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There has been quite a hype around Harlekins, that I dont really understand.

Harles are very good on the offense. Thats for sure. But they also are damn fragile for their price.

t3 5+ save means that they will die pretty fast to simple Bolter fire...


2d6x2 to target them - Problem: double tapping Bolters will shoot you at below 12" anyways. At 10" youll be hit with a chance of 84%.  Not so great isnt it?

5+ save and Fortune - Problem: 5+ saves you 33% of the time. With reroll you save 55%. Thats only slightly better then a 4+ save.

And thats best case not figuring in Librarians.

Example:10 Bolters shoot Harlys

    20 shots x2/3 hits x2/3 woundsx 45% (or often 67%) unsaved = 4 (or often 6) kills

Cover the distance with fleet to avoid rapid fire - Problem: Youll need to get at least within 13" of a target. If that target moves towards you 6" and then rapid fires 12" youll get hit. (btw if it move 6" back you ll stand in the open without a target and be hit too.)

Conclusion: Harlekins seem to be far from "best unit in the game" and "the cheese", since they die rather fast unless you can get them straight into close combat.


 

They might not be the best unit in the game but I fail to see your point. Is it that because Harlequins aren't the best unit in the game (read: easiest unit in the game to use) they shouldn't be included in competitive Eldar armies, or what?

As far as Bolters are concerned, the armies I play against generally have about 3-5 5 or 6man las/plas squads, meaning 9-20 Bolters dispersed throughout the entire length of the battlefield. Not so scary now is it?

Also your odds of being able to shoot at 11-12" with bolters are not so great that risking it with one squad with 5 bolters is worth it.

It's something like 27% or so that you'll get 10" or less spotting distance, and then you die.

And like Therion says how many people use big squads of bolter dudes anyway? Sisters of battle is about all I can think of.

Harlies are challenging to use, but ignoring difficult terrain is another huge advantage people forget they have. Force those bolter marines to walk through difficult to shoot you and suddenly it's even more chancey to try to doubletap them with bolters. Might not make it into range, might not get spotting distance, etc.

I think you'll see a lot of people who thought they were uber try them and then quit, but I think you'll see just as many people use them as part of a sick combined arms army. They are hands down the best assault unit in the new codex, and they're hard to kill (e.g. impossible) outside 24" and very flexible because they ignore terrain and have fleet.

Can they be hit with indirect fire?

Yeah I'm pretty sure indirect fire still is strong but thats an iffy proposal at best. Spaced out correctly you shoudl get 4 at best then with the fortune maybe take out 2 tops? The thing is, that alone yes they'd die horribly but with 3 falcons, and a couple jet bike units I don't see why you'd ever expect your indirect artillery to make it past turn 2 or 3.

As for bolters, as has been said there usually aren't that many big squads out there. The only times this woudl come to hurt the player would be in Drop pod or SoB armies, and even the Drop Pod isn't so bad as you probably wont get hit with a flamer that cancels all saves.

harlies hate drop pods. deepstriking terminators. those teleporting necrons. tau fire warriors in a devil fish. imperial guard drop troops. basically anything that can get close quickly and rapid fire.

Um, won't most Eldar players stick the Harlies in uber-Falcons with Star Engines and be in assault range on turn 2? That seems to negate several of these disadvantages.

Oh, i dont know, 40 rending attacks at str 4 on the charge that ignore difficult terrain and can fleet with an invulnerable save for 220 points!!!!!

....sounds pretty good to me. Thats cheaper than genestealers.

Of course you need to upgrade one to a shadowseer to get grenades for the squad but then you also get the night-fight rule for them..still, not too shabby for the points.

 

it seems to me that the new role for the uber-hth guys is for support behind the lines. I keep my banshees and harlies back in my lines hidden until the enemy comes to me, then they move out in a support role after the avatar and fearless guardians have held them up.  None of the hth troops save scorpions have the armor to go trecking across the field too much. Sure, you can put them in an uber-transport, but those transports get pricey really fast, and they are not open topped so you still have to wait at least a turn. My favorits tactic with the hth guys is to keep them back and then rush forward on my turn to surround transports then pop them with shooting so all the troops inside are auto-killed. I did that to take out an ork truck full of burnas last week.

The way the rule is phrased it suggests that you can't shoot harlequins with indirect fire without making a sighting roll.

Don' t have my book with me, but I remember checking that specifically and the rule saying something to the effect that if you want to shoot them, you have to roll, and if you fail the roll, you can't shoot at all.  There's no exception for indirect fire, and since indirect weapons still have to declare a target, they fall under this rule.

The Veil of Tears rule doesn't mention anything about night fight--it's not a night fight sighting roll, it's a unique rule for a different kind of sighting roll--so the night fight doublescatter rule doesn't apply.

The only possible exception I can see for shooters who don't have to roll for sighting harlequins is things that don't declare a target like fury, minefields or--now--vibrocannons.

Therion and Longshot: what kinds of units are in the marine armies at the places where you play? Those marine armies must have something in them besides las-plas squads.

There are always plenty of mobile boltguns around at the place where I play--and also plenty of speeder-mounted heavy bolters and autocannons.

I have to second that. Terminators, Speeders, Preds with HB sponsons, Devastators etc all provide quite numerous shots and many of them wounding on 2+.



Words of truth.

What do you think would be ways to combine Harleys with other units?

- Falcon delivery and staying inside for one round of shooting doesnt seem so bad actually. The Falcon will have moved (very) fast, even immobilizing him wont destroy him with the new upgrade. Next turn your Harlys get out and charge things within 13-18" and the Falcon flys away moving fast again.

- Countercharge - Simple and effective for sure. Shooty armys that can force the opponent towards your Eldar will propably use this to good effects.

- Send something else ahead... Propably you could send more mobile units like Jetbikes into the enemy lines, to keep them buisy for a turn until your Harlys join in. (A bit like Gaunts combined with Stealers in a Nid army with the benefit, that unlike Stealers, Harlys cant be shot from far away)

The hype about harliquins comes from the fact that they are now the premeier assault unit for eldar. All these new scuplts for scorpions and banshees and there's little reason to take them when harliquins are superior against any target and have an easier time getting into assault.

Also note that the average range to see the VoTd harlies is 12" and their average threat range in a single turn is 15.5" through terrain. I don't see doubletapping bolters as an issues unless they are drop podding. Otherwise they can be fairly easily avoided or dealt with (infiltrators and rhinos as an example).

Now, speeders and other mobile units with S5+ weapons? Brutal. Still ,those units will have to get close and expose themsleves to shoot the harlies and eldar have several ways to take advantage of that.

In my area most space marine armies are a joke.

We have some Lysander wing armies, a few tough iron warriors armies with 4 tanks, a blood angels guy with 3 assault squads, 3 baals and a crapload of scouts and a death company, that kinda stuff, but mostly just noobcakes.

Lysanderwing vs. Harlequin horde is some kind of stupid joke I hope. It'd take your entire army shooting to kill more than 1 squad and then only if you get REALLY REALLY CLOSE. Terminators at 12" from harlequins is a dangerous game imho. You drop your entire army within 12" of a cluster of harlequins, and your clusters of closely packed terminators are going to eat it.

Even at 12", chances are one of your five squads won't be in sighting range. So four squads - do the math on what four squads of termies would do to harlequins. Your 1500 pts of terminators will not kill anywhere near 500 pts of harlequins, and then they get charged by them and hit with fire prism plates, starcannons, and the rest of the Eldar army.

Speeders are not really a big danger. They have to be 24" away from the harlequins at the start of the turn they plan to engage them (they move 12" to get within 12" of harlies to be able to shoot them reliably). That means they're within 24"-36" of the rest of the eldar army, and chances are the rest of the Eldar army will blow them away.

I envision seeing a lot of armies with either 2 squads of harlies in falcons, or a big walking squad with a farseer.

Or what I am now toying with - 2 squads of harlequins and Eldrad, with him fortuning them both as they advance.

The big danger with harlequins is the rest of the Eldar army. Remember that in order to get a shot on the harlies next turn you have to be either 18" or 24" away from them depending on your speed.

People think like they're going to get to shoot harlies at 24" but realistically shooting them from further away than 12-14" is a waste because you'll lose so many shots that way it'll make the harlequins worth the points just for denying you shots.

Armies that can easily hold your tanks at bay and waste shots thinning the harlequins out - like Iron warriors - will be a threat. Armies with whirlwinds, also a threat. Armies like Orks with lots and lots of T4 guys they can throw away are also scary. Necrons are really frightening because they can put out a crazy volume of fire at 12" and get sucked out of assault.

Godzilla bugs could really put a hurt too because Harlies are not fearless. Forcing morale tests at Ld6 and putting a crazy number of shots at 12-18" will hurt them badly.

Drop pod marines with flamers are very scary too.

Normal marines are simply not fast enough and don't have enough guns to get the job done. Shooting a squad of 10 bolter marines at a squad of harlies means only 5-6 harlies are left, but they'll still wipe out your squad in assault with no casualties over the course of two turns (emptying killzone with 6 casualties is easy).

Flamers gained a whole new meaning for Space Marine players now that Harlequins will be tearing up the tables.  Flamers in podding units or flamers on Assault Squads are the only way that Space Marines could deal with a walking unit of Harlequins with a Warlock and Farseer with re-rolling cover saves and uber-nightfight, and that only works if those units don't get shot to pieces before hand or scatter out of range.  I totally agree that a standard SAFH marine list has no chance against a Harlequin horde.  And I still can't believe how cheap the Harlequins are for their abilities.  The new Eldar Codex is so amazing I think I may start them, although previously I had no desire to do so.

harliquins have an INVULN save not a cover save. flamer still does wonders against them but dosent take their save away from them, unless its an incinerator. funny thing is a demonhunter army is probably better at killing eldar than demons -=D.

Seems like Epistolaries are even more necessary now than ever, to hood away all these nasty powers.

Hoods prevent a farseer's LD10 power less than half the time (something like 35%). it helps but not something i'd bank on, since the epistolary will be rolling 3d6 on his own psychic tests and if he tries to use them will be turned into victory points very rapidly.

Some is better than nothing... and anyone who uses psychic powers themselves around Eldar gets what they deserve.

I think that some general stats should be put out on the Harlies before we start going on about this.

Due to Veil of Tears there are only 11 Possible Spotting Distances:

<table width="128" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 96pt;" x:str=""> <col width="64" style="width: 48pt;"></col> <col width="64" style="width: 48pt;"></col> <tbody> <tr height="68" style="height: 51pt;"> <td width="64" height="68" align="center" style="height: 51pt; width: 48pt;" class="xl26">Possible Spotting Distance (inches)</td> <td width="64" align="center" style="width: 48pt;" class="xl27">Chance of Occuring</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">4</td> <td align="center" x:num="2.7777777777777776E-2" class="xl25">2.78%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">6</td> <td align="center" x:num="5.5555555555555552E-2" class="xl25">5.56%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">8</td> <td align="center" x:num="8.3333333333333329E-2" class="xl25">8.33%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">10</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.1111111111111111" class="xl25">11.11%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">12</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.1388888888888889" class="xl25">13.89%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">14</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.16666666666666666" class="xl25">16.67%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">16</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.1388888888888889" class="xl25">13.89%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">18</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.1111111111111111" class="xl25">11.11%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">20</td> <td align="center" x:num="8.3333333333333329E-2" class="xl25">8.33%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">22</td> <td align="center" x:num="5.5555555555555552E-2" class="xl25">5.56%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">24</td> <td align="center" x:num="2.7777777777777776E-2" class="xl25">2.78%</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Now to make things more practical, here is a breakdown between unit distance from the Harlequin unit and the chance of failing the Veil Of Tears roll:

<table width="147" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 110pt;" x:str=""> <col width="83" style="width: 62pt;"></col> <col width="64" style="width: 48pt;"></col> <tbody> <tr height="68" style="height: 51pt;"> <td width="83" height="68" align="center" style="height: 51pt; width: 62pt;" class="xl26">Distance from Harlequins
</td> <td width="64" align="center" style="width: 48pt;" class="xl26">Chance of Failing VOT Roll</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">4</td> <td align="center" x:num="0" class="xl27">0%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">6</td> <td align="center" x:num="2.7777777777777776E-2" class="xl25">2.78%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">8</td> <td align="center" x:num="8.3333333333333329E-2" class="xl25">8.33%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">10</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.16666666666666666" class="xl25">16.67%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">12</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.27777777777777779" class="xl25">27.78%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">14</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.41666666666666669" class="xl25">41.67%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">16</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.58333333333333337" class="xl25">58.33%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">18</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.72222222222222232" class="xl25">72.22%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">20</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.83333333333333348" class="xl25">83.33%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">22</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.91666666666666685" class="xl25">91.67%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" align="center" x:num="" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">24</td> <td align="center" x:num="0.97222222222222243" class="xl25">97.22%</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
And now for some more Mathammer Goodness, lets take a look at a breakdown of some common "Marine Units of Death" and take a look at what they'd do to the Harlies assuming they pass their VOT check and are within 12" (Number in Parenthesis is for Harlies with Fortune):

5 Man Terminator Squad, 2 Assault Cannons = 4.88 (3.25) Dead Harlies
10 Marines, 1 Power Fist Sarge w/ Bolt Pistol, 1 Melta Gun = 5.4 (3.6) Dead Harlies
6 Man Las/Plas Squad = 3.11 (2.07) Dead Harlies
1 Landspeeder Tornado (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter) = 2.66 (1.77) Dead Harlies

*** End of Mathammer Harlequin Expose ***

Looking at this, saying that Harlequins are "the suck" is pretty friggin dumb.  I know that MathHammer isn't the end-all-be-all, but it's a very good indicator on what you can generally expect over time.

My initial thoughts on them was that dealing with them as Marines wouldn't be too terrible.  Running the numbers, your opponent can't really field 30 Harlies and 3 Kitted Falcons, so it's going to be either one or two squads of the killer space clowns  most likely.

The long and short of this is that there are two options for the Eldar player:

1.) Run a Squad of 6 in a Falcon, use Star Engine Delivery Systems, and charge on Turn 2.
2.) Walk them out across the board (using as much cover as available/needed) and charge.

#1 you can't do a whole lot about save for specific instances that you can't quantify easily.  If it happens to you, deal with it as best you can think of.

#2 Gives us the leeway we need to come up with ways to deal with the killer clowns.

Whirlwinds can deal with them, even if they're not directly targetable; simply because of how mines work. Also, almost any tournament army with a whirlwind will  have multiple of them, so you should be able to either scatter onto the harlie squad or at least restrict their movement options with Mines.  Worst comes to worst, mine the area in front of your gunline as much as possible and they'll take casualties eventually if they're going to charge in.

My other thought was that you could use the 3 Squadrons of 1 Landspeeder Tornado.  The harlies will have to come to you in variably, so you're better off not just zooming out balls to the wall to shoot the harlies on Turn 1.  You need to wait for them to advance somewhat closer to your lines (which they have to do) before jumping the speeders out of their hiding spot(s) and pouring 21 Shots onto them, killing 8 (without Fortune).  Given that the 3 Speeders would be in separate squads, it forces the Eldar player to split fire to deal with them.  250 Points for the "Optimal" Harlie Unit and 240 Points for 3 Speeders, and you're looking to do alright, especially if one or more of your speeders can live through the encounter.

Terminators, as the above MathHammer can show you aren't your best bet to deal with the Clowns.  You don't want to deep strike within 12" due to Safety concerns, and you'd be in charge range if you did anyway.  Plus the payoff isn't so great either for the amount killed vs. what you're looking at what you're paying for points wise for the Terminator Squad (240 Points Minimum, higher normally).

The 10 Man Squad is also inefficient in dealing with them, at least when you factor in the costs of a Rhino or a Drop Pod Transport.  So unless you've given them a Flamer, they're a risky proposition to throw up a Squad 10 Clowns Strong. 

Now the 6 Man/Las Plas squads still actually work pretty well, assuming that you have the full squad left.  If you can move up 6" and rapid fire, and make the VOT check (which you will fail at least one in every four tries at 12" , you can do fairly well.  Do this with 2 or 3 of the Las/Plas squads and you can actually put a lot of hurt into the Harlequin unit.   Of course this means you have to deploy your squads closer together, and try to stay away from any cover the harlies can use to charge through at you, but it can work if you use them in tandem to kill the Clowns.  Of course 3 6 Man Las/Plas squads costs more than the kitted out Harlequin squad, but they can do a number, especially if the squad isn't Fortuned.

One last unit that can do wonders but is hard to quantify is a Dread in a Drop Pod w/ a Heavy Flamer and an Assault Cannon.  They come in at near rock bottom prices and depending on how many harlies you can get under the template (probably a lot), you can do a lot of damage for a minimum of points.

I think that your average Marine SAFH, which is comprised primarily of Las/Plas squads, Speeders, Preds, and Terminators w/ Assault Cannons will have a problem with the Harlies, especially as Eldar players become more and more familiar with how to use them properly.

And don't even talk about what Harlies can do in CoD.

Wow good job. Your numbers show that vail cant be counted on in close quaters. But still it takes a lot of shots to kill a reasonable amount of Harlekins. So Harlekins are a bit more dureable than I thought. You might even successfully run Harlys across the board towards the enemy with some success as long as you present enough other targets once Harlys get into the critical 10-14" distance. Thouse "other targets" might even be the other twenty Harlys...

I think the clowns will be pretty effective. They'll munch up marines in HTH and provide a counter assault punch. In falcons, they'll almost always make it into HTH.

If you fielded 2 units of 10 with a farseer around, you might be able to use them successfully as a decoy unit. Use them to draw fire away from fragile units or keep the falcons shooting. They are mobile enough to threaten the enemy without a transport, start on the board in escallation, and are nasty enough in HTH to force your opponent to target them.

Harlys will propably indeed take away quite some fire from other units. Reason is that the opponent has only one chance (the turn before the Harlys charge) to kill them without great losses. So if he wants to play it save, he often will have to overcomit firepower to the Harlys.

And a marine opponent will often be presented with tough choices: Move another tac squad within rapidfire range to make sure veil wont ruin his plan? - or better keep the squad stationary in case Harlys die to the first volleys thus he can use the squads heavy weapon?

Harliquins are awesome. I used them to much sucess on the weekend.

What I did was heep them behind difficult terrain so the marines would be slowed down for their movement while my Harliquins wouldnt be.

In other words keet them behind cover/forests etc and then have them charge through it. You gotta love 40 Rending attacks.