose utility if they're engaged in HTH. FD loose effectiveness when the enemy is in cover. Any redeploys will eat into the precious 4-5 shots they get per game as will Escalation. Also, making the FD units and the Eldar troops units non-scoring is fairly trivial.

Back on topic: Waveserpents for Firedragons are worth the investment. Waveserpents for anything else are not. The designers have given the Eldar all this fabulous speed, but reduced the punch that acompanies it in most cases. The firedragons are an exception.

Food for thought.

which is why i keep a minimum sized squad inside my fish so it always scores

 

but then again i run my tau as a tank company the same way i would run an eldar serpent/falcon force. the troops are only there because i have to have them to get the transport and they would never get out unless they had to.

Hey Keezus, just out of curiosity what armies do you play?

I don't think you have played Tau, which is the best comparison.

This is a VP denial force.
The objective of VP games is to get more VPs from them then they give to you.

There are two ways to do this. The more standard way, SAFH style or Daemonbomb use is to kill vast swathes of the enemy, attempting to kill as much as possible before dying.

The Tau are no good at that, and neither are the Eldar. However, what they are good at is killing a decent amount, and not dying.

Either way can yield large differences in VPs.

If you deploy into seperate "camps" in the hopes of forcing the FDs to redeploy and waste shots, you will lose. They will send their force at one of your camps, decimate it and then retreat, exchanging long range fire with Falcons or Fire Prisms which you will be lucky to ever bring down.

You get the 550 VPs or so off of the serpents and they get whatever portion of VPs was in a camp, plus the incidental kills (which could be large if you field vehicles or MEQs or Termies or Oblits or MCs)

Or they try and string you out, while taking down anything that moves fast and redeploy across the board, raking your force with fire and avoiding as much return fire as possible.

Now sure, this is optimal, and in no way will you be able to prevent return fire, just as much as you won't be able to kill the entire enemy army while suffering few casualties with a SAFH. You do the best you can with tactics and understand that there will be losses. If you are very good, they will be minimal in either case.

Sure your 110pts fish with 60pts of FWs inside
Total cost 170pts scores 60 vps! hoorah!

Vsurma: it scores 60 and denies 170 to the enemy (because it didn't get shot down) for a total VP advantage of 230.

This is what a falcon with a holofield or an uber seer council does currently: they may only kill a few things, but they deny your opponent hundreds of victory points he might otherwise get.

TheHappyAnarchist:  I have an Eldar list, a shooty chaos list with obligatory fast countercharge HQ, dark eldar and a smallish marine force.

Anyhow, to summarize my thoughts a little - If I'm forced into playing a denial game, and can't crack their vehicles, why not force the Eldar to redeploy?  So what if they're fast... it takes valuable "turns" to redeploy.

If they come at me all across the board, I'll beat 'em with weight of numbers - due to the expense of their Uber Taxis -  If not, they'll sacrifice at least half a game's worth of shooting - (Turn 1 Shoot - Turn 2 Maneuver - Turn 3 Shoot, Turn 4 maneuver, Turn 5 shoot - assuming they live to Turn 5 while maneuvering.  This is even more brutal in Escalation, where you might be able to nerf FD shooting by over 2/3s depending on how their reserve rolls go.  In the mean time, set up overlapping lines of fire and punish them every time they disembark...

If I can knock down a squad of firedragons after they vaporize one of my units - or manage to charge one of them, the Eldar will be in a precarious position and will have no choice but to advance after the next firebase.

My 2 cents.

The Happy Anarchist - Are Wave Serpents really that bad?

Yes

Waveserpents are that bad, 4th edition makes them worse here is the list:

Escalation

Too expensive, they equate to predators after equiped, ridiculous

No assaulting out of them

Emergency disembark rules for fast units

They don't block LOS

Only transport in the game with one Exit point in the back (at least a Dfish has 3)

AV12

BS3

Their average firepower 4-7 shots < Chimera/Imperial Tanks at 9+

Short range, firepower hard to use, (SCs at 12 inches are laughable leaving essentially a single heavy weapon (albiet twinlinked gun) for over 100 points)

CONCLUSION: Cool looking but sub standard, making them more expensive with wargear? Adds to an existing problem.

Well, to be fair,
4 TL Scatter Laser shots, 3 hit, roughly 2.5 wounds.
3 ML shots, 1.5 hit, 1.25 wounds
3 HB shots, 1.5 hit, 1 wound
3 Stubber shots, 1.5 hit, .75 wounds.

Total wounds with Scatter Laser are 2.5, total with Chimera are 3.

Not to much of a difference.
Also, TL Starcannons were recently pointed out as not being that bad after all.
2 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.25 kills. Including MEQ saves, that is better than the Chimera by .25 vs MEQ.

TL Brightlance is pretty reliable for anti-vehicle shooting as well.
Lots of options on the Serpent for firepower.

Of course, the Chimera is much cheaper. We will have to see if the WS is being lowered in price, or getting holofields. If either or both of those happen, there is alot of potential.

The Happy Anarchist - the Chimera is much cheaper. We will have to see if the WS is being lowered in price, or getting holofields. If either or both of those happen, there is alot of potential.

A lot of potential? Yes, a lot of potential to have even less stuff in an Eldar army...

Typically an Eldar army with Waveserpents is 2 serpents and squads, because they are about 300 points, 2 super falcons, and support guys, and it still usually has an abysmal amount of AT firepower (Dont get me wrong Star Cannons were great vs MEq but rumors have them at only 2 shots now.) Eldar cant bring enough stuff with 150 point transports, maybe the new codex will fix that, but I doubt it...

Lets talk about spread, spread is the totality of outcomes.  This is a counter argument to the simple calculations that showed up before, (that are actually a pretty good argument for equivalency between the serpent and a chimera)... Spread basically allows for outlier results, meaning having 9 shots means, occasionally, having 9 hits, or beating the odds.  Having 2 or 3 shots has a cieling, lets say everything hit, 2 shots a turn is 12 hits in a 6 turn game, while 9 shots a turn is 54 (a 3rd of which is still 18).  Relying on 2 shots a turn to do the job creates an upper limit on effectiveness, meaning a serpent could never destroy more than 12 marines (targets) in a perfect game, while a Chimera could potentially destroy 54 (but even with armor saves 18) and for less points too, but I digress.  If the averages are even close at all its better to go with the chimera becasue of spread, it is possible the chimera could get more, but it is IMMPOSSIBLE that the serpent could get more.  This builds in a factor of point of failure, once there are more targets than 2 shots a turn can take, the Eldar have already lost.  If they tool up to take MEq, and meet IG for example statistically they can never destroy the army (with firepower) its an inherent limit. Make sense?

So the conclusion, while the numbers might look close for MEq killing power, actually, they are not.

Serpents are a pretty rough deal, hopefully they will be a lot cheaper in the new dex, furthermore, hopefully the Shuriken Cannon upgrade will be cheaper also, potentially giving it 6 shots at 24 inches instead of 2 or 3. We will have to see.  I have an Eldar army too and I sure would love for them to be more viable!  Right now, theyre overpriced and under effective.

Hmm. You have a very odd idea bout the level of AT and compisition of Eldar armies.

I am working off of the rumours of the new dex, I agree that they are way overpriced and undercapable in the last one.

Usually there are 3 Falcons, each of which puts out (in the new dex) 2 Pulse Laser shots, which isn't to bad for anti-tank.
Beyond that, Vypers with Bright Lances, WS can carry BL and then the main thing to be transporting is Fire Dragons, which got a boost as well.

Shuriken Cannon upgrade is rumoured to be costing less in the new one, so there is also that to look for. S6 isn't too bad in a pinch for AT, particularly with fast skimmers.

As for spread vs average, with some armies that is a factor, but I don't believe it is as much of a factor with Eldar. I'll explain why.

On the table, when I am making my moves, I can choose to plan my turn based on averages, or allowing for outliers. With such a fragile army, I don't want to rely on being lucky, so I will carefully pick each engagement with as much force as can be brought to bear, with an average result at least 25% or so more than I need to get the job done. This helps to account for poor rolling. (Note, this doesn't apply to incidental fire that doesn't expose the unit, such as long range shots at lone targets and the like)

Now, there are times where I might be tempted to go for broke and see if luck can get me those extra kills.
With a Guard Chimera, I may very well do that, as it is low cost and ultimately, a unit I can likely sacrifice for that chance. (Myself, I still probably wouldn't do it, as I dislike sacrificing units without as sure as possible a chance to do some good)
With Eldar however, there is no way whatsoever I will choose that option, even if they did have more shots than a Chimera, but the same average. Simply because I can evade much better, which will keep the opponent from getting a chance to earn points off of the WS.

All in all, it is true that outliers can help, but relying on them is not playing to your strengths, it is relying on luck.

If you are lucky, you may get 9 MEQ kills out of a Chimera. The same luck with a TL Scatter laser will only get you 4. Starcannon only 2. With less luck they may all get 0.

You can't determine when that luck shows up, but you know that most results will tend towards the average, so that is what you plan for.
It's nice when you can do more, but the average is what you can count on, over time.

The Waveserpent is very: "Eldar". i.e. doing one thing really well, and kind of sucking at everything else.

Good at moving troops from one point to another (up to 24" ignoring terrain, rumuored holofield). Its just there to make sure its cargo arrives alive. What they do once they get there is their own problem. Fairly durable if it retains the E-shield (rumoured gone) or if they get the holofield (rumoured yes IIRC). Shooting - BS3 - so middle of the road. Lots of weapon options, but no game-breaker. - Not a Main Battle Tank. Light gunboat at best.

Vectored Engines
Holofield / Waveserpent Shield (arguably) and Spirit Stones
Fast
Skimmer

Points Cost - Most expensive dedicated transport after the Landraider. But I guess you pay for quality.

So that's great Bob, what doesn't it do???

Blocking LOS - N/A - Skimmer (NOTE - it blocks LOS when it's dead, but that kind of defeats the purpose)
Embarked troop shooting - N/A - No fire-points
Claiming objectives - N/A - Then again, only the Land Raider gets this because they're special.
Assault Ramp - N/A - See above.
Split Fire - N/A - See above.
Landing Gear - N/A - Eldar vehicles never land.
Multiple Access Points - N/A
Open Topped / Assault from Vehicle - N/A - Apparently fluff for atmospheric flight, but...
Deepstrike - N/A

Its too bad that it either ferrys around guys with T3 12" range super guns (or many-shot guns) or T3 guys that really have to hope the enemy is still in range so that they can hit them with a sword or fist.

Strangely, the Dark Eldar raider does almost everything above - better than the Waveserpent - except the major issue of having NON-EXISTANT DURABILITY. It is just as fast, it mounts a "starcannon-lite" blaster or lance at BS4!, is open topped for drive by shooty goodness or drive by assaults... AND costs less than half the cost of their craftworld brethern. These bad boys can even buy deepstrike.

The Ork truck ALSO does almost everything above, except it doesn't skim, has laughable durability and has BS2, but still has nice gun options of Rokkit or Big Shoota, lets you drive by shoot, or assault, can get +1 movement from a Red Paint Job, grot riggers re-mobilize on a lucky roll... and the be-all-and-end-all lucky ARMOR PLATE. Haha. All for about the cost of 2 jetbikes.

If you can take 30 firedragons in holofielded, spirit stoned waveserpents and 3 falcons with holofields and spirit stones, there will be no army that can stand against it.

That's only around 1300 pts. For 6 nearly unkillable vehicles with heavy weapons, 30 meltaguns, and so forth.

If you really don't think a holofielded serpent is amazing, you're nuts. It's even more resilient than a falcon. Sure it doesn't score. But you don't need to score when you've wiped your opponent's army off the board with meltaguns by Turn 3.

You can feel free not to believe me, but wait for it. If holofields go on waveserpents, Eldar will be the best army in 40k.

An interesting idea (of course, it makes me wonder of GW, with their release of the plastic WS, wasn't crazy like a FOX). What do you do for the rest, especially troops? Jetbikes? Guardian with SLs? I'm assuming Jetbikes, plus a Farseer and Autarch on bikes for the +1 Reserve and the buffs. What about counterassault? In 1850 would there still be enough points/slots for...what? Warp Spiders? Shining Spears?

I think it's awfully fragile after the disembark...

Killing 30 4+ armor saves in a turn is not something very many armies can do. And if they don't kill them, it means - you guessed it. More meltaguns. Even a single firedragon is dangerous to a vehicle or terminator heavy army. And even if you do kill them all, that's about 4 las/plas squads worth of points - not really that significant.

There's 1000 points worth of nearly indestructible vehicles they've got to get in order to win the game, because the firedragons will make their points back in one round of shooting if you use them correctly.

I would probably take all jetbikes, anything that gets an assault move really (warp spiders would be fine). Make them shoot at your tanks and nothing else.

So let's look at it.

You hide everything you can first turn. Then you roll out 24" with the things that can't shoot, and get another hiding spot. If you can shoot, go for it. Next turn you move 12" and unleash fire dragons. 30 fire dragons hit the board and deal out 20 hits, 17 or so AP1 wounds to anything (or kill 3 vehicles outright).

Assuming the FD's were able to get into 5+ cover, it will take 9 heavy bolters (27 shots) to kill a squad (27 shots, 18 hits, 15 wounds, 10 dead). If they weren't in 5+ cover, it's still 6 heavy bolters (18 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds) to kill a squad. Two squads of rapid firing fire warriors will kill (48 shots, 24 hits, 20 wounds, 10 dead dragons) one squad. Pretty sad.

30 Fire dragons can kill three carnifexes in 5+ cover in one turn with a tiny bit of support (they deal around 3.7 wounds to a T6 carni). Heh.

I gotta wonder if we're talking about the same vehicle here.

-Skimmers don't enter terrain in 4th edition, so they never need vectored engines. Can't use em, in fact
-Emergency disembarkation only kicks in when a vehicle is penetrated. Skimmers moving fast can't be penetrated. So a lucky shot in turn one before you moved, or a lucky shot the turn after being stunned (less than 9% chance with a holofield) and in both those rare cases the disembarked squad isn't wounded by the hit because the skimmer didn't move.
-Wave serpents are not BS 3; they are BS 4.5 (because all their weapon options are twin-linked)
-Not blocking LoS is a good thing
-If you have a holofield, AR12 is enough. It's not that you avoid taking hits, it's that you shrug off most of the rolls on the glancing hit table. An AR12 skimmer with a holofield moving fast is *more* survivable than a land raider against any weapon that can damage them both.
-Fire dragons are not the only thing in the Eldar list. Personally I don't like their one-shot-and-die limited usefulness. I'd use my holofield-equipped serpents to transport storm guardian ez-bake squads.

Finally, does everybody on this thread understand what a holofield actually does?

Without a holofield a skimmer that takes a glancing hit is (1) 100% at least not going to shoot next turn and (2) has a 33% chance of being destroyed (and killing 37% of its 4+ save passengers).

With a holofield a skimmer that takes a glancing hit is (1) 33% going to completely ignore the hit with no effect and (2) only has a 9% chance of being destroyed.

Sure they might change holofields so the numbers break down differently in the new codex. But with the point values and rules we know now, adding a holofield is not loading up with unecessary wargear.

And, okay, more access points would be nice. But it doesn't make the transport useless.

With what we know about holofields and spirit stones in the new codex, here's the way hits break down. There are 36 possible combinations of dice. New codex spirit stones are equal to extra armor. Vectored engines will let you land safely even though you move fast though you are still immobilized (half points)

1,1 shaken
1,2 shaken
1,3 shaken
1,4 shaken
1,5 shaken
1,6 shaken
2,1 shaken
2,2 shaken
2,3 shaken
2,4 shaken
2,5 shaken
2,6 shaken
3,1 shaken
3,2 shaken
3,3 shaken
3,4 shaken
3,5 shaken
3,6 shaken
4,1 shaken
4,2 shaken
4,3 shaken
4,4 weapon destroyed
4,5 weapon destroyed
4,6 weapon destroyed
5,1 shaken
5,2 shaken
5,3 shaken
5,4 weapon destroyed
5,5 immobilized (lands, due to vectored engines)
5,6 immobilized (lands, due to vectored engines)
6,1 shaken
6,2 shaken
6,3 shaken
6,4 weapon destroyed
6,5 immobilized (lands, due to vectored engines)
6,6 dead

Let's total those up-
weapon destroyed: 5/36
immobilized: 3/36
dead: 1/36
shaken: 27/36

So 27 out of 36 shots at a falcon/waveserpent with a holofield (75%) will do nothing except prevent it from shooting.

To get full victory points for a waveserpent with the right kit, you must:
Deal a 6/6 result
Deal 4 weapon destroyed or immobilized results (2 guns, immobilized, and immobilized/weapon destroyed again). Your odds of doing this are pretty slim. Even with penetrating hits it is very hard to kill a holofielded vehicle, which you can only do after you've immobilized it (8.3% chance).

So under normal circumstances, 3 kitted waveserpents and 3 kitted falcons is 540 points of victory point denial, that you simply cannot realistically get. That's power.

There might be a rule that you get vps when you strip all the guns and immobilize a vehicle actually, I forget doesn't really matter all that much, I guess.

You only get points if it's immobilized; it can be stripped of guns, but if it still moves, it's still 0vps.

Thanks for the info on the new spirit stones and vectored engines, Longshot (I missed that bit in the rumor thread). So they don't crash anymore, but they shoot a lot less.

...and don't forget that it's not only the points denial, but in gamma/omega level anihillation, recon and center-of-board games you get the value of the scoring unit as bonus VPs. So a 200 point falcon with no weapons left that is parked in the right spot at the end of the game is worth 400 VPs total, as long as it's mobile.