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Well, this question came upp in the army list section but I thought I'd put it here so I can get a clear answer.

Can an independent character join a unit that is in reserves? (More specificly an Archon joining a squad of wyches in a raider waiting in the Webway)

Now, I've always thought that you can't make IC's join a unit before he's on the table, meaning you have to roll for the squad and the IC separately (so they may arrive on different turns) and since you have to "move the IC within 1"  " to allow him to join a unit, you aren't able to assault out of the transport, since he can't make two moves per turn.

Am I right or wrong? Where's the ruling on this? I'd love to be able to attach Archons, Dracons and Haemonculi to my squads in raiders... yummy!

This is from the 40K rulebook FAQ.

Note that for the IC to join the unit in Reserve, though, he still needs to have a rule that allows him to start in Reserve... otherwise he would have to be deployed at the start like normal.

So in answer to your question Cyne, you dice for the raider squads and the ICs seperately. If both the raider squad and the IC become available, they can enter play together. They could also travel 12", disembark, and assault that turn as well. The Web Way Portal's special rules allow ICs to be placed in reserve along with other units.

The converse to this is the durn Emperor's Champion, that can't be placed in reserve. So he can't join say a drop podding Crusader squad, unless the scenario gives special rules, such as in Escalation.

Escalation doesn't let the Emperor's Champion start in Reserve.

The Escalation rules allow only Infantry to be deployed, with all other units held in Reserve. No option is given to hold Infantry in Reserve... they are simply the only troop type you may deploy.

None of the Standard missions allow you to hold Infantry in Reserve unless the unit itself has a Special Rule that allows it.

The Emepror's Champion would only be able to start in Reserve in the Advanced missions in which HQs start in Reserve.

Sweet, so I was actually right for once. 

This was in reference to my DE WW army in an Escalation game vs the IG player who recommended it after he shot up my Lord. 

So basically if the IC is in reserve I state that I am putting him in the squad, so I will just roll for him as his own reserve if reserve rules are being used.  But, if none are being used, then he can just be in the squad via the portal?

Your Archon has the same problem as the Emperor's Champion... he doesn't have a rule that would allow him to be held in Reserve in a Standard mission.

However, if you are playing one of the missions where you COULD keep him in Reserve, as per the FAQ you don't actually put him with the unit until you have rolled for Reserves.

If both the unit and the IC come on in the same turn, you can deploy the IC with the unit.

Furthermore, Drop Podding is a special rule only allowed to those units that may take Drop Pods. The Emperor's Champion (or any marine IC on his own) doesn't have access to being deployed via Drop Pod and therefore he wouldn't be suddenly allowed to utilize that rule, just as an IC wouldn't be able to join a unit entering play via Deep Strike and suddenly gain the Deep Strike ability.

Actually, in this case the Archon does not have that problem insaniak. Cyne stated he is using a Web Way portal. The portal gives special rules to hold units such as the Archon in reserve even in standard missions. The Archon starts in reserve, and the raider starts in reserve. In accordance with the FAQ, if they both become available at the same time, they can travel on to the table together.

As far as my statement on the Emperor's Champion goes, it was contingent on two points which I may be wrong about.

The first, that an Emperor's champion could be placed in reserve during an escalation mission. The rule reads that only infantry "may be deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise. All units not deployed are in reserve and will arrive in accordance with the normal Reserve rules." The fact that it says 'may' means it is your decision whether or not to deploy any infantry unit. You have the option, but not an obligation. If you don't deploy, it becomes a unit "not deployed" and is held in reserve.

Beyond that, I think I see Yak's point that deploying by drop pod is a special rule. However, maybe you could answer for me a question so I can better understand your point. What is the difference between an EC in reserve joining a rhino squad in reserve, and an EC in reserve joining a drop pod squad in reserve? Is it because the Drop pod assault lists specific squads, and unless the unit is among those squads, it can't ever ride in a pod?

If that is the case, how is it an EC can ride in a rhino? He is not allowed that option in his list entry. What rule allows him (or any marine IC for that matter) to join a squad embarked on a rhino, but not join a squad embarked on a drop pod?

Just to be clear Yak, I'm inclined to believe you.  I'm just trying to get the points and the logic clear in my head.

thanks

Thank's Hellfury, that answered my question, AND it's in clear printing!

Doesn't seem like a bad idea to have the Archon attached to a squad of wyches, since the faq clearly states that I roll for all my units, THEN decide if the Archon should join anything. With 3 raiders, there's a big chance that at least one of them will be avaiable when the Archon enters. If none is, he can still move 6 "+1d6" + 12" out of the portal with combat drugs, so he isn't slow even without the transports.

Posted By Ebon on 10/24/2006 11:21 PM
Actually, in this case the Archon does not have that problem insaniak. Cyne stated he is using a Web Way portal. The portal gives special rules to hold units such as the Archon in reserve even in standard missions. The Archon starts in reserve, and the raider starts in reserve. In accordance with the FAQ, if they both become available at the same time, they can travel on to the table together.

As far as my statement on the Emperor's Champion goes, it was contingent on two points which I may be wrong about.

The first, that an Emperor's champion could be placed in reserve during an escalation mission. The rule reads that only infantry "may be deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise. All units not deployed are in reserve and will arrive in accordance with the normal Reserve rules." The fact that it says 'may' means it is your decision whether or not to deploy any infantry unit. You have the option, but not an obligation. If you don't deploy, it becomes a unit "not deployed" and is held in reserve.

Well, there was a lengthy and very technical argument discussed on this very subject a while back involving Flavius infernus (super-logic-grammar-man) in which he proved that argument false. I'm not going to even try to recreate his argument, and honestly I'm not too concerned whether he's actually right (although I'm sure he is) or wrong.

I personally haven't seen anyone play Escalation allowing infantry to start off the table and if the marine player wants to allow that interpretation it means his opponent is going to be able to keep his whole army off the table too. . .something that's not going to help the drop pod player out very much.




The basic concept is this: The FAQ answer states that you are allowed to combine units in a "legal way". The rules for deploying units on page 84 allows an IC to be placed into a vehicle instantly joining the unit inside. This is legally allowed. However, the character would not suddenly be able to gain abilities he didn't already have in order to perform this action.

For example, if somehow a unit in a transport had a special rule that allowed them to be deployed outside of the normal deployment zone (you're going to have to use your imagination here) before the character was deployed, when it came time to deploy said character while he is legally allowed to be deployed in that vehicle with that unit, since the vehicle/unit is outside of the deployment zone (outside of the character allowable parameters) he would not be able to join the unit.

The Drop Pod rules are special rules that allow the unit to be held in Reserve and deploy via Drop Pod. That is an all-in-one rule. Even though Escalation means the "nromal" Reserve rules are in effect a unit that was deploying via Drop Pod couldn't suddenly decide to walk on the board normally and let the Drop Pod fall on its own because the unit must specifically be held in Reserve for the purpose of using the Drop Pod (a different concept than a unit being normally held in Reserve).

So even though a character may be in Reserves and he may be arriving on the same turn as a Drop Podding unit he has not been held in Reserve to arrive by Drop Pod (he doesn't have that option in the rules).

Therefore he must arrive on the table normally, either by foot or by joining a unit/transport vehicle that is arriving normally.

Posted By Ebon on 10/24/2006 11:21 PM
The portal gives special rules to hold units such as the Archon in reserve even in standard missions.

So it does. It's been a while since I played DE, and I missed that part in the WWP entry when I skimmed through it.

So yes, the Archon is fine.


For the Emperor's Champion, the full statment that is relevant is that 'only Infantry may be deployed...'

In that statement, 'may' is granting permission, not providing a choice.

You have permission to deploy only Infantry. Everything else is held in Reserve. No option is given to hold Infantry in Reserve.

In a permissive ruleset, 'may' only provides a choice if more than one option is presented. If it said 'Infantry may be deployed or held in Reserve' then you have a choice.

It doesn't say that, and gives only one option for Infantry: They may be deployed, while everything ELSE is held in Reserve.

Choices given-Deploy or stay in reserve.

Huh?

Where in the Escalation rules does it say 'Infantry may be kept in Reserve'?

Quite simply, it doesn't.

I don't know Insaniak, I think the the phrase "may" would allow you to make a decision. In the body of American Jurisprudence the word May means that you are given a choice with regard to compliance with a certain rule/law. For example Churches that state you may not carry a loaded gun into church (this is from actual case law) means that it is entirely up to the discretion of a person with a concealed weapon permit whether or not they will carry a gun on themselves when entering a church. (of course all other laws must be obeyed with regard to guns in this example)

In the same light the word "shall" means that you have an obligation to comply with the rule. So in the church example if the church had a rule stating you SHALL not carry a loaded gun into a church, it means that no one is allowed to carry a weapon into the church regardless of other laws.

The difference from may and shall however is what the American legal system uses for such distinctions, however whether or not such interpretations apply to 40k is hardly concrete.

Although after looking up the word "May" in the dictionary you simply are "given permission" to commit such an act, not necessarily are you given a requirement to do such an act. So, you may or may not decide to deploy your infantry onto the board in an escalation rule as per the dictionary and legal jurisprudence.

"Although after looking up the word "May" in the dictionary you simply are "given permission" to commit such an act, not necessarily are you given a requirement to do such an act. "

Exactly. You are given permission to do something. That doesn't necessarily mean you are given an option to do something else instead.

Context is what matters here. The entry doesn't say 'Infantry may be deployed'... rather, it says 'ONLY infantry may be deployed'

Once again, in that context, 'may' is not providing a choice, it is granting permission to that one specific group. You have permission to deploy only infantry.

If it had said merely 'Infantry may be deployed' THEN it would be providing a choice, since the entry further down tells us what happens to units that are not deployed.

The 'only' is what makes all the difference to the statement.

But permission doesn't necessitate obligation. In other words Only the infantry are allowed to deploy in escalation, that does not mean that the player is obligated to deploy his infantry instead of reserving his infantry.

Example:
If I give you permission to drink my root beer (You may drink my root beer), that does not mean that you HAVE to drink my root beer, but that drinking my root beer will not incur any negative repercussions (like a rule violation).

Further If I state ONLY you may drink my root beer, that simply means only you have permission to drink my root beer. That does not mean that because I mentioned only you, you are forced to drink my root beer.  The permission to drink my root beer only applies to you, but doesn't force an obligation to drink my root beer.

"But permission doesn't necessitate obligation. In other words Only the infantry are allowed to deploy in escalation, that does not mean that the player is obligated to deploy his infantry instead of reserving his infantry."

It does if he is ordinarily obligated to deploy them.


That's the way the missions work. At the beginning of the game, you deploy all of your troops. You don't get a choice on that... unless the unit has a special rule that says otherwise, you MUST deploy all of your units.

Escalation changes that slightly, by stating that only infantry may be deployed.

So, the ordinary deployment process is altered, with only Infantry being able to be deployed, and all other units held in Reserve. You still don't have a choice to do anything else with Infantry, so they must be deployed as normal.

A choice with only one option will always result in the same option chosen.


"Further If I state ONLY you may drink my root beer, that simply means only you have permission to drink my root beer. That does not mean that because I mentioned only you, you are forced to drink my root beer. "

It does if I am forced to drink your root beer by another rule.

To put it on the same level as Escalation, we would need a general rule stating that everyone who watches the football at your place must drink your root beer.

Then, we add in another rule that says that when a Grand Final is playing, only I may drink your root beer. So, since I don't have a rule that says I may do anything other than drink root beer, I'm still bound by the regular rule that says I must drink your root beer, but nobody else is able to do so because of the Grand Final rule.

Ah, you don't want to drink my root beer?

Root beer for the lose.

The escalation special rules read:

(infantry units) "may be deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise. All units not deployed are in reserve and will arrive in accordance with the normal Reserve rules."

The Terminator special rules read:

"A Terminator squad may teleport onto the battlefield, taking the fight directly to the heart of their enemy's battle lines. They may always start the game in Reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike special rule, even if it is not part of the mission being played."

How is it that 'may' in the first instance means obligation, and 'may' in the second instance means choice?


I would alter the root beer scenario slightly. The general rule isn't that everyone has to drink root beer, the general rule is that everyone must drink a soda while at ATI's house (enter play). The second rule is that those people who don't drink root beer have to drink a Coke. During the Grand Final only insaniak may drink a root beer.

Insaniak can still choose not to drink the root beer, but if he does, that means he has to drink a Coke.

:~)

It does if it is the only option that you are given.

"The escalation special rules read:
(infantry units) "may be deployed at the start of the game"

You don't get to skip the bits you don't like.

As I've been saying all along, the escalation special rules actually read:
"ONLY (infantry units) may be deployed at the start of the game"

Which makes it a very different statement.



The difference between this and the Terminator rules is actually quite clear.

Terminators:
"Deploy Forces" rules say that all units must be deployed.
"Teleport" rule says that they can instead stay in Reserve and Deep Strike.

The Terminators therefore have an option. They can follow the normal rules, and deploy, or they can Teleport.


Escalation:
"Deploy Forces" rules say that all units must be deployed.
"Escalation" says that only Infanty may be deployed.

Infantry therefore do NOT have a choice. Escalation says that any unit that is not Infantry can not be deployed. Infantry are still bound by the normal deployment rules.

For Infantry to be held in Reserve, you would need a rule that specifically ALLOWS them to be held in Reserve.


"I would alter the root beer scenario slightly. The general rule isn't that everyone has to drink root beer, the general rule is that everyone must drink a soda while at ATI's house (enter play). The second rule is that those people who don't drink root beer have to drink a Coke. During the Grand Final only insaniak may drink a root beer"

Nope. That's a different set-up.
What you've just said:
 - The general rule is that [units] must [deploy normally] while at ATI's house.
 - The second rule is that those [units] who don't [deploy by method A] have to [deploy by method b]
 - During the Grand Final only [infantry] may [deploy by method A]

The actual set-up we're looking at is in fact this:

 - The general rule is that [units] must [deploy normally] while at ATI's house.
  - The second rule is that those [units] who don't [deploy normally] have to [deploy by method B]
  - During the Grand Final only [infantry] may [deploy normally]


Nowhere in any of that is the infantry given any option other than to deploy normally.

Well now I agree with you Insaniak given the deployment rules you are right. Have a root beer

The original discussion was for a Webway Portal DE army.  When you have a portal you may choose to hold any models in reserve you choose.  So thereby making all of this easily done assuming reserve rolls.  So escalation really does not mess up everyone's army, just most