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Right, ive been playing games against this person who constantly snipes Tigurius with his battlecannons, and ive decided its time to challange the issue.

I have Tigurius, with a command squad retinue. My opponant collects guard and uses 2 leman russes.

Now, because tiggys fear of the darkness will wreck his army, he shoots battlecannons at the unit. Now, he has these wierd rules which say his may pick out tigurius with his battlecannons.

He basically says he can position the template so that it covers tigurius and other models (no problems here). Now, he says that if he scores a direct hit with his battlecannon, the blast only affects the models under the template. So basically, he can roll to wound tigurius seperatly, and on a 2+ tigurius will die to a battlecannon shot.

Now, he says that if he scatters (even if its just an inch), he can't roll to wound Tigurius seperatly, and any models may be removed, not just ones under the actual blast template. This applies even if tigurius is still under the blast marker (as you might get with a 1 inch scatter).

Is this right...can he target my characters as long as he scores a direct hit? Or has he pulled this out of his backside, because I can't find anything in the rulebook to support his view.

AFAIK, only Necrons with their Monolith can potentially snipe a character. I say your friend is full of it.

Actually, according to the new FAQ, only *scattering* ordnance can wound members of a squad who are out of range and LOS.

If he scores a direct hit, and he has placed the template such that Tiggy and the members of his squad under the template are the *only* members of the squad that are in LOS (72" range probably not being an issue with a Battlecannon), then he is correct under the RAW.

I think it's silly, but there's nothing in the rules that say to use Blast rules when dealing with Ordnance.

Personally, I play that any member of the squad can be removed under either a direct hit or a scatter with Ordnance, much like with Blast weapons. Precisely to avoid this kind of sniping.

Yeah, the only way he can "Snipe" tiggy is if he kills every member of the squad with that ord shot.

Actually, he's not even close to right. First off, you don't roll to wound seperately for models in a squad ever from shooting. There is the torrent of fire rule which forces your opponent to make a specific save against a certain model if he wounds equal to the total models i the squad. However, if he managed to do that with a battlecannon, the entire squad is dead anyways.

Now if Tiggy was the only one the tank could see and the shot doesn't scatter, then Tiggy is the only possible casaulty by RAW.

i say he is full of it.

taking into account all of the rules including the ones specificly designed to prevent character sniping, there are only a few models in 40K that have the abilty to pick out certain models and snipe them. a leman russ isn't one of them.

 

we have always used the blast rules for templates-the  casualties can come from anywhere in the squad(s) hit not just whats under the template.

 

it sounds like he is looking for loopholes to give him an unfair advantage. and i would refuse to lay him if he was adamant about doing it.

AFAIK the only way to snipe is through a monolith, absent that he needs to show the the specific ruling he is referring to in order to kill of Tigerius on a direct hit.   The examples stated above show how he might be the only available target, BUT unless his ordinance weapons have killed the entirety of the retinue, (or the blast marker hits the entire squad) Tigerius shouldn't have to make any kind of save. 

There is nothing in the rulebook to actually support your opponents play with regards to a direct hit.

Thanks guys, he has indeed been cheating, or at best misunderstood the rules.

If Tiggy was the only one in line of sight, then of course I would take tiggy off, as thats the rules and its probably my own fault for positioning my models in such a way anyway. But what im talking about is a wide open space, where the tank can see every model in the unit, and is easily in range, and can't cover the entire unit with a battlecannon shot (spread out troops).

No more dying for Tiggy then...oh, I can't wait to ask him to prove his "rule" on saturday, which of course he won't be able to, then lay waste to his army with a fear of the darkness!

You do know that FOTD is only a 12 inch bubble?? Even with Tiggy

Still up for debate; depends on local house rule.

No, its 12 inches with a normal librarian. The Hood of Hellfire doubles it to 24 inches.

You are incorrect, it is 12 inches. Write down that rule, and you will see why.

This is a subject for another post; either revive the old one, or make a new one. It is not germane to the subject of this thread, either way.

No, it is you that is incorrect. Hood of Hellfire doubles the range of all psychic powers, and this includes fear of the darkness. I don't see how you can say otherwise...

Anyway, your probably just not reading the rules properly. Ive got the codex in front of me now...its crystal clear fear's range is doubled to 24 inches.

Start another post if you want to continue the Tiggy debate yet again.


last marine:
FYI, the opposing viewpoint is that while the hood doubles range, fear has no "range" but rather an area of effect.
I'm not arguing either side, I'm just lettting you know what you're up against.

Now, both of you, please take it elsewhere...

How many times has that debate been argued and is it worth bringing up again?

Of course its worth bringing up! This is obvious!

The area of effect is the range. The area of effect of a boltgun is 24 inches...thats the area in which it can have an effect....24 inches around it.

The area of effect, which is the range of tiggys fear, is 24 inches.

Would you argue that vortex of dooms range isn't doubled, as it does not have a range. Infact, only smite has a  "range" characteristic. The other 3 powers aint range dependant.

Range= area of effect.

Area of effect= range



 

No where does the power mention a range. Unless the rules says that something is a 'range', a special ability that doubles the 'range' won't work on it.

Think of it this way...Does Tiggy double the area of the blast from smite?

Bloody wierdo's...ive never met any other players who play like this!

If 12 inches isnt the range, then what the hell is the range??? If range is 0 inches, he can't effect anyone to begin with!

I just looked up the last thread on this, and it turned nasty fairly quickly. However, im standing by my statement that range= area of effect.

Skyth, the small blast template isn't the area of effect, it merely shows what models can be damaged. 12 inches is its area effect...it can affect any unit you like within 12 inches!

There is no other reason to take tiggy than double range fear of the darkness! It is so obvious what the intent was, at any rate. Man, its even the RAW.

Even if it isn't the RAW (which it is) im going to go ahead and do it anyway, as ive been putting up with my opponant cheating by sniping tiggy for so long, perhaps its time he got a taste of his own medicine.

But even the RAW says the range is doubled. Unless you wish to say smite is the only power whose range can be doubled, as vortex of doom doesn't have a defined range either.

And your interpretation is not the most popular interpretation, which 95% of people play by.

Not doubling the range would go against the designers intent, and Rules as Intended are much more important than Rules as Written.

RAW supports doubled fear, the intent supports it, I support it...whats not to like?

Posted By the_last_marine on 10/25/2006 5:28 PM

Skyth, the small blast template isn't the area of effect, it merely shows what models can be damaged. 12 inches is its area effect...it can affect any unit you like within 12 inches!

There's no difference between claiming Tiggy doubles fear and that he doubles the distance that the blast template goes out.

RAW, Tiggy's doubling only works on one power.  The one that lists a range.

The Last Marine: Ok, you've chosen to ignore everyone's request to take it to another thread, but you won't.

a. RAW does not necessarily support doubling FotD w/ Tiggy. FotD has no Range listed on it.

b. You have no way to prove the elusive intent arguement. It's simply not there in writing and no designer has put their intent in writing.

c. You support it, well, this you would be correct, especially since you play against IG.

Now go on giving the smackdown to Guard players with the 24" FotD in which of the previous 3, you can prove letter C.

It is the Last Marine's post so I guess he can hijack it however he sees fit. Still though, If you are arguing that FoD has no range, that means it technically shouldn't be allowed to fire. Remember you can only, as per the shooting rules effect models within range of the weapon you are firing (in this case a psychic power), if your argument is that FoD has no range then technically it doesn't work as a power (0 range means zero available targets when using the power).

Taking this a step further as per the shooting rules, if you use FoD and don't have LoS to an opponent you technically can't harm those opponents (Models out of LoS and range are not valid targets). 

This clearly can't be what the framers intended. So a more liberal interpretation of the range of this power (the 12 inches) has to be included otherwise we are stuck with several useless powers.

how dumb are some poeple. if FOD affects people whitin 12inches then doubling it would make it 24inches, how could it be played any other way. i agree with whoever said weirdos. where do these people play? (if they indeed play as it seems to me they spend more time looking at rules)

Beef we are in agreement, that enough should say something. Just kidding. It seems pretty plain to me as well, but oh well, here we are.

That is false. In game terms, range is not equal to area of effect. A bolter doesn't affect an area. It doesn't shoot every model within 24". It can mearly target a model within its range. So a bolter doesn't have an area of effect. Infact, no shooting ability in 40k has an area of effect outside of templates (that I know of, feel free to provide an example).


Yes, psychic powers use the shooting rules, unless stated otherwise. its pretty clear that FoD having an area of effect and not a range would be considered 'otherwise'.

That doesn't answer the central premise, people here are stating that only ONE psychic power has a range.

Now here is the problem you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the range of FoD is 12" or it has no range (zero inches). If it has no range that means the above statement is true, you can't actually target hit anyone (range equals 0). if it works within 12" then by all means that is the range and Tigerious hood should work on that. You CAN'T however argue that the range characteristic is BOTH no inches and 12" that my friends is a mutually exclusive problem. Its one or the other not both.

Additionally the same problem exists for Vortex of doom, neither describes a range in its "statline" unlike Smite.  If that is true then this power doesn't work.  You can't make vortex of doom go somewhere when you don't have a range to decide the power by.

If you believe that the above logic is false, the only way to get to that conclusion is by stating that the abilities have range (as stated in the text, both are 12" one scatters the other is a 12" AoE).  If you concede that this is the range then by all means Hood of Hellfire applies.

Except FOTD range is not 12 inches. It is an area of affect 24 inches accross centered on the caster. What is the range of a bubble?

Put it like this, ATI... A battle cannon has a "range" of 72 inches, it has an area of effect the size of the ordnance blast template.

FOTD has a range of 0, it is centered on the caster, but has an area of effect 24 inches accross

A flamer has a range of 0, it is again dependent on the location of the firer. But has an area of effect the size of the flamer template.

If you had a power that doubled the range of all of your ranged attacks, what would happen to your flamer? That is the basis of the argument.

I'm not saying FoD has a range 12" and a range of 0". I'm saying it has no range characteristic (or range 'self' which seesm to be the implied range of the power) but an area of effect of 12". These are two very different things as explained in my post above.

Your argument hinges on FoD operating as a shooting weapon. However that is a false premise in regards to psychic powers. A psychic power doesn't have to follow the shooting rules as long as its rules state otherwise. In the case of FoD, having a range of self and an area effect of 12" logically fits under a statement of otherwise. Infact a vast majority of psychic powers work contrary to the shooting rules.

Thus having no range characteristic (or range self) can't keep you from using FoD. You simply use its area of effect characteristic which isn't 'range' and thus logically wouldn't be affected by Tiggy's hood.