Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Them losing heavy weapons.mortar is not a good idea, many infantry units have special/heavy weapon options, guard should not be any different.

Teams, not just losing them period.

Of course I'm also a huge stickler for Guard and AdMech getting access to Rapier and Tarantulas as part of their armies somehow.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Them losing heavy weapons.mortar is not a good idea, many infantry units have special/heavy weapon options, guard should not be any different.

Teams, not just losing them period.

Of course I'm also a huge stickler for Guard and AdMech getting access to Rapier and Tarantulas as part of their armies somehow.

Guard get Tarantulas I thought?

Honestly just make Infantry squads 45 points total, move Vets to the Troop slot again, and Conscripts can start at 3.5 points for the starting squad and adding more is 3 points a model.

And up the costs on their tanks. IG equipment is way too cheap per wound fielded on the table. Very difficult to engage even with the right weapons, because you just don't have enough shots. BS4 isn't a good enough excuse to have their stuff be so damn cheap.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Them losing heavy weapons.mortar is not a good idea, many infantry units have special/heavy weapon options, guard should not be any different.

Teams, not just losing them period.

Of course I'm also a huge stickler for Guard and AdMech getting access to Rapier and Tarantulas as part of their armies somehow.

Guard get Tarantulas I thought?

Honestly just make Infantry squads 45 points total, move Vets to the Troop slot again, and Conscripts can start at 3.5 points for the starting squad and adding more is 3 points a model.

They do, but they're a FW piece--I'd rather see a kit from GW proper with a bit more flexibility in weapon options.
Autocannons, Multilasers, Heavy Bolters, Meltaguns, hell even Plasma Guns.

Make them a kinda/sorta cheapish unit with the Auxilia keyword that gets placed but then has to prioritize certain enemy types over others and can't fight in CC--I could see that adding a bit of an interesting dynamic to Guard lists.

I've souped in Russes and I'm never using a marine tank ever again. It's just stupid. Marines don't have a weapon that can hold the jock strap of the battle cannon. Especially for the absurdly low price. Marines pay more for a single shot multimelta.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Them losing heavy weapons.mortar is not a good idea, many infantry units have special/heavy weapon options, guard should not be any different.

Teams, not just losing them period.

Of course I'm also a huge stickler for Guard and AdMech getting access to Rapier and Tarantulas as part of their armies somehow.

Guard get Tarantulas I thought?

Honestly just make Infantry squads 45 points total, move Vets to the Troop slot again, and Conscripts can start at 3.5 points for the starting squad and adding more is 3 points a model.

They do, but they're a FW piece--I'd rather see a kit from GW proper with a bit more flexibility in weapon options.
Autocannons, Multilasers, Heavy Bolters, Meltaguns, hell even Plasma Guns.

Make them a kinda/sorta cheapish unit with the Auxilia keyword that gets placed but then has to prioritize certain enemy types over others and can't fight in CC--I could see that adding a bit of an interesting dynamic to Guard lists.

I'd be down for Multilasers and Autocannons as options.

I think from a purely mathematical perspective guardsmen make more sense at 5ppm than 4 ppm. Compare them to fire warriors at 7ppm and they are pretty damn near even, with fire warriors pulling ahead vs high T targets and having better range, and guardsmen being better in melee and being more flexible in general.

However, putting guardsmen at 5ppm makes them purely worse from a mathematical standpoint than skitarii rangers, kabalites, neophytes etc... and would be bad for guard unless those other factions were changed at the same time. Not only this, the change would be bad for mono-IG who are barely managing to hold their own against soup lists and mono-eldar/mono-DE lists with 4ppm chaff infantry acting as a crutch.

In addition to that, 5ppm guardsmen would not change the fact that they are taken so prevelantly in soup. It would increase the cost of a guard battalion by a measly 30 points and do nothing about the reason why guard are really taken in soup (CP regen).

That is pretty much what I have gotten from this thread.

 Marmatag wrote:
https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/9eb9prk3

Brandon runs a pure IG list, with a Shadowsword. This was also discussed and shared on facebook.

Here's another one from June:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Brenden-Chrustie-1st-Overall-Plains-of-War-GT-2018.pdf

Can we pause for a moment and discuss how it's perfectly acceptable for guard players to say "mono IG aren't winning GTs" and they provide no evidence for this ridiculous claim, yet the burden of proof falls on me to counter what is obviously false?

And these are just first place finishings. Coming in 2nd or third in a 50+ person GT is actually really damn good, too.

Can you post a link to the list or a picture of the list for the Boise GT winner? I believe you, I just want to see the list.

WOW Brenden Chrustie's list has pretty much no anti-tank guns outside of his 3 battle cannons... he skewed hard anti-infantry and probably went up against horde lists. No wonder he won.

^Looks like Pask is in there with a Plasma Las kitted LR as well.

w1zard wrote:

However, putting guardsmen at 5ppm makes them purely worse from a mathematical standpoint than skitarii rangers, kabalites, neophytes etc... and would be bad for guard unless those other factions were changed at the same time.

Guardsmen, rangers and kabalites can all go up one point. Fire warriors are imo stuck between 7 and 8 pts, but I would not mind 8pt for them.

I disagree with your stance on guard vs neophytes. The only real tangible difference is a deployment option, which is the army special rule (like orders) and even that is variable and not guaranteed to work. Guard and neophytes can and should be the same price provided sarges get lasguns.
Consider for a second the relationship between Fire Warriors and Skitarii Rangers and see that they are the same price despite having much greater differences than the former 2 units.

Lastly, get rid of army wide -1 to hit, that should boost Guard's (and others") chances at winning a tournament.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Looks like Pask is in there with a Plasma Las kitted LR as well.

There are 4 russes.

One is pask with a lascannon and plasma sponsons.

Two are battlecannon russes.

One is a punisher russ.

His only anti-tank are three battlecannon russes, only one of which has a lascannon on it. That is entirely insufficient anti-tank for a 1,750 point TAC list. Like I said it has a heavy anti-infantry skew and probably got matched against horde lists the entire tournament because a knight list, or a list with even a single baneblade would crap all over it.

Dandelion wrote:
I disagree with your stance on guard vs neophytes. The only real tangible difference is a deployment option, which is the army special rule (like orders) and even that is variable and not guaranteed to work. Guard and neophytes can and should be the same price provided sarges get lasguns.

Neophytes have superior leadership to guardsmen. If guardsmen were 5 points neophytes would be guardsmen with +1L and better deployment options for the same price.

Dandelion wrote:
Guardsmen, rangers and kabalites can all go up one point. Fire warriors are imo stuck between 7 and 8 pts, but I would not mind 8pt for them.

Great, then we agree. Guardsmen can be 5 points when rangers, kabalites, and neophytes get nerfed or have price increases. Until that happens, all you are doing is hurting guard without really fixing anything. I think fire warriors can stay at 7 points, that seems fair for them.

Just make Infantry squads 45 points. Seriously. That's the only compromise you're gonna get without having to mess with Guard a lot and not have to adjust every other army.

w1zard wrote:

Neophytes have superior leadership to guardsmen. If guardsmen were 5 points neophytes would be guardsmen with +1L and better deployment options for the same price.

I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

In the grand scheme of things, guardsmen and neophytes are close enough to be the same point cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Just make Infantry squads 45 points. Seriously. That's the only compromise you're gonna get without having to mess with Guard a lot and not have to adjust every other army.

Mandatory voxes then?

Glad I stopped following this dumpster of a thread when I did. 10 pages later and still the same garbage flowing from the exact same people who don't even have yet a cursory understanding of competitive 40k. Carry on though, the good players will keep winning with this dex in your stead

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ah, but there's the thing you're missing:
Guard losing heavy weapon teams. Not access to heavy weapons period. We'd need some new heavy weapons to be added in though. Multilasers with a backpack ammo feed, heavy stubbers, stuff that could feasibly be put on one guy.

Perhaps we should have a specific guard wishlisting thread and leave this one to die a quiet, unmourned death...

(I would have many things to wish in - starting with having a cheap transport that wasn't worth more than its occupants!)

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Neophytes have superior leadership to guardsmen. If guardsmen were 5 points neophytes would be guardsmen with +1L and better deployment options for the same price.

I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

In the grand scheme of things, guardsmen and neophytes are close enough to be the same point cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Just make Infantry squads 45 points. Seriously. That's the only compromise you're gonna get without having to mess with Guard a lot and not have to adjust every other army.

Mandatory voxes then?

Mandatory voxes just extend guard order ranges without actually having any impact on the fact that it takes an inordinate amount of points to remove guardsmen, while they still have good for tgeir points damage output.
They take longer to kill and kill more than most comparible units making voxes mandatory won't change that.

Also on the topic of moral you need to kill 7 Guardsmen to guarantee moral ignoring that you can just using that unlimited CP to be able to auto pass.

Killing 7 and relying on moral still requires lot of shots of avarage rolling to remove a infanty squad in the open. It also can't be relied upon if you need that objective or scoring unit removed.

4.97 times their points cost in FW standing in the open, or 3.32 times in infantry squads
Put them in cover and its worse at 7 times thier points cost in FW to remove, or 4.43 in infantry squads.

That more durable than other infantry with better board control and better offence.

Additionally orders can improve thier durability, mobility, or offence making them even more rediculous.

w1zard wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Looks like Pask is in there with a Plasma Las kitted LR as well.

There are 4 russes.

One is pask with a lascannon and plasma sponsons.

Two are battlecannon russes.

One is a punisher russ.

His only anti-tank are three battlecannon russes, only one of which has a lascannon on it. That is entirely insufficient anti-tank for a 1,750 point TAC list. Like I said it has a heavy anti-infantry skew and probably got matched against horde lists the entire tournament because a knight list, or a list with even a single baneblade would crap all over it.

Dandelion wrote:
I disagree with your stance on guard vs neophytes. The only real tangible difference is a deployment option, which is the army special rule (like orders) and even that is variable and not guaranteed to work. Guard and neophytes can and should be the same price provided sarges get lasguns.

Neophytes have superior leadership to guardsmen. If guardsmen were 5 points neophytes would be guardsmen with +1L and better deployment options for the same price.

Dandelion wrote:
Guardsmen, rangers and kabalites can all go up one point. Fire warriors are imo stuck between 7 and 8 pts, but I would not mind 8pt for them.

Great, then we agree. Guardsmen can be 5 points when rangers, kabalites, and neophytes get nerfed or have price increases. Until that happens, all you are doing is hurting guard without really fixing anything. I think fire warriors can stay at 7 points, that seems fair for them.

A battle cannon (on a russ) is equivalent to like 3 lascannons at single targets - it about as good as 7 lascannons vs heavy infantry.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ah, but there's the thing you're missing:
Guard losing heavy weapon teams. Not access to heavy weapons period. We'd need some new heavy weapons to be added in though. Multilasers with a backpack ammo feed, heavy stubbers, stuff that could feasibly be put on one guy.

Perhaps we should have a specific guard wishlisting thread and leave this one to die a quiet, unmourned death...

(I would have many things to wish in - starting with having a cheap transport that wasn't worth more than its occupants!)

Oh and Flak should be a 6+ save...

Power Armour 3+
Carapace Armour 4+
Mesh Armour 5+
Flak 'armour?' 6+

The_Real_Chris wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ah, but there's the thing you're missing:
Guard losing heavy weapon teams. Not access to heavy weapons period. We'd need some new heavy weapons to be added in though. Multilasers with a backpack ammo feed, heavy stubbers, stuff that could feasibly be put on one guy.

Perhaps we should have a specific guard wishlisting thread and leave this one to die a quiet, unmourned death...

(I would have many things to wish in - starting with having a cheap transport that wasn't worth more than its occupants!)

Oh and Flak should be a 6+ save...

Power Armour 3+
Carapace Armour 4+
Mesh Armour 5+
Flak 'armour?' 6+

Then Mesh Armour should be a 6+.

Eldar mesh armor is like mithril armor in LOTR - it should honestly be as good as carapace. It should be flak/though hides 6+/ carapace and mesh 5+/ stuff like scout armor (light power armor) light aspect warrior armor (enchanced mesh) should be 4+. Power armor 3+.

Orks are actually getting a 6+ because their hide is tough.

Just speaking strictly from a fluff prospective here -
Tyranids are a perfectly evolved race breed for killing. They have chitnin armor plates over their face/chest/back. It is somewhat silly to me that chitnin armor is weaker than mass produced flak armor that a human can carry.

Mass produced flak armor > Perfectly evolved chitnin? That seems odd to me.

Mass produced flak armor > Eldar hand woven super fabric/ wraithbone? That is odd too.

Really IMO not having to do with rules here - the human is not pathetic enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ah, but there's the thing you're missing:
Guard losing heavy weapon teams. Not access to heavy weapons period. We'd need some new heavy weapons to be added in though. Multilasers with a backpack ammo feed, heavy stubbers, stuff that could feasibly be put on one guy.

Perhaps we should have a specific guard wishlisting thread and leave this one to die a quiet, unmourned death...

(I would have many things to wish in - starting with having a cheap transport that wasn't worth more than its occupants!)

Oh and Flak should be a 6+ save...

Power Armour 3+
Carapace Armour 4+
Mesh Armour 5+
Flak 'armour?' 6+

Then Mesh Armour should be a 6+.

Just to be fair here - don't you think eldar quality things should be better than human mass produced things?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Glad I stopped following this dumpster of a thread when I did. 10 pages later and still the same garbage flowing from the exact same people who don't even have yet a cursory understanding of competitive 40k. Carry on though, the good players will keep winning with this dex in your stead

I'm going to take a page out of your book. This thread is nonsense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Just to be fair here - don't you think eldar quality things should be better than human mass produced things?

Nope. Guardians aren't wearing the top tier, end all be all gear. They're wearing the most basic of stuff that is effectively an undersuit. If Flak is going to a 6+, so is Mesh--they've been linked for quite some time.

Flak armour covers everything from Cadians to Tanith. The only way to differentiate them will be actual different squads and rules for "Light" Infantry versus "Shock" Infantry, or giving Cadians Carapace instead of Flak.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Neophytes have superior leadership to guardsmen. If guardsmen were 5 points neophytes would be guardsmen with +1L and better deployment options for the same price.

I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

In the grand scheme of things, guardsmen and neophytes are close enough to be the same point cost.

Disagree. The Cult Ambush rule is also able to be backed up by the stratagem from CA2017 allowing you to 'reset' the units into Cult Ambush.

Orders also are a very different beast to Cult Ambush IMO. The Auras that the individual characters give is that equivalent, Cult Ambush is a bit of an oddity at this point in time since most Troops choices don't have something like this anymore.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar mesh armor is like mithril armor in LOTR - it should honestly be as good as carapace. It should be flak/though hides 6+/ carapace and mesh 5+/ stuff like scout armor (light power armor) light aspect warrior armor (enchanced mesh) should be 4+. Power armor 3+.

Orks are actually getting a 6+ because their hide is tough.

Just speaking strictly from a fluff prospective here -
Tyranids are a perfectly evolved race breed for killing. They have chitnin armor plates over their face/chest/back. It is somewhat silly to me that chitnin armor is weaker than mass produced flak armor that a human can carry.

Mass produced flak armor > Perfectly evolved chitnin? That seems odd to me.

Mass produced flak armor > Eldar hand woven super fabric/ wraithbone? That is odd too.

Really IMO not having to do with rules here - the human is not pathetic enough.

This mindset is why we get absurdly ovepowered Eldar books literally every edition


Eldar mesh armor has never been portrayed as particularly fantastically protective armor, rather it's thing has always been that it is light weight and flexible relative to its level of protection.

Chitin armor plates may be perfectly evolved, but that evolution depends on what its needed for, and on Gaunts it's not much given their disposable nature to the Hive Mind. With respect to the real world, despite billions of years of evolution, there's not much in the way of natural armor that will protect against a rifle bullet, mass produced level 3 body armor certainly will however.

Vak,
Would you find this statement accurate:
"Eldar mesh armor has been portrayed as particularly fantastically protective armor *for* its light weight and flexible. Not in absolute terms."
?
I think its the same concept, but more technically correct.

According to a lot of fluff, IG are actually well-provisioned, normally. Their weapons and kit are top-notch for human-grade kit. It's just that every faction on the tabletop is super-something. IG training and gear are a level above most PDFs or independent factions.

So Flakk armor is good armor. But Boltguns are amazing guns. Gauss is absurdly powerful. Shuriken and Splinter are unimaginable terrors. And soforth. So it's natural for Mesh to be in the same class protection-wise.

If I were physically with you in a room, I'd faux-slap you for putting boltgun and amazing in the same sentence.

Once upon a time, flak was 6+ ordinarily, but 5+ against blast templates. Now we don't have those anymore, you can't really go back, but that would have made more sense. Flak being better against, well, Flak, than against small arms fire kinda makes sense. But at a flat 5+ it does seem a bit too good for the standard human infantryman honestly; maybe 5+ only against random shot weapons (which are mostly all formerly blast weapons), and 6+ normally would be a compromise.

I agree with some of the suggestions earlier about conscripts, making them Auxilia and not regiment, so they cannot get orders at all, and having a 6+ flat save is fair for their old price.
The Orders things I'd also completely redo, with a proper command hierarchy, including even making it so infantry squads are much less effective if there's no Officer nearby to command them (making Paltoon Commanders actually useful, and bring back Platoons!)
Troopers could go up to 5ppm, but transports would have to come down, as would some things like vox casters.

But that's just me I suppose.

Martel,
What's not amazing about a fully-auto weapon where each bullet is a *rocket*? That hits unarmored targets as hard as disintigrating robot-space-alien rayguns? That hits unarmored targets as hard as a full spray of super-space-elf needle-guns?

Now, it doesn't pay off in-game. But it is amazing.

Bharring wrote:
Martel,
What's not amazing about a fully-auto weapon where each bullet is a *rocket*? That hits unarmored targets as hard as disintigrating robot-space-alien rayguns? That hits unarmored targets as hard as a full spray of super-space-elf needle-guns?

Now, it doesn't pay off in-game. But it is amazing.

S4 AP0. That's what is not amazing. Crunch trump fluff, always. Because that's what I have to play with. I didn't even read the text of my 7th ed codex, because it doesn't matter.

Well, it's not amazing compared to super space-elf ninja-samurais. Or lovecraftian horrors in space. Or damn robot space aliens. Or soccor hooligans on steroids in space. ...

But when shooting at a super-soldier or indestructable robot alien, it's 50% more likely to actually do damage than a top-of-the-line well-maintained human military rifle (Lasgun).

I suppose "Amazing" in crunch terms means "OP" or "auto-include" - neither of which inspire me. I don't consider Alaitoc Hemlocks "amazing" just because they're OP.

Well, they are.

Again, I don't care about the fluff at all. It doesn't get the job done on a 13 point model, and so it sucks to me.

The change to the wound table really hurt the Marine value of "Human +1" in a lot of ways. It makes being +1 super-awesome-shooting have much less impact on shooting +X super-durable stuff.