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Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior




yukishiro1 wrote:
Necronplayer wrote:


From this, it's pretty easy to say Ophydian do MORE damage to MEQ, even without Rad-Wreathed. I'm sure we can find plenty of scenarios where one unit is better than the other, but I wouldn't write this unit off so easily though.


But they don't. MEQ have two wounds. Skorpekhs come out very marginally ahead, though it's effectively equal. The point is that, contrary to the claims of others in the thread, they actually don't do much more damage than skorpekhs against hardly anything except 1W models. The difference is very marginal against other profiles, except for the ones that skorpekhs are significantly better at, namely T5 and T8.

If you want to talk about rad-wreathed go for it, I can't imagine why I'd ever, ever take it as opposed to ob-sec on everything. But if you want to run things that way they are less clearly worse than skorpekhs.
Obviously against 1W targets Ophydians do more damage, as I noted above. But again, flayed ones do even more.


Skorpekh do 5.02 that do 2 damage or more, so around 5 MEQ dead. Ophydian do 4.53, so also around 5 MEQ dead as well (depending how you round it). And an additional wound from their other attack. Of course, these are all averages so it's not perfect.

Well, if you're thinking of running melee units, people tend to look at Novokh as the go to dynasty. I'd argue that the 6" free move and Rad-Wreathed would be better, which is why I mentioned it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




In 9th every army needs both shooting and melee, you're going to flop pretty hard without significant ability to do both. I think ob-sec on all + 6" movement is the clear competitive choice right now, with maybe an argument to be made for sautekh in certain lists for the good characters.

But I am fine with saying ophydians and skorpekhs are essentially equal in terms of damage output vs MEQ, in fact that was my point. They aren't the crazy damage dealers people are making them out to be. They're more or less the same as skorpekhs against most of the things you'd want to run them into, while being much, much squishier.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





What's everyone's thoughts on the best C'tan power to choose?

Been building lists with the Nightbringer and haven't come to a conclusion about what ability I should go for.

I've been leaning towards either Antimatter Meteor or Sky of falling stars.

I was leaning towards meteor for the consistent 3 mws but I just realized you don't need LOS for falling stars so now I'm leaning in that direction. What does the Hive Mind think?

 Psienesis wrote:
While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Probably transdimensional thunderbolt, just because it's always useful. Especially since the bounce can hit characters, who are already terrified of your gaze.

Falling stars is kinda junk against MSU / vehicle lists, and anti-matter meteor isn't targetable which really limits its effectiveness.

Cosmic fire is great as a swap if you get into melee with a blob, but I probably wouldn't take it from the start.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 21:49:06


 
   
Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior




yukishiro1 wrote:
In 9th every army needs both shooting and melee, you're going to flop pretty hard without significant ability to do both. I think ob-sec on all + 6" movement is the clear competitive choice right now, with maybe an argument to be made for sautekh in certain lists for the good characters.

But I am fine with saying ophydians and skorpekhs are essentially equal in terms of damage output vs MEQ, in fact that was my point. They aren't the crazy damage dealers people are making them out to be. They're more or less the same as skorpekhs against most of the things you'd want to run them into, while being much, much squishier.


Yeah, I agree that ObSec/6" will be the go-to. With how restricting protocols are, I'm tempted to just give it up and run 2 different dynasties. ObSec/6" in one, and Rad-Wreathed/6" in another. Rad-Wreathed is just interesting because of the breakpoints on our fast, melee units. Wraiths wound MEQ on 2s and Scarabs wound GEQ on 3s.

And I don't plan on running either of those units, to be honest. Wraiths just seem like the all around balanced option at 35ppm. Less killy, but better survivability, mobility, and fall back and charge. And with the free 6" move, they're almost guaranteed to land a charge first turn.


   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




Forgoing protocols is 100% interesting. You can probably ditch Nobles while you are at it and just run a Skorpekh Lord and a bunch of Crypteks.

But Mephrit and Novokh are not be underestimated. The latter might be really interesting for people who are playing in harder local metas or are in parts of the world where tournaments are happening. You got to be prepared for Harlequins, and your average Necron list won't be.
   
Made in se
On a Canoptek Spyder's Waiting List




Since the DDA and the new Doomstalker are super swingy in their shots and damage, what would be a fair change to make them more consistent? I know GW won't change them anytime soon but could there be a fair change for them so they'd be more fun to play with and against in casual games?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 22:05:21


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I am planning on trying out one blob of 5, maybe 6 skorpekhs and a lord, because the -1 to wound stratagem is amazing and the lord is a pain to get rid of with the -1D trait and living metal, but I don't think more than one unit of them makes a lot of sense. The -1 to wound stratagem is what makes them work, and you can only do that on one thing a phase.

I am torn on wraiths, because they don't actually really much only hitting on 4s, and at that point, I feel like scarabs can do a similar role for half the points.
   
Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior




epaemil wrote:
Since the DDA and the new Doomstalker are super swingy in their shots and damage, what would be a fair change to make them more consistent? I know GW won't change them anytime soon but could there be a fair change for them so they'd be more fun to play with and against in casual games?


I really thought they were changing DDA to 2D3 or D3+3, similar to how they handled the Doomscythe.

Doomscythe went from D3 shots D6 damage to 3 shots D3+3 damage.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




epaemil wrote:
Since the DDA and the new Doomstalker are super swingy in their shots and damage, what would be a fair change to make them more consistent? I know GW won't change them anytime soon but could there be a fair change for them so they'd be more fun to play with and against in casual games?


For just playing garagehammer with mates? Flat 3 shots, flat 3 damage. Actually comes out slightly worse in both cases mathematically, but addresses the frustration.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Acehilator wrote:
Forgoing protocols is 100% interesting. You can probably ditch Nobles while you are at it and just run a Skorpekh Lord and a bunch of Crypteks.

This is exactly what I'm going to do. Well, probably only one Skorpekh Lord and one Cryptek. I'm tempted by the CCB because it looks excellent at 150 points, but then it has to be the Warlord which is irritating
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Any thoughts on Resurrection Orbs?

At first I thought they sounded good. However, on reflection, it seems like they're still pretty bad on the units you'd want them for. Especially since you're hoping that your opponent kills enough models to make the Orb worthwhile (e.g. you need at least 3 dead Destroyers to get even even a single one back on average dice), but not enough to just kill the entire unit. Seems pretty awkward in terms of timing.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior




IMO, the big edge up Wraiths have on every other melee unit is how consistent they are at getting into CC on turn 1. The deployment gap is <= 24" (varies), and wraiths have base 12" move + 6" free + 1" (if running protocols). With 19" move, you're only looking at a 5" charge to get into the enemy deployment zone when the gap is 24".

They won't be killing as much as our other options (unit of 3 kills 2.66 MEQ), but they'll be tying things up in the enemy deployment zone, while the rest of your army takes mid field.

Though, my current list/strat in progress is a 20 warrior reaper bomb with Technomancer to give the follow up Canoptek (wraiths/scarabs) units +1 to hit. It'll be a lot for your opponent to deal with on turn 1.
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




Rez Orb (with Orb of Eternity upgrade) is autoinclude when running 2x 20 Warriors (or 2x 10 Immortals) and upwards. You are going to be able to use it on one of those units in T2/T3. If not, you are either winning comfortably or got stomped, and the 30 points invested in something else wouldn't have changed anything either.

If you want to bring a Destroyer back, buy the Cryptek Arcana (pretty much also autoinclude when running Destroyers).
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






I think orbs are good if you are using silver tides. 2 warriors = 26 points so if you time it right you will benefit greatly.

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Anyone know what the point of the canoptek cloak is for the technomancer? Since he can only res core units, none of them are particularly fast. The fast units tend to be the canoptek units but they would prefer the cryptek to take the control node.

So I'm just wondering is this a wargear that has a bitching cool model but will never see any play? Or am I missing something?

 Psienesis wrote:
While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
 
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




The Canoptek Cloak is the new model with the Technomancer surfing with the antigrav scarab. So yeah, it's a bitching cool model.

It's the go to support unit for Senor Skorpekh & gang, rocking the Phylacterine Hive.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




A rez orb is good if you take a 20-man warrior or flayed one squad, otherwise I am not sold on them. You only need to raise 3 warriors to make your points back, which is 8.5 warriors or 9 flayed ones dead, which is realistic with a 20 man squad, but not with any 10-man squad.

The relic is interesting primarily because it opens up 10 man squads as worth using it on, which means you can rez lycheguard. If for some weird reason you actually take a 10-man lycheguard squad, and if you assume 1CP = 25 points, using it on a squad that's lost 4 or more models will break even, which starts to feel plausible.

I still don't think it's very good except if you run a 20-man squad though. And even then, there's a solid argument for just taking more stuff and having more flexibility.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 23:49:27


 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

yukishiro1 wrote:
A rez orb is good if you take a 20-man warrior or flayed one squad, otherwise I am not sold on them. You only need to raise 3 warriors to make your points back, which is 8.5 warriors or 9 flayed ones dead, which is realistic with a 20 man squad, but not with any 10-man squad.

The relic is interesting primarily because it opens up 10 man squads as worth using it on, which means you can rez lycheguard. If for some weird reason you actually take a 10-man lycheguard squad, and if you assume 1CP = 25 points, using it on a squad that's lost 4 or more models will break even, which starts to feel plausible.

I still don't think it's very good except if you run a 20-man squad though. And even then, there's a solid argument for just taking more stuff and having more flexibility.


The thing is, Warriors are the models I have the least interest in bringing back. So if that's all Resurrection Orbs can be expected to help with, I'd rather just ditch them entirely and instead put those points towards units that are actually useful.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





We'd be looking seriously at the res orb if Lychguard were better, like d3 warscythes & 5++ or something. Because then you'd have a valuable target to use it on
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Tiberius501 wrote:
bored1 wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
Surtr wrote:
Little question about RP.

If one Model with multiple weapons shoots at one unit with RP. Do i roll for RP after every weapon or after it has shoot every weapon?


After the unit has concluded its attacks (the latter). E.G. you get shot by a Tactical Squad: they fire their bolters, missile launcher, and flamer - everything they've got - before you roll RP. Rinse & repeat


Is there a condition where "each time an enemy unit shoots or fights, after it makes it's attacks...", it makes more attacks in that phase? It is a contradiction in terms.


Edit: also, what's up with the hyperspace hunter key word on the hexmark?


If an enemy unit gets to then fight again in any way after it has performed it’s normal bunch, namely the type you’re talking about where it specifically says it’s a new bunch of attacks, you roll RP before they make the second lot of attacks then again after the second, to my understanding.

The Hyperspace Hunter keyword is on Hexmarks and the new Hexmarks destroyer dude. Allows them both to take advantage of a strat and maybe some other abilities I’m not aware of.


That's a good point... I'd think that may need clarity. But that's an edge case. In general I don't think it is at all confusing.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hey team, call me crazy but...Obelisks are good now? I've just read the codex, and I'm prepared to give em a stab. It's topsy turvy day alright!

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Unfortunately, paying 3CP to take something that doesn't get dynasty bonuses, has no invuln save, and has 0 AP on its shots is...well...yeah. You're going to make somebody's eradicators very, very happy.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'll bite, where does it say Obelisks don't get dynasty bonuses?

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's a LoW. Unless you're taking 3, it's in an auxiliary super-heavy detachment, which doesn't give detachment bonuses.

If you want to take 3 (lol), you can get dynasty bonuses...and then pay 6CP.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ah, so, like many of my bad plans, you are saying that I need to double down!

Bonus benefit, with three obelisks I can call the list 'Throbilisk' with a straight face.


All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
Made in gb
Loyal Necron Lychguard





40kenthusiast wrote:
Ah, so, like many of my bad plans, you are saying that I need to double down!

Bonus benefit, with three obelisks I can call the list 'Throbilisk' with a straight face.

I'm not sold on the straight face section......


But jokes aside, do we really have that stupid clause that says SHAux can't recieve dynasty traits still, because thats just fething dumb

Experience is something you get just after you need it
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k
The Shadewatch - 3k
Cadmus Outriders - 4k
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k  
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




It's in the core book. Yes it's stupid.
   
Made in gb
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Acehilator wrote:
It's in the core book. Yes it's stupid.
That;s utterly ridiculous.....

Well, at least it not just us this time. I know that Necrons 8th Ed outright said it itself, and I am not sure if anyone else's did, silver linings I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Follow-up thought, can you still take a LoW in a Supreme Command? Thinking a bunch of extra nobles or crypteks and a Monolith?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 12:46:06


Experience is something you get just after you need it
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k
The Shadewatch - 3k
Cadmus Outriders - 4k
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k  
   
Made in nl
Fresh-Faced New User




So I love the idea of a full canoptek army list, so i tried to build one, any ideas for any adjustments?
2000 point Canoptek list:
Spoiler:

Outrider detachment

Dynasty: Eternal Conquerors + Relentlessly expansionist

1 Technomancer 75
canoptek control node 15
Phylacterine Hive 20

1 Technomancer 75
canoptek control node 15
fail safe overcharger 30

3 Canoptek spyders 180
2 Gloom prism 10
3 Particle beamer 15

3 Canoptek spyders 180
2 Gloom prism 10
3 Particle beamer 15

6 Canoptek wraiths 210

6 Canoptek wraiths 210

6 Canoptek wraiths 210

6 Canoptek wraiths 210

8 Scrab swarm 120

8 Scrab swarm 120

1 Canoptek doomstalker 140

1 Canoptek doomstalker 140

CP: 9

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/10 12:50:14


Looking for a wargame miniature event in the netherlands? look no further, please visit http://impact.hiredguns.nl/  
   
 
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