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I hadn't actually considered the AML. It certainly looks a lot better than the Reaper Launcher as a way to give your Exarch a little punch while still letting you use him to tank the first single-damage hits you take.

I'm actually a little tempted now to try a Shuriken Cannon on the Exarch. With that the Exarch is 17 points for 2 T3 3+ wounds, probably in cover. The squad is hugely more resilient in the face of heavy bolter or assault cannon fire at that point. Probably the AML is still better as a compromise, though.

I use the shuriken cannon when my 3 reaper squad is in a WS. When I have a 5 or larger unit in the backfield I go EML to shoot down the flyers.

Out of interest, why the Shuricannon with mounted squads? Reapers always hit on a 3+ so there is no downside in them moving and firing Heavy weapons.

It is really a point saver and at close range the extra shots back up the shurcannons from the WS for some horde clearing.

Anyone used Corsair bikers with desonance cannons or dark lances? They are interesting me currently but at this point the EML is tops for me.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Anyone used Corsair bikers with desonance cannons or dark lances? They are interesting me currently but at this point the EML is tops for me.

Missile Launcher isn't an option on Corsair Bikes.

I realize that. EML comment was more of a general statement referring back to the prior conversation.

One thing that's occurred to me with the back-and-forth on the Reaper exarch that I thought worth bringing to the thread's attention for the purposes of future planning; will the shuriken cannon option survive to the codex? I don't believe the current kit has it and whilst I've not followed the various N&R threads as closely as I could, I have seen a few moans that particular upgrades or even units have been quietly dropped as "No Model No Rules". In fact, we could extend this across the range, I think only Avengers and possibly Dragons have all the exarch options in the box, don't they? (Disclaimer - my Hawks are old metal ones, so I'm not sure about them).

Perhaps not strictly speaking "tactics" and I know that "Grandfather rights via Index" exist, but it may be something to bear in mind.

What is the current thinking on Rangers? I had assumed them to be among the best snipers in the game... because well, they're rangers.

But after looking at their stats and rules... Comparing them to ratlings...

Both carry the exact same weapon, and have the same chance to hit and wound. So their killing power is identical.

Rangers have a -1 to hit bonus, and +1 armour save. +2 to leadership too. So they'll be harder to kill off.

But 5 rangers is 100 points. You can get 15 ratlings for 105 points. 5 rangers will not kill a character in a turn, 15 ratlings might.

Seems to me that ratlings are actually a pretty decent unit for IG, but rangers are.... I don't know.

Yes, Rangers are the worst snipers in the game, as far as I know, and snipers are generally bad. Ratlings are pretty good, but that's about it outside of FW, where there are also Elysian snipers. Craftworld Eldar don't really have a Troops choice that's at all worthwhile other than Guardian Defenders in a Serpent.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yes, Rangers are the worst snipers in the game, as far as I know, and snipers are generally bad. Ratlings are pretty good, but that's about it outside of FW, where there are also Elysian snipers. Craftworld Eldar don't really have a Troops choice that's at all worthwhile other than Guardian Defenders in a Serpent.

I just read the Elysian Sniper entry (though this isn't really Eldar related haha), but I can't see how they're better than ratlings...

Elysians get +1T and +1W, and a Lasgun that means they could shoot two weapons in that turn which is interesting... and they both end up with a 4+ in cover... but they lose the ability to move after shooting, and... huh

Elysians Snipers are 3 power for 3 models, Ratlings are 2 Power for 5 models... but in points, they're both 7 points per model. So in points, Elysians are great.

Weird.

But not Eldar related haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

To add some more Eldar related questions -

1) Which of these Wraithlord loadouts would you think are better on the table?

Wraithlord + 2xShuri-catapults + Ghostglaive = 113

Wraithlord + 2xFlamers + Ghostglaive = 131

Wraithlord + 2x Flamers + 2x Shuri-Cannon + Ghostglaive = 155

Or some other combination? Dropping flamers for catapults saves 18 points, though in the past flamers were always the better option. However keeping them as cheap 113 point melee monsters has it's own advantages.

I'd be running it with a D-Cannon Wraithseer probably, and there would be 2 D-Scythe wraithguard squads on the table too in serpents so...


Question 2)
If there were 3 wraithguard units on the table, 2x D-Scythe units and 1x Wraithblades unit, and you only had two wave serpents, which two units would you put in serpents and what would you do with the third? (Same army as the one above, so there would be a couple Lords on the table too).

In regards to the Rangers points efficacy, they really are not worth the points in the Index. They do not cause enough damage for their points investment, if they deploy forward to slow down DS they just get overwhelmed by enemies 1st turn shooting and allows them to springboard up the board with an assault move. You need to be spending 180pts just to cause an average of 1 Mortal wound. Guns do not have sufficient rate of fire or AP to threaten even the weakest of enemy characters.

With regards to the previous poster, in a list like you have described I would leave the Wraithblades to footslog. The D-Scythes will be more of a threat to your opponent so you need to protect them more. And seeing as your army is a close up one, it's biggest weakness when it's working will be melee units assaulting you, at which point the blades make a good counter assault unit.

Wraithlords are best either as bare bones for cheapest points investment, or with double flamers for anti assault loadout. Main weapons depends entire on role. If you moving up the board then Shurikan Cannons as they done suffer the -1 to hit. If they are more backfield gun posts, then the Heavy weapon of your choice depending on what your army needs more of. In this instance catapults are best on the arms to save points unless you are expecting more than 1 or 2 DS units in your backfield.

Drake003 wrote:
In regards to the Rangers points efficacy, they really are not worth the points in the Index. They do not cause enough damage for their points investment, if they deploy forward to slow down DS they just get overwhelmed by enemies 1st turn shooting and allows them to springboard up the board with an assault move. You need to be spending 180pts just to cause an average of 1 Mortal wound. Guns do not have sufficient rate of fire or AP to threaten even the weakest of enemy characters.

With regards to the previous poster, in a list like you have described I would leave the Wraithblades to footslog. The D-Scythes will be more of a threat to your opponent so you need to protect them more. And seeing as your army is a close up one, it's biggest weakness when it's working will be melee units assaulting you, at which point the blades make a good counter assault unit.

Wraithlords are best either as bare bones for cheapest points investment, or with double flamers for anti assault loadout. Main weapons depends entire on role. If you moving up the board then Shurikan Cannons as they done suffer the -1 to hit. If they are more backfield gun posts, then the Heavy weapon of your choice depending on what your army needs more of. In this instance catapults are best on the arms to save points unless you are expecting more than 1 or 2 DS units in your backfield.

I'm a little confused... you say the best loadout is either bare bones, or with a double flamer, but then go on to say that you should add main weapons lol. So you pretty much say that all possible loadouts are the best! Haha

Niiru wrote:

I'm a little confused... you say the best loadout is either bare bones, or with a double flamer, but then go on to say that you should add main weapons lol. So you pretty much say that all possible loadouts are the best! Haha

Lol. It's all about application. How your going to use them and the context of the other elements of your army. Bare bones is great if your using as meat shield for character, or to tie up scouts etc. Flamers are best employed if being very aggressive or against an army with a number of deepstrike units, especially those that rely on infantry choices for this. Shoulder Weapons only if you need the extra firepower, and in which case Cannons when moving up the field, otherwise whichever weapon option you need depending on any gaps in your army, such as Scatter Lasers if you need more horde killing and want to keep away from them or bright lance if you need more anti tank, Missile Launcher for an all rounder.

It's not as simple as a "best option" as it is very contextual, especially with Eldar which has alway been a bit of a jigsaw army, where each piece has a specific role and you need the right balance to get the whole to come together.

Drake003 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I'm a little confused... you say the best loadout is either bare bones, or with a double flamer, but then go on to say that you should add main weapons lol. So you pretty much say that all possible loadouts are the best! Haha

Lol. It's all about application. How your going to use them and the context of the other elements of your army. Bare bones is great if your using as meat shield for character, or to tie up scouts etc. Flamers are best employed if being very aggressive or against an army with a number of deepstrike units, especially those that rely on infantry choices for this. Shoulder Weapons only if you need the extra firepower, and in which case Cannons when moving up the field, otherwise whichever weapon option you need depending on any gaps in your army, such as Scatter Lasers if you need more horde killing and want to keep away from them or bright lance if you need more anti tank, Missile Launcher for an all rounder.

It's not as simple as a "best option" as it is very contextual, especially with Eldar which has alway been a bit of a jigsaw army, where each piece has a specific role and you need the right balance to get the whole to come together.

Ahh, that makes sense. It's a shame that the wraithseer is a 12 wound character, and so cant be hidden from attacks. Tempting to run an Avatar though, though it would mean not running a Ynnari army. Probably something to plan for after the codex is out.

Edit: Actually, I could run an Avatar in a seperate detachment, which means I could add in a couple units to back it up, perhaps ones that also don't benefit from Ynnari. Not sure it's particularly optimal though.

I really like the idea of the Wraithseer but for me it just isn't tough enough or impactful enough when factoring in that it cannot hide like most characters.

Avatar certainly can, but then whole nature of the army would change as he is a lot slower than much of the other Eldar units, so to get best use out of him, he actually would slow down your force. You could work around that by doing things like harassing enemy flanks whilst sending him down the middle, and only committing to fully engaging enemy when he is in melee range, though that is probably making your army and tactics unnecessarily narrow.

I think Avatar may have more application once the Codex comes out. If they make guardians catapults longer range or more shots, or reduce the guardians points, then they become more viable to field outside of WaveSerpent. At that point, Avatar supporting an infantry attack, backed up by Wraithlord/ melee units will make a lot more sense. For now imho I don't think he adds enough to justify the change in tactics and dynamics to include him.

Yvraine + Sword of Sorrows = 132

Farseer + Singing Spear = 120

5x Wraithguard + D-Scythes = 225
Wave Serpent + Twin Shuriken Cannon + Shuriken Cannon + Spirit Stones + Star Engines + Vector Engines = 173

5x Wraithguard + D-Scythes = 225
Wave Serpent + Twin Shuriken Cannon + Shuriken Cannon + Spirit Stones + Star Engines + Vector Engines = 173

5x Wraithblades + Ghostswords = 175

Hemlock Wraithfighter + 2xHeavy D-Scythe = 211

Total = 1434


This is the core of the army I'm considering. I already have the two serpents and the two wraithguard squads and the HQ's, would just need a wraithfighter and wraithblades.

What do you think? What would be needed to round out the list? Considering harlequins in a starweaver, or wraithlords (though not sure if they will fulfil a need?) and not sure what else.

You definitely want a third wave serpent for the wraithguard. And then could pick up a second hemlock. With the points left over then just stick to the mech theme and grab a nightspinner.

Anyone have any experience running Corsair bikes with desonance cannons or Dark Lances?

Wyldcarde wrote:
You definitely want a third wave serpent for the wraithguard. And then could pick up a second hemlock. With the points left over then just stick to the mech theme and grab a nightspinner.

Interesting... never really thought about a night spinner, or seen it mentioned much on here. Didnt really know much about it. Indirect fire in eldar is an odd one

Niiru wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.

Buffing the Wraithknight would be good. It is currently over-priced by 80-100 points compared to Imperial Knights and they are hardly powerhouse models.

The Wraithlord IS a new model. :p. Look how much better it is than the old metal models.

Well I mean yeh, it's newer than the old metal models... but it's still a very old model! I think I bought the plastic wraithlord I own 10 years ago or more. Shame there's no alternative models available from other companies. I don't dislkike the model exactly, it's just a bit plain and has weird hips. Could use a better sculpt imo

edit:
Also kinda infuriating that since the wraithlord plastic was released, the monkeighs have gained contemptor dreads, leviathan dreads, deredeo dreads, a bunch of tanks and superheavies, half a dozen or more Imperial Knights, the Dreadknight... I'm sure there's more, and that's just the vehicles. Eldar got the Wraithknight (currently unplayable, apparently), and... oh, shadow spectres. Orks got gorka+morkanaut. I think Tau got the most new stuff from battlesuit variations, but that still doesn't match the imperium options.

It's why I keep considering making an imperium army, just because they actually get new toys to play with.

Though I'm also seriously considering writing my own rules for units for Eldar, using Imperium models as a base. The rules would never be tournament legal obviously, but I only play friendly games.

A bit late, but the Wraithlord is actually quite easy to repose, and can be made to look much ncooler than the bland, boring thing on the box. My Wraithlord is running, all that was needed was cutting and reassembling one leg at the knee to bend it, and then greenstuffing the gaps.

The finecast aspect warriors are what actually needs resculpts, as well as the Phoenix Lords if they actually want people to like them.

Keep in mind if using flamers to overwatch Deep strike units. If that is a role in the backfield then those weapons will not be useful.

Niiru wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
You definitely want a third wave serpent for the wraithguard. And then could pick up a second hemlock. With the points left over then just stick to the mech theme and grab a nightspinner.

Interesting... never really thought about a night spinner, or seen it mentioned much on here. Didnt really know much about it. Indirect fire in eldar is an odd one

Considering dropping one of the D-Scythe squads, and having some different units in there instead. Jetbikes maybe...

I'm new to Craftworld Eldar, in another thread people steered me in the direction of some good units, this is what I've been working with:

2 Wave Serpents
10 Wraithguard/blades (magnetized)
Wraithlord
Farseer
2 Warlocks
3 War Walkers
4 Dark Reapers w/ Exarch
Hemlock Wraithfighter

So far I'm 2-1 in my group's small 1000 point beginner games, 2-0 vs. Chaos and lost to nids due to underestimating charge range. It's been fun.

I was thinking of trying out Ynnari. A few people at the LFGS have mentioned taking an Ynnari HQ then using Kabalite Warriors as cheap troop choices. I haven't found much info on using Kabalite Warriors on this forum, what will these do for my army if I include them? Are they fodder to activate SfD?

Also, I've been using Wraithguards with Ghostblades, I haven't been using D-Scythes, I suppose I'm just too afraid of the short range. All my Wraithguard are going into the Wave Serpents, but even then I'm not sure how to disembark them effectively. Any basic tips?

Discodoggy wrote:
I'm new to Craftworld Eldar, in another thread people steered me in the direction of some good units, this is what I've been working with:

2 Wave Serpents
10 Wraithguard/blades (magnetized)
Wraithlord
Farseer
2 Warlocks
3 War Walkers
4 Dark Reapers w/ Exarch
Hemlock Wraithfighter

So far I'm 2-1 in my group's small 1000 point beginner games, 2-0 vs. Chaos and lost to nids due to underestimating charge range. It's been fun.

I was thinking of trying out Ynnari. A few people at the LFGS have mentioned taking an Ynnari HQ then using Kabalite Warriors as cheap troop choices. I haven't found much info on using Kabalite Warriors on this forum, what will these do for my army if I include them? Are they fodder to activate SfD?

Also, I've been using Wraithguards with Ghostblades, I haven't been using D-Scythes, I suppose I'm just too afraid of the short range. All my Wraithguard are going into the Wave Serpents, but even then I'm not sure how to disembark them effectively. Any basic tips?

I think the kabalite are used as a cheap source of troops, but you can't put them in wave serpents so you'd have to buy raiders in order to get them mobile which pumps up their points significantly. Raiders are good transports though, but would take up points you might want to spend on craftworld units. You could run them on foot though and just use them to stop deepstrikers attacking from the rear, and holding objectives in your deployment zone.

They'd only activate SfD if they die, and then only be useful if one of your units was within 6" of them when they die... might be able to use a squad of them to bubblewrap some dark reapers? Or your war walkers... but I don't think they get soulburst so it doesnt help much.

Edit:

Currently on the lookout for alternative models for war walkers... the best I have found so far are the warjacks from Retribution of Scryah, but they're not quite... right... So if anyone has any ideas, do let me know

Yeah kabalite Warriors are there as a cheap troop tax for battalion. I run basic 5 man squads which then are either a bubble wrap, soulburst fodder or backfield objective holders.
If you want to get mileage out of them you can always put them in venoms. Being open topped they spew out a chunk of shots and are difficult to kill.

D-scythe wraithguard seem to be the optimal choice out of a wave serpent. That gives them a surprising threat range of 3+5+d6+8 inches as they disembark and advance without penalty thanks to autohit from dscythe. Plus if ynnari can wotp them to move twice if out of range, tho hopefully they are in position that they can soulburst to shoot twice.

I actually run 2 of my Kabalite units in Venoms. Makes them more relevant and Venoms are great at capturing objectives. Third unit hangs back on foot to keep my home objective covered. Plus I really like the Venom model.

Also, wraithblades have a shorter threat range than the D-Scythe guard and are less flexible. So I wouldn't worry about their threat range when comparing to the blades unit. D-Scythes have the added benefit of auto hitting from overwatch unless enemy charges from outside 8".

Discodoggy wrote:

I was thinking of trying out Ynnari. A few people at the LFGS have mentioned taking an Ynnari HQ then using Kabalite Warriors as cheap troop choices. I haven't found much info on using Kabalite Warriors on this forum, what will these do for my army if I include them? Are they fodder to activate SfD?

Yvraine is the HQ you want, she is a good psyker and the bring the crucial power "Word of the Phoenix" to give you an additional Soulburst action in your psychic phase. Good candidates for this free Soul Burst are long ranged units like Dark Reapers who may not get close enough to Soulburst otherwise.

Kabailtes in a Raider are a much more effective Troop choice than anything Craftworlders have in their arsenal. The Kabalites can stay inside the Raider and still fire thanks to its open-topped rule. This pretty much overcomes the downside of Eldar Troops being so squishy. Load them up with as much splinter as possible and put a Dark Lance on the Raider for a bit of anti-tank. You opponent has to burn through the transport to get to the Troops inside but they can fire at him just fine. Kabalites are not really SfD fodder, they are actually a pretty respectable Troop choice that helps fill slots in your Battallion.

Raiders are hardly indestructible but they are just tough enough to require more effort to bring down than your opponent will want to dedicate to a simple Troop transport.

Discodoggy wrote:

Also, I've been using Wraithguards with Ghostblades, I haven't been using D-Scythes, I suppose I'm just too afraid of the short range. All my Wraithguard are going into the Wave Serpents, but even then I'm not sure how to disembark them effectively. Any basic tips?

I tend to play my Wraithguard fairly aggressively and equip them with D-scythes. Load them into a Serpent with 3 Shuircannons and head straight for the enemy. You can move without compromising your firepower as the Shuricannons are Assault 3 and the Serpent Shield will help keep them alive. Aim to end your move around 14"" of your chosen target at the end of your first movement phase (not hard with Serpents). Your opponent now has a dilemma. He knows that those D-scythes will inflict a lot of damage so he either has to pull back (which may mean leaving a good position or an objective), try to destroy the Serpent and cargo or just grin and bear it.

Shooting down a Serpent in one turn is not easy and 2 is really hard. Having enough guns left over to deal with the WG? Unlikely. If your opponent backs away he will potentially be abandoning cover or objectives. Also he will quickly run of table. If he moves back, keep the WG in their Serpent and move forward into a threatening position.

You only need to be within 14" to threaten a target. With a 3" disembark, 5" move and 8" range, your D-scythes have a 16" threat range from the front of the Serpent. Also if necessary they can advance an extra D6" as the D-scythes auto-hit. 14" is a good distance because it also makes it hard for an opponent to assault. With a 6" move, he will still need to roll an 8 for his charge distanvce meaning he will fail more than half the time. And if he assaults your Serpent, it is not the end of the world as few units are strong enough to kill one in a single round. In your next turn, the WG get out and hose whatever charged their ride while the Serpent withdraws and can still shoot thanks to Fly.

Alternatively, if you are feeling aggressive, get right up in your opponent's face. Even if he backs away, he will not be able to get out of range of the D-scythes.

If you have a couple of Serpents going for your opponent's throat, some Raiders with Kabalites flitting about at medium range and some Reapers in the backfield raining fire on the enemy, your opponent will have no good options as everything in your army is pretty killy and at least moderatelty durable.

 Karhedron wrote:

Discodoggy wrote:

I was thinking of trying out Ynnari. A few people at the LFGS have mentioned taking an Ynnari HQ then using Kabalite Warriors as cheap troop choices. I haven't found much info on using Kabalite Warriors on this forum, what will these do for my army if I include them? Are they fodder to activate SfD?

Yvraine is the HQ you want, she is a good psyker and the bring the crucial power "Word of the Phoenix" to give you an additional Soulburst action in your psychic phase. Good candidates for this free Soul Burst are long ranged units like Dark Reapers who may not get close enough to Soulburst otherwise.

Kabailtes in a Raider are a much more effective Troop choice than anything Craftworlders have in their arsenal. The Kabalites can stay inside the Raider and still fire thanks to its open-topped rule. This pretty much overcomes the downside of Eldar Troops being so squishy. Load them up with as much splinter as possible and put a Dark Lance on the Raider for a bit of anti-tank. You opponent has to burn through the transport to get to the Troops inside but they can fire at him just fine. Kabalites are not really SfD fodder, they are actually a pretty respectable Troop choice that helps fill slots in your Battallion.

Raiders are hardly indestructible but they are just tough enough to require more effort to bring down than your opponent will want to dedicate to a simple Troop transport.

Discodoggy wrote:

Also, I've been using Wraithguards with Ghostblades, I haven't been using D-Scythes, I suppose I'm just too afraid of the short range. All my Wraithguard are going into the Wave Serpents, but even then I'm not sure how to disembark them effectively. Any basic tips?

I tend to play my Wraithguard fairly aggressively and equip them with D-scythes. Load them into a Serpent with 3 Shuircannons and head straight for the enemy. You can move without compromising your firepower as the Shuricannons are Assault 3 and the Serpent Shield will help keep them alive. Aim to end your move around 14"" of your chosen target at the end of your first movement phase (not hard with Serpents). Your opponent now has a dilemma. He knows that those D-scythes will inflict a lot of damage so he either has to pull back (which may mean leaving a good position or an objective), try to destroy the Serpent and cargo or just grin and bear it.

Shooting down a Serpent in one turn is not easy and 2 is really hard. Having enough guns left over to deal with the WG? Unlikely. If your opponent backs away he will potentially be abandoning cover or objectives. Also he will quickly run of table. If he moves back, keep the WG in their Serpent and move forward into a threatening position.

You only need to be within 14" to threaten a target. With a 3" disembark, 5" move and 8" range, your D-scythes have a 16" threat range from the front of the Serpent. Also if necessary they can advance an extra D6" as the D-scythes auto-hit. 14" is a good distance because it also makes it hard for an opponent to assault. With a 6" move, he will still need to roll an 8 for his charge distanvce meaning he will fail more than half the time. And if he assaults your Serpent, it is not the end of the world as few units are strong enough to kill one in a single round. In your next turn, the WG get out and hose whatever charged their ride while the Serpent withdraws and can still shoot thanks to Fly.

Alternatively, if you are feeling aggressive, get right up in your opponent's face. Even if he backs away, he will not be able to get out of range of the D-scythes.

If you have a couple of Serpents going for your opponent's throat, some Raiders with Kabalites flitting about at medium range and some Reapers in the backfield raining fire on the enemy, your opponent will have no good options as everything in your army is pretty killy and at least moderatelty durable.

Thanks! I will give this a shot with my WS and WG next time.

Would you keep Yvraine in the back for the reapers in most cases?

What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?

The three units I'm looking at are Reapers, War Walkers and Hornets, as they seem to be the ones that are the shooty gun platforms for eldar (also the actual gun platforms, but I'm not a fan of the models really, and they seem lackluster, but if you prefer them please say why )

War Walkers get a 5+ invulnerable, and so are pretty tough and can carry two heavy weapons. Being able to squadron means good use of guide etc too I guess.

Hornets are even tougher, and the -1 to hit is better than the 5+ invulnerable of walkers, but they only get it if they advance which mean no heavy weapons - shuriken cannons only. Which seems a waste. Nice models though.

Reapers. The most fragile, but highly accurate and so should be able to do a decent amount of damage. Not sure on the maths yet as to whether they do more or less damage than the other options for the points, but they do seem more fragile and more easily killed off.


So what do people get? I am finding that the only anti-tank in my list is D-Scythes, which are probably better off aimed at big infantry or even hordes than trying to get them in tank killing range..