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So I have played my marines for about a year now, I finished collecting my core 2000 points a couple months ago and now I am only purchasing the occasional model(s) to try new things in the army. I have never fielded the Landspeeder, in any variety, and wanted to know what the people here at the boards think of them. I love the look of the models and a squadron of the little buggers would be fun to have. So what works and what doesn't for the skimmers of the Imperium? What tactics and such work the best?

What you want is Tornadoes with the Assault Cannon and Heavy Bolter. Fly around and do everything from destroy tanks to slaughter infantry. These things butcher Genestealers and lighter fare, but they'll also put a decent hurting on Marines. Of course, they also excel at vehicle hunting, thanks to the AssCannon and their excellent mobility. If something is out of the way, like a Basilisk or indirect firing Defiler, one of these babies can go seek it out if you don't have a dropping termie squad. They're also great at taking table quarters on turn 6 with their 24" move.

Don't bother deep striking them, as the new SM FAQ "clarifies" that they count as moving over 12."

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/02/2006 7:31 PM
Don't bother deep striking them, as the new SM FAQ "clarifies" that they count as moving over 12."

I read about that among some Marine players, seems that some people were not too pleased to see that rule go into effect.

You field them in squads of one or three squads of 3.

A single heavy bolter speeder is worth the points. Singleton tornados ar OK too.

3 x 3 tornado speeders goes ok in a lot of army types. Best for DA really though since they get jink for free. cheer.

Posted By Wildonion on 10/02/2006 7:33 PM

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/02/2006 7:31 PM
Don't bother deep striking them, as the new SM FAQ "clarifies" that they count as moving over 12."

I read about that among some Marine players, seems that some people were not too pleased to see that rule go into effect.

Because it doesn't make any sense.

Infantry moving on the ground, not a stable platform. (I.e., can't fire heavies)
Vehicles moving out of the ground, stable platform.

Drop the same vehicle from the sky?  Suddenly not a stable firing platform.

Didn't they take Physics 101?  Bigger things don't fall faster GW.

Considering they're a flying vehicle dropping from on high and pulling out in time to avoid plowing into the ground, I'd say it makes sense that the crew is less focused on shooting and more on hanging on for dear life.

Also, by the game scale, the upper atmosphere is more than 12" movement...

I thought about what I have been hearing on this and several other boards and I think I have an idea of what might work. What if I took two Speeders with HB/AC and one Speeder with a MultiMelta; that would let me mow down troops and also pop the occasional vehicle that comes into range.

My one concern is that I loose a mess of shots by switching that one speeder's weapon load out and that the ACs already have rending, though I can't rely on that to kill a vehicle. What do you all think?

I think a Marine army has better, less fragile anti-tank units than a Land Speeder with multimelta. Also, whenever you shoot it at a tank, you waste the heavy bolters (at the least). Better to monotask them, IMO.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 10/02/2006 9:14 PM
I think a Marine army has better, less fragile anti-tank units than a Land Speeder with multimelta. Also, whenever you shoot it at a tank, you waste the heavy bolters (at the least). Better to monotask them, IMO.

Yes, if you shoot at vehicles you do waste the heavy bolter, but, again, sometimes you don't have another to get there and take out the vehicle in question.

Sutekh, are you suggesting that the Multi-Melta version is worth using?

Sometimes, yes, but it's been a long time since I used one myself. It's kind of like a self-guiding hunter-killer; it can lurk until it gets close enough, jump out and blast a tank, and most likely die immediately after. Better hope that you rolled well on the chart. They need to run in groups of 2 or more, to insure against a bad roll or two. Even so, it's a lot of points for a fragile unit, though it's the best platform for a multimelta in the game IMO. I don't see it as good enough to give up a potential assault cannon.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 10/02/2006 10:28 PM

I don't see it as good enough to give up a potential assault cannon.

And there's the verdict.  Thank you again, GW, for making a weapon that truly does everything.

Would be nice to finally have something in my army with an Assault Cannon again, since I stopped fielding my Dreadnought I took some flak (from friends of course) for being the only marines in the Imperium who did not use an Assault Cannon.

I noticed no one said anything about the Typhoon.

Not that they're a perfect replacement to either the regular Land Speeder by any means, but they are a great mix, just like the Tornado.

With an HB, it does better at killing infantry than a regular speeder, and has better range than a Typhoon, and with a Multi-Melta, it can pop tanks better than a single Tornado and is still able to drop enemy infantry. That said, it is not as good at killing troops as a HB + AC Tornado, nor is it as cost effective as a simple HB Land Speeder. It's more of a jack of all trades, master of none.

I field a pair of MM LST's in my 2500 point army. They're nice because they allow me to free up my BT H2H squads to focuse strictly on CC, while the LST's zoom around popping armor. They work great.

CK

Tornado is just so much better and more versitile then Typhoon, for a similar points cost.

Assault Cannons kill light infantry, terminators, and vehicles. Multi-meltas kill vehicles. Typhoons hopefully will kill a gaunt or two or something like that. I'm not a fan of the jack-of-all-trades style - I prefer dedicated units that have a distinct plan in batttle, and carry that plan out to completion.

Personally, I think if you want tank hunting Land Speeders, go with basic ones with Multi-meltas. Cheap, effective one-shot vehicles that take down almost any armor. Try and spread them out between your FA slots if possible.

If you run the assault cannon version, you have to remember how damned fragile it is, they tend to be one hit wonders. if you go tank hunting with it, as other have suggested, take two to increse the odds of rending, beaucse if you dont pop the tank, kiss the speeders good bye.

I find that if you only take one, take the HB speeder. Hide him and swoop on an objective last turn. The little guy will win you games time afer time and i have found to be well worth the 50 points.

Land Speeders really aren't that fragile. Move 12" a turn and you've got only glancing hits allowed, which helps a lot. Stay out of LOS of the big heavy weapons in the other guy's army, and pick apart his more dangerous CC units with the Land Speeders.

This said, my opinion of Land Speeder survivability is inflated, because my army gets Ravenwing Speeders, home of the invulnerable save.

I run 2 of the AC/HB speeders and a third multimelta one. I had the extra points left over, so I slapped a heavy flamer on the multi-melta speeder. I even stuck it on with a magnet because I planned to pull it off as soon as I found a better use for the points.

I know it flies in the face of all theory about mixing weapons and roles, but every time I take the flamer off, I regret it. It's just so darned killy and versatile. If the opponent sees a multimelta flamer lurking around out there, he knows it's coming after the tank. But if it also has a heavy flamer on it, he actually then isn't sure if maybe it's coming after his well-concealed countercharge unit, or that minsized shooty sqad in cover, or maybe it is the tank.

here is the problem, they are said to be dropped by low flying thunderhawks. GW clasifies fliers as flying high to be at a 12" rannge penalty from the ground. the new rule violates the previously stated rule about how far they move when dropped since it should only be 12" . it is a double standard and that why people who previously DS land speeders were upset with the new rule, not that it matters for ravenwing though since we never could DS our speeders.

 

 

on the note of running speeders-like anything else1 is a big juicy target. either run multiple squads of 1 or multiples in each squad. remember that even lowly bolters can hurt them so if you hit something you need to whipe it out or make it run. 21 shots from 3 speeders has a tendancy to do that. even more so with ravenwing speeders. >

Posted By lord_sutekh on 10/02/2006 8:37 PM

Considering they're a flying vehicle dropping from on high and pulling out in time to avoid plowing into the ground, I'd say it makes sense that the crew is less focused on shooting and more on hanging on for dear life.

Also, by the game scale, the upper atmosphere is more than 12" movement...

As opposed to infantry being shot at the ground from orbit? (Drop Pods)

Or infantry dropping from fast moving bombers while trying to make sure their grav chute keeps them in formation and gets them on target.  Certainly they must be more focused on landing then on shooting.

Anyways, I would ditch the MM in favor of another tornado.   You are trading slightly increased vehicle killy power for vastly increased killy everything else power.

Posted By Longshot on 10/02/2006 8:08 PM
You field them in squads of one or three squads of 3.

Personally, I field mine in a squadron of 2.

Two speeders are hard to down in one turn of shooting, and if they down one, you can play victory point denial.  The squadron isn't worth any points until they kill both.  The single speeder is still a scoring unit and worth no points to the opponent.

I learned how well this worked with Daemonhunters, as they can only take a single squadron.  I've been using them like this in my Marine list also now.  90% of the time, the dual speeders are better than two singles.   Even when I operate them in singles, they operate in tandaem, as anything one speeder would shoot at, two shooting at usually works better.

Actually, it's worth half the squadron's points, skyth. Reread the VP rules for squadrons.

Posted By Epistolary Velict on 10/03/2006 7:24 AM

Assault Cannons kill light infantry, terminators, and vehicles. Multi-meltas kill vehicles. Typhoons hopefully will kill a gaunt or two or something like that.

Not so fast. Let's not write off the Typhoon until we see what it is capable of.

In a six turn game:

Tornado: 13.583 dead MEQ per 6-turn game
18 HB shots = 5.333 Dead MEQ
24 AC shots = 8.25 Dead MEQ (I took into account the fact that 4.25 of the 18 hits will rend, thereby giving autokills)

Typhoon: 7.704 dead MEQ per 6-turn game
18 HB shots = 5.333 Dead MEQ
6 TML shots = 2.37 Dead MEQ (Twin-Linked Weapon, Assumed that the small blast marker hits 2 models on average)

As you can see, the Tornado seems like the best choice. While it still may be the better unit overall, I can defend the Typhoon by saying that it is not as bad as people think.

In order for the Tornado to fire at full effect, it must be no more than 24" from its target. This is unfortunate, since this places in range of almost every standard gun in the game, with the exception of Eldar Shuriken Catapults, DE Splinter Rifles, and Lasguns, which are too weak to kill AV 10. The Tornado becomes a target for everything, pretty much. While it can move 12" and benefit from glancing-only hits, it will still die a third of the time a glancing hit inflicted.

A Typhoon's effective range with an HB is 36", placing it ouside the range of every standard weapon in the game. Even the Tau's long reach cannot challenge it. So, while it is only killing a little more than half of what the Tornado can, it is staying out of range of all but anti-tank weapons and the like. This gives it the advantage of survivability.

So, while a Tornado might get one or two useful turns, blowing up a tank or rendering a certain squad useless, a Typhoon can be played as a true support platform for the entire game, picking apart enemy troops as they advance while remaining out of range. This way, you deny your opponent the VPs of killing an 80 point suicide attack unit and keep 70 points of table-claiming infantry killing power on the board (The Typhoon is also much better at killing lighter units, or GEQs, than it is at killing MEQ, thereby leveling the playing field with the Tornado when fighting horde armies). I can't begin to explain how relieving it is to know that you have a 24"-move capable unit to grab a quarter in the last turn of the game, whereas a Typhoon is most likely dead.

All I'm trying to say is that, while the Tornado is more effective, you can really get more bang for your buck with a Typhoon if you play them right. They're great support units, as I have said multiple times, and when equipped to tank-hunt with a MM, are able to at least go after light units in the meantime with their Twin-Linked Typhoon ML. A Tornado only has a Heavy Flamethrower to deal with infantry when equipped with a MM.

If you like up close and personal, and don't mind your Land Speeder dying in turn 2, then take an AC+HB Tornado. If you're a tactically minded person, disdain losing units, and would like to get 6 turns out of an infantry killing unit that can save you the game in the last turn, take an HB Typhoon. If you want tank-hunting power, either 2 AC+HB Tornadoes or a pair of MM Typhoons will do the trick.

CK

Posted By lord_sutekh on 10/03/2006 1:16 PM
Actually, it's worth half the squadron's points, skyth. Reread the VP rules for squadrons.

Vehicle Squadron-At least 50% mobile, Scoring Yes, VP none

That's what my book says at least.

1 left out of 2 speeders means 50% are mobile, thus still scoring and 0 points.

Posted By Corpsman_of_Krieg on 10/03/2006 3:03 PM


If you like up close and personal, and don't mind your Land Speeder dying in turn 2, then take an AC+HB Tornado. If you're a tactically minded person, disdain losing units, and would like to get 6 turns out of an infantry killing unit that can save you the game in the last turn, take an HB Typhoon. If you want tank-hunting power, either 2 AC+HB Tornadoes or a pair of MM Typhoons will do the trick.

CK

Alternatively, if you are a tactically minded person, disdain losing units and would like to get 6 turns out of an infantry killing unit that can also kill tanks, heavy infantry and monstrous creatures, use your tactical mind to keep your tornados alive to score at the end of the game.
Other people are doing it fine.

However, if you want to ignore the math, and your tactics are not good enough to protect your Tornados or only lose them when the gain is worth it, take Typhoons.  They are easier to keep alive while not doing much.

That is your opinion - your preference. Yes, people can do the same with Typhoons and let them survive, but they are a shorter-ranged vehicle, and are therefore more likely to come under enemy fire, explained by their 24" effective range. Typhoons don't get you all tugging at your collar about whether they'll survive another turn as often as Tornadoes do. All I'm saying is that SM players can get a slightly cheaper unit that is somewhat less effective and not have to worry about it every turn when it gets in bolter range. It's peace of mind I'm talking about.

Just so y'all know I'm not totally insane, I agree when you say that Tornadoes are better. They can do everything a Typhoon can do, only at a shorter range and for 10 extra points. I just don't want everyone to rule out the Typhoon as being completely ineffective.

CK

Damn, that's what I get for relying on my aging memory...

Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 10/02/2006 8:18 PM

Posted By Wildonion on 10/02/2006 7:33 PM

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/02/2006 7:31 PM
Don't bother deep striking them, as the new SM FAQ "clarifies" that they count as moving over 12."

I read about that among some Marine players, seems that some people were not too pleased to see that rule go into effect.

Because it doesn't make any sense.

Infantry moving on the ground, not a stable platform. (I.e., can't fire heavies)
Vehicles moving out of the ground, stable platform.

Drop the same vehicle from the sky?  Suddenly not a stable firing platform.

Didn't they take Physics 101?  Bigger things don't fall faster GW.

Youre missing the trees for the woods.
Moving more tha 12" has absolutly nothing to do with moving faster. It has to do with moving further.

I am sure physics in GW land are quite dumb, but this is one point I can agree with. That landspeeders that deepstrike count as having moved more than 24". They are falling out of the sky afterall. Rules wise, theyre already a very powerful unit, so some finesse is now needed when using them, not just drop, shoot, and laugh.

Yeah, your right. Let me know when Pod droppers and guard Deepstriking lists stop shooting because of how far they had to drop.

I see it as the drop pod being a more controlled landing, jets slowing it before landing on the battlefield, and the troops fire on their way out the doors. The Speeders are dropping out the back of a flier and have to control their own decent, meaning that more attention has to be spent on the flying because a marine is doing the work and not a guidance system. Then again the gunner is not a copilot for all I know, so maybe he is just disoriented from the drop.

So what, the one that is dropped out of a flier, has a driver specifically focusing on keeping it steady, using anti-gravity technology and also has comprehensive targetting technology and guidance systems, indeed more comprehensive due to the need to direct the descent, as opposed to just targetting it, causes a rougher landing then the one that is literally shot into the ground and slowed down enough to not kill the inhabitants?

Sorry, I don't buy it.
And that doesn't even begin to address the issue of IG drop troopers. Who lack all of the above and still manage to be able to shoot on landing.