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This is the plan for this year's tournament army - it's based around a half company.
I'm looking for advice/ feedback - how would you improve it/beat it?


Captain (3w)
jump pack, terminator honours, lightning claws, meltabombs, frag 146pts.

Chaplain (2w)
death company, the grail, meltabombs, bolt pistol, jump pack  246pts

5 marines, las, plas 100pts
5 marines, las , vs    105pts
5 marines, las, plas  100pts
5 marines, las, vs     105pts
5 marines, las, plas  100pts
5 marines, las, vs      105pts

2 attack bikes 100pts
2 attack bikes 100pts
ls Typhoon       70pts

5 devastators, 2 heavy bolters 105pts
5 devastators, 2 heavy bolters 105pts

total 1487 points.

I want to stay within the 30, 10, 10 distribution but would like to find more points for extra heavy bolters for the devastators, plasma for the squads and gear for the captain.
also the DC chaplain is so many points that I don't ever put him in combat since he either a) robs a bunch of DC guys of their attacks (by killing those in base with them) or b) takes a 130point wound!

I also really want to work infiltrate in, maybe switch a tac squad out for scouts (and pretend they're specialists or some such.

I would love to take a whirlwind for indirect fire.

I'm thinking of using the spare points to put the captain on a bike rather than a jump pack.

This army has been doing well (3 big wins, 1 small win) but then so did last years balanced ultramarines (librarian, preds, ww etc) which were far more of a surgical tool rather than a hammer.

The static marines are ok and pop tanks/'zillas etc no worries but its always the death company providing mobility and threat. If I get escalation I use them as a countercharge squad, otherwise pretty much just run up the centre of the board until they get close enough to maul something.

James

I forsee doom in your future. And it on your head.

Small squads are easily wiped out or reduced to under half.  You're handing your opponent points and making it very difficult on  yourself to control table quarters.  Doubly so with no transports- your focus is on shooting not moving.  All your mobile forces have a small  unit size and can be instant killed or has AR10. You count of your DC taking anything because they're going to be front line assault. 

What will you do with your vet sgts if they don't fall to the DC? You've spent 15pts for an extra attack that will more than likely be wasted since you're shooting at long range. No power weapon or fist to make them scary.  45 pts could be better spent.

One big DC isn't going to win the game.  It's nice, but there is nothing to back it up.  No "2nd wave" of HTH to get it out of trouble when the couter charge(s) hit home.

If I had this army, I would pray that the enemy had no cover to  hid behind. Otherwise, if they can close off fields of fire, I would have only 1 unit to stop them, and that would be IF I had not already committed that unit to an assault.

What do you plan to do against armies that have indirect fire?  Against a strong demon bomb army that can get into grips with you 2nd turn? Against Emperor's children champs/lords with Doom Siren?  Extremely mobile armies?  Or any assault army that can fleet?

Suggestion: Scouts are excellent for that extra HTH punch and play strong in our BA lists. So do assault marines.  Drop the D-squads and take Tornados.  HB +AsC = good times. Assault troops are worth more than our shooty troops. Lastly, fill out your your troop units and give them a transport so they can rush up and rapid fire.  In 4th ed, BA went from strictly assaulters to close firefight followed by assault.  Use both threngths.

I would beat this army by using terrain and pop smoke to move my troops through your arcs of fire or avoid them all together.  Concentrating firepower on one or two units at a time to make them useless.  Small unit sizes make it easy to get Fire Superiority and kill off the lazcannons. Combined fire will take down the advancing DC to a reasonable level allowing me to hit them with mulitple waves of assaulters.

Thanks for the comments.

With multiple small units theres a good chance that they will 'rage. I use the rage and the normal movement to take the small squads into better positions. I have played two recons and had multiple tac squads in the opponents deployment zone both times.

I don't like the idea of tying up 250pts in a rhino squad - one shot will screw your game. With multiple units you have more firepower and redundancy if they rage or get pinned etc.

The VS are essential because the DC needs powerfists. 3 is a minimum to ensure at least one fist. otherwise the DC can gety munched by dreadnoughts etc. If I had the points I'd give them combiweapons, but 5 marines is never going to be a combat squad - in an eight/ten man squad I'd have a powerfist.

Indirect fire will be a problem, I need to convince one of the IW players to roll the tanks out. In GT play there generally isn't that much scenery though - I have enough squads to be able to create a lot of angles. With smaller units its easier to space out the individuals so that an ordnance weapon will only hit a couple IF it hits. I've always found ordnance to be unreliable. Against spaced out marines in cover you aren't gonna kill the lascannon with ordnance alone. The small squads are cheap too - IW are great at taking lots of VPS from big marine squads, but having more scoring units is better IMO.

Daemon bombs are also tricky, but the beauty with small squads is that they're hard not to kill in one round, meaning that any dangerous assaulters can be shot, The DC on the other hand have the grail enabling them to bounce around the battlefield.

The commander on a bike is the second mobile assault unit. he can bust upfield with the bikes and they can charge one unit after shooting it while he splits off and kills another (avoiding powerfists obviously). he can also be held back as a countercharge unit.

the DC isn't that easy to kill!

The attack bikes are great - they tend to play it safe and turbo where there is a threat

Thanks for your imput - I will definately try and play against some filthy chaos players!

J

I hate to say it, but DC are easy to kill. I play BA as my main army (since 93) and any good opponent can take them down if they know what they're doing. I've been on the recieving end of that too many time and have learned many a lession. ^_____^;

I wouldn't call raging a good thing most of this army. Your tac are your fire support: One less shot a turn hurts your plan. IW do well with small squads due to high BS and no BR. Because of the Rage you can't equate the two.

If you want to add punch to your DC give your Chappy a Thunder Hammer. Lots of attacks, Re-rolls, and invulnerable save. Your DC will be able to dish out enough punches to knock things for a loop if need be. Your commander needs an Iron Halo if he wants to live to see old age.

250 isn't a bad amount to put into a squad. I've got 2 tacs that run in rhinos at about 279 each and it takes A LOT of fire power to bring them down. Push forward, smoke, push forward use them as shields. Combined assualt, and it's good. You can't be afraid of losing your rhinos, as it usually happens. But if you can extend their life to turn 3 they've already done their job.

As for terrain, there should be 6 pieces of terrain on the board. If you can handle that then your good.

I played the 04 GT final with ultramarines. In retrospect it was a terrible army - 2 rhino squads and war veterans in a rhino (all with powerfists), vindicator, whirlwind, tornado assasult cannon, tornao melta, tigurius, scouts, dreadnought. The rhino squads got their rhinos shot and spent the game entangled half way alongf the board. I got annihilated by a daemon bomb and an Iron warriors player, but still managed to finish 49/150.

This army changed for the student nationals 05 (second place) and 06 (first place, six massacres)
librarian with fear and fury on a bike, 2*2 attack bikes, 2 pred lc/hb, whirlwind, 2 tornado asscan, dreadnought LC, 2* 8 scouts, HB, powerfist, 2 *5 tac with lascannon.

I already have that rounded tournament army and I've been narrowly beaten once (by deathwing) and won prabably 100+ games. I don't really want to recreate an army I already have, since I'm not sure BA are as good as Ultramarines at the whole balanced mobile firepower thing (although baal predators are cool). If I wanted to do that, I'd be better off dropping the chaplain altogether and having a small death company of 5-6 guys. That would free up 250 points for cool stuff. But 12 death company is just so damn mean!

I like the idea of big tac squads for closing with the enemy - but why not use drop pods instead of rhinos? 35 points cheaper and you know they're gonna get you there! The problem with big tac squads is that they are easy points for daemons, daemon princes, archites, etc. a powerfist stops librarians charging you alone but thats about it. Combine that with the fact that BA don't get cleanse and purify and you've got to ask yourself why you would be playing like that. Drop podding works better for space wolves and cleanse and purify, possible templars. If you get out of a rhino, or a pod, odds are you won't be using your furious charge. Not to mention getting annihilated by ordnance on the way in...... shudder....

What I'm trying to do (so far successfully) with the tac squads is provide a good fire support base (which could be done with predators etc) but also give myself a large DC. When I play I use the Rage to my advantage - moving towards objectives etc. bear mind that rage ignores terrain, so rage + normal move tends to equate to about two turns of normal movement. Fair enough I can't control when it happens, but thats why I have the redundancy of 6 squads. Rage in that sense can allow me extra turns of shooting since instead of having to move twice I only have to move once to cover the same ground.

BUT! this army has only played 5-6 times, and fair enough, winning all those games doesn't necessarily prove anything. I am trying to find more top tournament level opponents in Edinburgh, so far I've only played tourney tau (3 railheads, crisis, kroot) and tourney marines (cleanse and purify, drop pods) and a couple of people who are headed to heat 1. I need to play chaos....

The reason I want to take the BA instead of the Ultramarines is that a) I've already won a tournament with the Ultramarines and played a shedload of games with them. b) wolf scouts, hammerheads, d/s obliterators/pods etc all thrive on blowing up expensive predators/dreadnoughts etc. but aren't as good against tac squads in cover
c) the death company will probably be neutered as soon as the next codex:BA comes out
d) since no eldar craftworlds are allowed, there will be less (or less effective) starcannon hordes of doom
e) this army rocks in escalation - iron warriors and tourny tau aren't as good.
f) I love shiny red marines.


This doesn't mean I don't want to tweak it - maybe find points to amalgamate both devvy squads and take a whirlwind (as long as its an 8 man dev squad so its still an exact half company), find points for more plasma/heavy bolters, maybe replace a tac squad with scouts etc. But it's more tweaks I'm looking for than wholesale change. I would consider a tac squad in a drop pod.

Thanks moopy!

J

Yea, was weighing the advantages of drop pods and I've got real mixed feelings about them. First off, I don't like being at the mercy of the dice, and if you roll poorly for your reserve rolls, then your army comes in piece meal. That's death since the enemy can concentrate it's fire power on a select few units. Also, I don't like handing points to my opponent. Not to mention the fact you hand half their value to the enemy as soon as you show up. Bad. Lastly, you want to get close to rapid fire your weapons, which unfortunately, is also charge range. This almost guarantees you not getting the charge. I DO find it an excellent way to get your Furis where they need to be, but then again, they need to be supported and it's hard to do that on a dice roll.

You are also right on not to dump too many points in one unit.

Personally I wish the DC was allowed to buy hth weapons. Pw, PF, LC and the like. 1 per 4 or 5 members in the unit. Then that would get rid of a lot of bad feelings for the DC and keep our Vetrans alive to lead the chapter!

Think about how this army would deal with Lots of swarms. Large units of guants, backed by units of stealers. This army loves vehicles or big critters. Feral orks, walking SW or lots of small bugs will lend it's own problems.

You've got a lot of good ideas, so I would be interested in seeing what V.2 looks like

Yeh I don't like 'pods for the same reason. I reckon you need 6-7 pods in an army before you get 'critical mass'  i.e at least three pods on turn 2 followed by at least 2 pods on turn 3. 1-2 squads of marines are easy to kill/avoid when they drop, but more is increasingly difficult.

I've got the two devastator squads, 2 attack bikes squads and the speeder to give me 9 heavy  bolters, 30+ bolters, typhoon missile, 6*las, 3*plas, plus the death company will murder a big unit on the charge (and more to the point, suck in troops like noones business...)The idea would be to shoot the rendy stuff and charge the crappy stuff. Orks on foot don't really stand a chance against a well played marine tourney army. Guard I'd charge as much of their line as poss with bikes and DC to block LoS and then shoot the remainder. the grail would bounce the DC into the next unit.

TBH there is talk of 'buying' death company in the next rulebook, which suits me fine. You spend 300+ poins on a chaplain +sergeants anyway. If one wasn't compeeled to use a DC (currently there's no reason not to) then one could play BA far more like a regular marine army - more options etc.
Why do the sergeants go nuts so often? In the BA books deus girlyman etc the opposite is true (everyone is surprised when Sgt Koris gos nuts)

Will go sit on a horde, but still more worried about cheesy chaos...

J