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So, after receiving the valuable advice of the Dakka community, especially that of HBMC and of wight_widow, I have been able to construct a very powerful 1200 point IG list. Following the success of this list, I have decided that the next level of expansion should be explored, the 2000-point army.

That said, there are certain parts of this list that will be used at different point levels. The entries headed in bold will be used for 1200 point games, while everything in the list is used for 2000 point games.

What I would like to know is whether the non-bold additions to the army list are worth their salt, and how I might improve upon the list if they're not. The bold stuff also happens to be what I currently own, while the non-bold only exists on paper, so tell me what I need to discard that I don't own (I also won't change anything in the 1200 list - I like it the way it is).

(The only change to this list when it is being used at 1200 points is that the two meltagun guardsmen in the PHQ swap their weaponry, one for a flamethrower, one for a lasgun.)

Veritian Grenadiers

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Doctrines:

            Restricted Troops: Special Weapon Squads

            Restricted Troops: Storm Trooper Squads

            Alternate Organization: Drop Troops

            Alternate Organization: Grenadiers

            Skills and Drills: Iron Discipline

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HQ – 406 pts

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Command HQ – 101 pts

            Lieutenant (Jr. Officer) w/ Honorifica Imperialis, Iron Discipline

            Veteran w/ Company Standard

            Staff w/ Plasma Gun (2)

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            Support Squad (Anti-tank) – 100 pts

                        Lascannon, Missile Launcher (2)

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            Special Weapon Squad Alpha – 80 pts

                        Meltagun (3) [Deepstrike]

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            Special Weapons Squad Beta – 80 pts

                        Meltagun (3) [Deepstrike]

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            Support Sentinel – 45 pts

                        Multilaser

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Elites – 225 pts

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Storm Trooper Squad Epsilon (5) – 75 pts

            Meltagun (2), Deep Strike

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Storm Trooper Squad Gamma (5) – 75 pts

            Meltagun (2), Deep Strike

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Storm Trooper Squad Sierra (5) – 75 pts

            Meltagun (2), Deepstrike

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Troops – 1016 pts

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Storm Trooper Squad Alpha (8) – 100 pts

            Plasma Gun (2)

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Storm Trooper Squad Beta (8) – 100 pts

            Plasma Gun (2)

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Storm Trooper Squad Delta (8) – 100 pts

            Plasma Gun (2)

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Infantry Platoon Alpha – 343 pts

            Platoon HQ – 70 pts

Lieutenant (Jr. Officer) w/ Power Sword, Iron Discipline

                        Staff w/ Meltagun (2)

            Squad Alpha I – 91

                        Veteran Sergeant, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

            Squad Alpha II – 91

                        Veteran Sergeant, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

            Squad Alpha III – 91

                        Veteran Sergeant, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

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Infantry Platoon Beta – 373 pts

            Platoon HQ – 70 pts

                        Lieutenant (Jr. Officer) w/ Power Sword, Iron Discipline

                        Staff w/ Meltagun (2)

            Squad Beta I – 101

                        Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun

            Squad Beta II – 101

                        Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun

            Squad Beta III – 101

                        Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun

Fast Attack – 90 pts

Sentinel w/ Multilaser – 45 pts

Sentinel w/ Multilaser – 45 pts

Heavy Support – 310 pts

Leman Russ w/ HM Lascannon – 155 pts

Leman Russ w/ HM Lascannon – 155 pts

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2002 points / 1200 points

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Quick note:

2000-Point Army:

132 models

3 Light Vehicles, 2 Heavy Vehicles


1200-Point Army:

77 models

2 Light Vehicles, 1 Heavy Vehicle

CK

No one at all? Just a quick comment is all.

CK

Well, let's see here...

those Special Weapons Squads should probably have a demo charge each, because those are the most destructive man-portable weapons in the game.

I understand that part of the list is about being fluffy and having a Grenadiery feel to it, but I'd still vote to get another las/plas squad in lieu of the third unit of Grenadiers, or cut them and the Command Sentinel for a third Russ. BS4 plasma is nice, but I would still say that more target redundancy or more AT is more valuable to your list.

That aside, Platoon Beta looks like a proper Guard outfit - ablative wounds and lots of lovely, lovely lascannon. Thumbs up from me.

When you finish the expansion, I would suggest that you experiment with Rough Riders. I suspect you will find them worth their weight in gold as disposable counterattackers.

HF with the painting.

Cheers.

Considering I'm only a decent painter when I spend close to an hour per model, I'm going to need all winter break.

I have always been very wary of Demolition Charges. Sure, being able to chuck a Str. 8 AP 2 Ordnance Blasting bomb via a 16 point model sound appealing - I am just not partial to the fact that it is expensive (for a one-shot weapon), can scatter onto my squad and other friendlies nearby, and could completely miss the target. I'd much rather prefer a trio of Meltaguns.

I see what you mean about getting the third Russ. It would definitely help my MEQ-killing power, and I'd only lose 8 Storm Troopers and a Multilaser Sentinel.

I was thinking of another option that presented itself when I realized how inadequate my two PHQs, my CHQ, and my suicide Elite ST's and Special Weapon squads would become when faced with not tanks or massive scary monster-things, but just tons and tons of units, like a 150 model Ork army that I face on a regular basis, or the 130 model Tyranid Swarm army that I fight a little less often.

This option I speak of would free me from taking Rough Riders and might allow me to drop the Anti-tank Command Support Squad in lieu of a Las/Plas gunline squad as you suggested. The Hellhound. Up until now, I haven't had any real experience with it, but after playing as BT with a Hellhound-heavy IG ally, I realized their power. Having the Inferno Cannon is nice enough, but when coupled with a Heavy Bolter and a Heavy Stubber, suddenly this 127 point model is kicking out 6 Str. 5/4 shots (respectively) along with a 24" range Str. 6 template each turn, I knew I had to get one.

This will devastate Tau in urban, and will lay waste to charging guants and orks in larger battles. I'll put up a slightly revised list that will actually save me money and time right after this post.

CK

Veritian Grenadiers

HEADQUARTERS ? 251 pts

Command Platoon ? 251 pts
Command HQ ? 91 pts
Senior Officer w/ Iron Discipline
Staff (3) w/ Plasma Gun (2)
Veteran Staff w/ Company Standard

Special Weapon Squad (6) ? 80 pts
Meltagun (3)

Special Weapon Squad (6) ? 80 pts
Meltagun (3)

ELITES ? 225 pts

Storm Trooper Squad Epsilon (5) ? 75 pts
Meltagun (2), Deep Strike

Storm Trooper Squad Gamma (5) ? 75 pts
Meltagun (2), Deep Strike

Storm Trooper Squad Sierra (5) ? 75 pts
Meltagun (2), Deep Strike

TROOPS ? 1026 pts

Storm Trooper Squad Alpha (8) ? 100 pts
Plasma Gun (2)

Storm Trooper Squad Beta (8) ? 100 pts
Plasma Gun (2)

Storm Trooper Squad Delta (8) ? 100 pts
Plasma Gun (2)

Infantry Platoon Alpha ? 252 pts
Platoon HQ ? 70 pts
Lieutenant (Jr. Officer) w/ Power Sword, Iron Discipline
Staff w/ Meltagun (2)
Squad Alpha I ? 91
Veteran Sergeant, Autocannon, Plasma Gun
Squad Alpha II ? 91
Veteran Sergeant, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

Infantry Platoon Beta ? 474 pts
Platoon HQ ? 70 pts
Lieutenant (Jr. Officer) w/ Power Sword, Iron Discipline
Staff w/ Meltagun (2)
Squad Beta I ? 101
Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Squad Beta II ? 101
Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Squad Beta III ? 101
Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Squad Beta IV ? 101
Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun

FAST ATTACK ? 205 pts

Sentinel w/ Multilaser? 45 pts

Sentinel w/ Multilaser? 45 pts

Hellhound ? 115 pts

HEAVY SUPPORT ? 290 pts

Leman Russ w/ HM Heavy Bolter ? 145 pts

Leman Russ w/ HM Heavy Bolter ? 145 pts


1997 Points

126 Models

3 Light Vehicles
2 Heavy Vehicles

This list provides me with a ton of antitank without compromising my anti-horde capabilities. Here?s a weapons breakdown, with strength 6-5 being anti-infantry, strength 7 as multi-purpose, and strength 8+ as dedicated anti-tank, with the battlecannon as an obvious exception (All standard weapons like Lasguns or Hellguns don?t count strength 4 or less are assumed to be standard weaponry that pose little to no threat to the enemy on their own):

Anti-Infantry: 6
3 Heavy Bolters, 1 Inferno Cannon, 2 Multilasers

Anti-Tank: 20
4 Lascannons, 16 Meltaguns

Multi-Purpose: 16
2 Battlecannons, 14 Plasma Guns

Other Weaponry (Lasguns, etc.): 90
60 Lasguns, 21 Hellguns, 3 Laspistols, 6 Hellpistols

That?s a lot of Dakka.

CK

If you're suffering from a little horde paranoia, there's always the option of running flamers in lieu of meltas/plasmas on the HQs. I've personally always seen Hellhounds as more of a supplement to Basi/Chimmie lists, but you are correct in noting the utility of that template on high-cover boards.

As far as the demo charges go, the trick is in part placement - i.e. DS outside of 12" of your main infanntry force - and in part cold-heartedness. If a few 6-point guardsmen get caught in the backblast, it's all worthwhile so long as 2/3s of those Chaos Terminators fail their Invulnerable saves. If the survivors are subsequently slaughtered by return fire, they have distracted those bullets from more important units. The logic is similar to that used in dismissing some players arguments against plasma on the basis of the 1/9-2/9 chance of the user vaporizing himself - unless they are carrying a lascannon, IG infantry are typically ablative wounds, generally worth less than a comparable number of wounds from the opposing army. You're the Russians at Stalingrad, not the Americans in Mogadishu.

edit - that and the fact that Special Weapons Squads are poor value for points WITHOUT demo charges, especially compared to Veterans, Suicide Officers, or even Stormies. If you still aren't sold on demos, I'd say ditch the SWSs for another Russ, or maybe another las/plas and upgrade one of your sentinels to another Hellhound. Redundancy is rarely a bad thing with Guard.

One useful upgrade on your HQ would be sticking a medic into the command squad. You have the free slot; and it would help with the plasma gun overheat risk.

You are going to get your brains beat in.

1)Stormies are not worth their points.... Why? Hellguns suck, and they cost way to many points. They will be outshot by any shooty unit in the game, and our assaulted by most shooty units as well. lets take your double plasma 10 man squad vs 5 space marines armed with a heavy bolter. both units in the open at 24 inch range. Marines shoot first as they cost less points, and they drop three guys and force a break test. Your stormies shoot back and drop a marine. Marines fire and kill two guys, leaving 5 stormies who now have to test to break. Stormies shoot agiain and drop a marine force a check on the marines. Marines fire again killing two more stormies leaving three..... You get where this is going.

2)Sentinals die to a strong breeze and have a hard time killing enough to make up their points. They should only be taken in an armor rich enviroment or in an all dropping list for the improved comms.

3)Special weapon squads are not good value for points. They are there for access to demo charges. Put the extra meltas into your command squads.

@foil:

I know Stormies aren't worth the points. I probably wont' be taking 6 squads of them, but I've already got two 8-man double Plasma ST squads, in addition to two of the 5-man double Meltagun squads. I'm thinking that if I dropped a Special Weapon Squad, I could take a 5-man triple Melta H.Vet. Squad that will either DS (if I take the Doctrine) or Infiltrate.

sorry wight_widow, I'm still not sold on demo charges. They're just not my thing. I'll drop the second SWS, and put a third Melta in each PHQ and a third Plasma Gun. @Haranin: I don't think it'll be worth it to take an 11pt vet/medic to save two plasma guardsmen.

I'll add up the points tonight and see if I can't scrounge up the points for another Autocannon/Plas squad.

CK

Posted By foil7102 on 09/27/2006 8:46 AM


2)Sentinals die to a strong breeze and have a hard time killing enough to make up their points. They should only be taken in an armor rich enviroment or in an all dropping list for the improved comms.

They're not bad just as straight drop units. 45 points for a distraction and three S6 shots at flank armour isn't that terrible.

Those Special Weapons Squads have GOT to go, though - BOTH of them.

Posted By wight_widow on 09/28/2006 7:19 AM
Those Special Weapons Squads have GOT to go, though - BOTH of them.

Posted By wight_widow on 09/28/2006 7:19 AM

Those Special Weapons Squads have GOT to go, though - BOTH of them.

Agreed. Here's what I came up with:

Veritian Grenadiers

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HEADQUARTERS – 71 pts

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Command Platoon – 71 pts

                Command HQ –71pts

                                Lieutenant (Jr. Officer) w/ Iron Discipline

                                Staff (3) w/ Missile Launcher

                                Veteran w/ Company Standard

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<h1>ELITES – 226 pts </h1>

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Storm Trooper Squad Epsilon (5) – 75 pts

                Meltagun (2), Deep Strike

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Storm Trooper Squad Gamma (5) – 75 pts

                Meltagun (2), Deep Strike

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Hardened Veteran Squad (5) – 76 pts

                Meltagun (3), Bolter

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<h1>TROOPS – 1017 pts </h1>

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Storm Trooper Squad Alpha (8) – 100 pts

                Plasma Gun (2)

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Storm Trooper Squad Beta (8) – 100 pts

                Plasma Gun (2)

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Infantry Platoon Alpha – 343 pts

                Platoon HQ – 70 pts

Lieutenant (Jr. Officer) w/ Power Sword, Iron Discipline

                                Staff w/ Meltagun (2)

                Squad Alpha I – 91

                                Veteran Sergeant, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

                Squad Alpha II – 91

                                Veteran Sergeant, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

                Squad Alpha III – 91

                                Veteran Sergeant, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

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Infantry Platoon Beta – 474 pts

                Platoon HQ – 70 pts

                                Lieutenant (Jr. Officer) w/ Power Sword, Iron Discipline

                                Staff w/ Meltagun (2)

                Squad Beta I – 101

                                Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun

                Squad Beta II – 101

                                Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun

                Squad Beta III – 101

                                Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun

                Squad Beta IV – 101

                                Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Plasma Gun

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<h1>FAST ATTACK – 205 pts </h1>

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Sentinel w/ Multilaser– 45 pts

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Sentinel w/ Multilaser– 45 pts

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Hellhound – 125 pts

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<h1>HEAVY SUPPORT – 475 pts </h1>

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Leman Russ w/ HM Lascannon, Improved Comms – 175 pts

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Leman Russ w/ HM Heavy Bolter, EA – 150 pts

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Leman Russ w/ HM Heavy Bolter, EA – 150 pts

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<h1>1999 Points </h1>

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Army List Breakdown:

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116 Models

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3 Light Vehicles

3 Heavy Vehicles

Any better? It still has 16 dedicated anti-tank weapons, in addition to a ton of antipersonnel and multi-role weapons, only with fewer Storm Troopers (easy on the wallet), and more ablative wounds for Infantry Platoon Lascannons.

CK

Come on, HBMC. I know you have something to critique.

I'd like to know how people without any dedicated counterassault have fared, especially against Marines and Orks.

CK