Switch Theme:

If it were available, would you play?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




If there was a set of rules and miniatures available for modern combat (1990 - 2006), with a line of miniatures (15mm or 25mm) to go with them, would you be interested in playing such a game? The question presumes that all miniatures would be produced at the same scale and you would not be forced to scrouge for acceptable models.

If yes, would you prefer 15mm or 25mm (or another scale)? Which armies should be produced (U.S., China, Iraq, Russia, ...)?

If not, can you explain why?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Megalodon- If there was a set of rules and miniatures available for modern combat (1990 - 2006), with a line of miniatures (15mm or 25mm) to go with them, would you be interested in playing such a game? The question presumes that all miniatures would be produced at the same scale and you would not be forced to scrouge for acceptable models.

ABSOLUTELY! That would be a dream of mine for years come true overnight! I have been trying to put such a game together for some time and have experimented with several rules sets, with the most succes being from Necromunda, for squad level engagements!  I hope this is not just a hypothetical thread as hurts to be tickled.  It has been so hard to find modern/ultramodern figs to piece together a modern scenario.  I surely hope someone does this.

I have already painted, from several different manufacturers:

Russian State security forces
Serbian Irregulars
UN Peace Keepers
North Korean Regulars

and others in my group have done:

Somalian militia
Afghan Fighters
Iraqi Irregulars
US Rangers (in the digiflage)
US Marines (Kuwait, in the chocolate chip)

we also have a Mosque, a village, wrecked cars, Blackhawks, HUMVs, BMPs, BRDMs, predator drones and a host of terrain, it has just staginified a little lately because of lack of a rules system.

 Megalodon- If yes, would you prefer 15mm or 25mm (or another scale)? Which armies should be produced (U.S., China, Iraq, Russia, ...)?

OH YES! and since yes, 25mm, or heroic 25, or 30mm, or 28 or whatever you want to call it would be fantastic, as an aside, if the games scale was one where more than 50 models were concerned, or vehicles rules were included, then 15s might be better, but heroic 25s seem to be a great standard.

Units that would be cool:

Israelis
Palestinian Militia
North Korean Regulars
British Royal Marines
US Navy Seals
Iranian Regulars
Pakistani Regulars
Afghan Tribesmen
Eritreans
Columbian Cartel
Venzuelan Regulars
US Army Striker groups
Civilians
ROK Army
SAS
Spetsnaz...

Any rumors on something coming?

   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




The Hammer

Catachans + banana clip = generic 3rd world fighter. There could also be some good potential for first-world conflicts - pretty much counterstrike on a table - and I know there are SWAT-type figures in production from several manufacturers. There would be interesting potential for peace-keeping type campaigns, where you would win or lose based on some system representing the support of NPCs for your faction's struggle.

@ Augustus: There's a group of rapid anti-GWers in my town who have a quite good little ranked combat system based on the original Chainmail - one die per four men, rolls to exceed armour class only, etc. - which makes for reasonably quick games, plus a slower-paced system for fleet combat. The former could have some potential for larger-scale (company and up) fighting, though with moderns it seems anything not represented in 28mm really asks to be played with MircoArmour or something similar.

More relevantly, the old semi-defunct Warzone/Chronopia rules (very early D20 system - was big in my area for a while as you could get started with literally four $CAD 2.50 troopers and a $3 sergeant and/or heavy weapons trooper to taste - would probably work fairly well for Necromunda-sized combats.

The biggest thing is, aside from FOW, there doesn't seem to be a "global" (I use the term loosely) franchise for historical gaming. GW pretty much set the standard for mass-marketed, uniform Fantasy gaming - whatever the weaknesses of their products, one's geography isn't too much of a barrier to finding opponents. I think there are issues of taste to consider for the kind of centralized, larger corporate sort of enterprise that would basically be needed to have the sort of thing we're talking about - a box set of forty Talibans, ten NATOs and some tribal ruins is politically incorrect in a way that a box of spacemen - even genocidal, theocratic mass-murdering spacemen - can ever be. Imagine the outcry if, for instance, one of Hasbros subsidiaries introduced a tabletop game with pre-painted Sudanese refugee women and janjaweed - "look mommy, in this game the bad yellow soldiers are trying to hurt the good black soldiers." Cool as it would be, a set of crashed Blackhawks and Somali mobs on 50 mm round bases would also raise many hackles. You can kind of see the problem.

Likely 28mm recent historics/moderns will stay in a niche/local environment for this reason, but who knows?

Answering the question, yes, I would. I'm an inveterate ghoul with an interest in current affairs.

When soldiers think, it's called routing. 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




Posted By Augustus on 09/15/2006 8:28 AM

Any rumors on something coming?


There is a set of rules under development and we are looking into the possibility of creating the miniatures for several possible genres. The rules can be easily adjusted for anything from WWI through SciFi, but everything except current events seems to be fairly well represented.

We have play tested at DragonCon with 4 two person teams running U.S Forces, Shia Militia, Sunni Insurgents and U.N. Forces. We had a great time and learned a lot. We will be running the scenario again at Hurricon in Orlando in a little over a week from now.
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Me, not really, too close to the real world.

Do you know that Mongoose is doing just that next year?

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

There used to be various modern skirmish wargame rules (1950 onwards) around, and several ranges of 15mm, 20mm amd 25mm figures.

20mm is the best as it corresponds closely to easily available 1/72 scale models and is a good compromise for weapon ranges.

I would not be particularly interested in such a limited time period but I think the rules could be easily applied to any time period from end of WW2 to the present.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Posted By Megalodon on 09/15/2006 10:38 AM
Posted By Augustus on 09/15/2006 8:28 AM

Any rumors on something coming?


There is a set of rules under development and we are looking into the possibility of creating the miniatures for several possible genres. The rules can be easily adjusted for anything from WWI through SciFi, but everything except current events seems to be fairly well represented.

We have play tested at DragonCon with 4 two person teams running U.S Forces, Shia Militia, Sunni Insurgents and U.N. Forces. We had a great time and learned a lot. We will be running the scenario again at Hurricon in Orlando in a little over a week from now.


Looks like Mingoose will probably beat you to the punch with their Battlefield Evolution game coming out in early '07.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Nervous Accuser




Milwaukee, Wisconsin

I'd like to say yes, but if I did, I'd really be lying.

The simple truth of the matter, for me, is that I am too heavily invested in games that I already don't have enough time to play. 40k, FoW, Necromunda, Warhammer Historical Old West, BFG, and I keep kicking around a WHF army in my head as well.

_________________
Brother Tiberius
D Company Master of Forges: Judge Advocate General
"The ways of the Ninja are inscruitable and hard to see." - Ab3 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

Maybe but to be honest i would only be interested in the Palestinian Freedom fighters boxed set and the Israely occupyers boxed set.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





A bizarre array of focusing mirrors and lenses turning my phrases into even more accurate clones of

It would be cool but everyone would play the U.S. Marines, Seals, SAS, and other counterterrorist units anyway. I don't see many people being drawn to white pickup trucks with a machine gunner on top. Plus, political correctness.

Now, if you included aircraft and the Chinese, I'd definitely go for it. F22s vs. Migs. The Chinese will make those things like their toys - quality, durability and ubiquity.

WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS

2009, Year of the Dog
 
   
Made in lk
Dakka Veteran





Sri Lanka

I'd totally field a third world guerilla army.

Though it would be fun to have one of those "what about us?" armies that no one remembers cause they aren't in the news enough, like Napalese Maoists, or Colombian leftists.




   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

i am sure alot of people would not play US marines if the game was international like WH40K.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

No. Thats too close to real life.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in de
Rampaging Carnifex






Franconia

Dito

I know when it is closing time. - Rascal Mod

"Some people measure common sense with a ruler others with a potato."- Making Money Terry Pratchett
"what's with all the hate go paint something you lazy bastards" - NAVARRO
"You don't need pants for the victory dance." -BAWTRM
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Why does that matter?

Panzees.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Nothing personal to you Augustus.

Because real marines are killing real Afghan tribesmen RIGHT NOW, because we may be going to war with said Iranian troops within the next twelve months. 

Because real troops are coming home dead or maimed right now. 

Because unless its US marines wipe out everyone on the board without a scratch I don't want to play.  If you show up with an Alli Akhbar beheading terrorist army the best  case scenario will be that we don't play. 


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'll put you in the panzee category.

I suppose some value escapism over realism or education.  That's fine, maybe it crosses the boundary between reality and fiction to closely, but is flames of war cool "OK"  only because the human trauma is over 60 years old? so it's safe.  is there an artificial timeline on how old something has to be for a good WARgame? Nonsense.

I would certainly play a game with modern troopers in it, strait out of the headlines, furthermore I think it could be marketed professionaly, educationaly and in good taste.  If you dont think so, fair enough, then dont buy it.

   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

I agree that its a bit too close to home, as it were.

I personally don't have a problem with the idea of such a game, but it will inevitably end up stepping on toes and bruising national pride.


I wouldn't make anything more recent than the Cold War era, but thats just me.




"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

There are plenty of modern computer wargames such as Rainbow 6, Counterstrike, SOCOM, and America's Army, which are popular and successful, do not arouse controversy and deal with thinly disguised analogues of Iraq/Iran and other non-members of the COTW in the GWOT.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 

That’s me Captain Panzee.  I’m a total wuss  (ahh Dakka smileys the agony and the ecstasy have returned)

 

I don't play Flames of War.   Watching the bad Germans duke it out with the bad guy Russians is ok, they haven't been shooting at each other for what, sixty years?

 

I think Blue Loki is spot on.   There needs to be some time lag between the actual events and toy soldiering about it.  You could go so far as the Korean War I would think, but after that nahhh.

 

Having someone walk over who was actually in the battle of Turf Wars 21st century last week just doesn’t seem right.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

You're right, there are plenty out there.  I choose not to play those either.  The question was asked, would I play-the answer -no.  Each to his own.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Im reading an excellent book that hits this topic quite nicely called:

"From Sun Tzu to Xbox; War and Video Games"

by Ed Halter

It presents the link between war and games in a historical context begining with ancient precursor to chess, the development of chess and eventually following the Kriegspiel concept through the developement of modern era wargames, including, lead soldiers and table top recreations. It  finally leads up to the development of spacewar as a computer game and the modern development of graphic war simulations.  For anyone interested in this topic, it's a great read, I got my copy at Borders for $16.95, it's a surprisingly good history of wargaming.

Step out of the comic fiction world occasionally and into the world of history, and maybe even current events, I think anyone could be pleasantly surprised at what they might find, and certainly a bit better informed.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

PS

A game that dipicted Modern and or near future/past time periods and efectively let the players do everything from Medal of Honor WW2/Korean war, through Current events and maybe even up to Halo style fights could really hit the mark, imagine the massive user base of people who enjoy the Popular titles (like Halo, Counterstrike, and Medal of Honor, and Battlefield, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and Call of Duty) now seeing like concepts in miniature.  I could envision it surpasing even 40k with the right licensing deals, good rules and prepainted figures?

What do you think?

   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

Posted By Augustus on 09/18/2006 12:28 PM

I'll put you in the panzee category.



Dude, get bent. None of my friends or family are coming home in body bags or critically injured from fighting Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. "Flames of War" is all *HISTORY* while the conflict in Iraq is going on right now with people dying and getting blown up, right now. People are saying they won't play it because it cuts too close to home, an opinion that is both on topic and not accusing anybody of anything is certainly not worthy of you mouthing off slandering them.

There's a reason why modern doesn't  fare well and this is it.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I personally don't have a problem with moderns, I'd love to do some Africa bushwar type stuff, or even US Rangers vs Mogadishu. But I completely understand why quite a few would flat out not be interested and even offended at a game of US Army vs Shia Militia vs Sunni Milita vs Iraqi National Police etc.  

OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 

Step out of the comic fiction world occasionally and into the world of history, and maybe even current events, I think anyone could be pleasantly surprised at what they might find, and certainly a bit better informed.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

1) comics vs. history.  My wife doesn't watch the news nearly as much as I.  She has a much happier perspective on life. Mmmm is there a relationship? then again maybe its just her shooting skills and magical cakemaking powers. MMM cake.

2) What on earth does history have to do with toy soldiers? 

3) And those who remember history are doomed to repeat it as well.  After all there is nothing new under the Sun.

While I respect your opinion (and apparently Mongoose? is on your side) I disagree. 

John the Panzee Master

 

 

 

 




-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The emotional reaction is a perfectly valid reason not to play ultramoderns. There's no doubt that the distance of time dulls sensibilities towards the pain of victims of earlier wars.

I think also it might not be very interesting. I don't know to what extent the tactics of modern, low-level insurgency warfare can be replicated on the tabletop in the form of an enjoyable game. It seems to me that a lot of the action in Iraq goes like this.

1. Insurgents detonate a roadside mine when a convoy rolls past.
2. The convoy opens up with MGs, grenade launchers, etc. in all directions and calls in air support.
3. The insurgents run away.
4. The convoy counts the casualties on both sides.

In Afghanistan it's a bit more mobile warfare. The NATO troops do a sweep, ambush or get ambushed by the Taliban, and some men on both sides die.

Both situations are not radically different to aspects of the Vietnam war. African bush warfare must be different of course, but has there been any serious study of the tactics, organisation and motivation of the forces involved?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





A bizarre array of focusing mirrors and lenses turning my phrases into even more accurate clones of

I agree with Augustus for the most part. I'll play the game - I have the balls.

Oddly enough, I just realized this might be similar to the video game controversy of modern day combat as well. You see dozens and dozens of WW2 games but as of right now only Battlefield 2 depicts a modern day battlefield. I definitely find it more fun with the jets, helis, the modern tanks, and the MEC/Marine/Chinese battles rather than the limited weapons from WW2 games - no claymore mines and no smoke grenades there. Even Battlefield 1942 with the same battleship/vehicle/jet/infantry isn't as appealing to me. To each his own, but WW2 didn't have that many cool gadgets.

However, I know people wouldn't be as offended if you said US vs. China. I think it'd be a better game anyhow. Unless you somehow like playing a professional army against a militia with pickup trucks, you'll have more variety and army balance with the Chinese.

WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS

2009, Year of the Dog
 
   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

I'm sure somewhere, someone has done some sort of study of the various bush wars. I can't imagine they would be far removed from armed gangs of militia fighting scarcely better disciplined "regular army" troops with the occasional team of serious operators doing merc work.

It's this kind of pseudo-hypothetical warefare that would be interesting to me, as it would be much more balanced than the Mogadishu vs US Army Rangers I mentioned before. I'd hate to be the Somali player if only for the bucket loads of figures that would be needed.

Come to think of it, I believe there's already several modern rulesets out, Copplestone's Street Violence (28mm), there is (or at least was) a modification to the Flames of War ruleset for moderns, though they may be Vietnam era rules. IIRC, The Assault Group has a set of rules for their ultra modern 25mm/28mm miniature line.

There was also a modification of the Command Decision ruleset for moderns, specifically the first Gulf War and supplements for all the small conflicts before and after. No way you could realistically allow US/British forces as they were (are?) overwhelmingly powerful in a conventional conflict.

OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Posted By Augustus on 09/18/2006 12:28 PM

I'll put you in the panzee category.

I would love to be there if you had the arrogance and stupidity to say that to a bud of mine that doesn't like to play those kind of games because they're too close to reality.

  It'd be a contest to see if your teeth or body would hit the ground first right after after you finished that dribble you just spouted.

  This guy is an extremely good 40k player.  He likes it for the escapism, and in rl he's going back  once again to the big sandbox with a ranger company.   Just remember, chummer, not everyone who doesn't like stuff too close to real is a Panzee.

  They might have just fought and survived  it already and don't feel the need to play a game about it.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Denver, CO

I would play. Moderns is an underdeveloped era that needs to be explored. There are a lot of interesting concepts, modern armies, third world agressors, upcoming super powers that are worth taking a look at and exploiting for a good gaming genre. If we're lucky people make actually learn a little about the things that people are arguing about in this thread. Modern low intensity conflict is a dirty business. Having served for the last 14 years, I'd be happy with any system that actually teaches someone what's actually in a marine company.

I also say the military has put massive amounts of effort to studying modern warfare and low intensity conflict since Vietnam. The military also puts a lot of effort into identifying the types of forces it can expect to engage, much of that information is readily available in reports and studies.

I do agree that many people get worked up over this period, but there is a lot good that goes with the bad, just the bad gets more press. You don't here about the sailors winning the Navy Cross defending their units when it was over run in Afganistan. There are plenty of heros, they just aren't power fist wielding chaplains from the emperor's finest.

Given a good set of rules, the figures to match, and I'll give it a go.

usna92

Audaces Fortuna Iuvat
(Fortune Favors the Bold)
<iframe src="http://gamercard.xbox.com/usna92.card" scrolling="no" frameBorder="0" height="140" width="204">usna92</iframe> 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I would play, but I understand those who say they would not. I have an ex-USMC friend who was in Somalia at the time of the battle of Mogadishu, and he'll play any game except Black Hawk Down, for many of the reasons given by others above.

Chris B at the FLGS said:

"I can't fit in another regular gaming day right now and expect to remain married." 
   
 
Forum Index » Dakka Discussions
Go to: