Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi, I've been playing Skaven for a couple months now and I'm currently 3-6-2 with them. That's right, I'm terrible, haha. I mainly play against Dark Elves, and I use a warlords clan list. My 1500 pt list goes something like this-

Chieftain - (Halberd, Shield, Heavy Armor)
Warlock Engineer - (Warp Blades, Upgraded Warp Energy Condenser)

20 Stormvermin - (Shields, Umbranner, Musician)

25 Clanrats - (Spears, Standard, Musician)

25 Clanrats - (Standard, Musician, Ratling Gun)

25 Clanrats - (Standard, Musician)

20 Slaves

20 Slaves

20 Plague Monks - (Umbranner, Musician)

1 Giant Rat Pack

6 Gutter Runners (Poison HW's)

Giant

I lose pretty badly every time, and I'm pretty sure my tactics are sound and I mostly set up right. I do have pretty bad luck when it comes to rolls, but I must say, I'm considering dropping Skaven for Orcs or Undead because I'm quite frustrated with their seemingly large amount of ineptitude. He usually shoots me a lot before I get to him and when I do get to him my Skaven don't seem to do well enough even with all their numbers to actually win. I also get chain-feared a lot, ending up with multiple units running, most of which never rally. Pretty much everything goes to Hell by turn 3 and I'm gettting really frustrated, if anyone can give me any advice/strategy/tips it would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

"I lose pretty badly every time, and I'm pretty sure my tactics are sound and I mostly set up right. I do have pretty bad luck when it comes to rolls, but I must say, I'm considering dropping Skaven for Orcs or Undead because I'm quite frustrated with their seemingly large amount of ineptitude."

First off, it's not the dice rolls. Secondly, we need to address your build. Lose the spears off of the clanrats. The spears are not effective. Rather use their hw/sh for better saves. I don't think the storm vermin, giant rat pack, giant, and plague monks are points effective at your 1500 build. Adding more bricks of 25 clanrats will strenghten the list. Add some rat swarms for good measure too.

Thirdly, I don't think your set up and tactics are sound...because if they were, you wouldn't be complaining about switching builds and blaming the losses on your rat's ineptitude. Given the large number of clanrat and slave bricks that you now have you should be able to fit everything in checker-board style deployment within the general's leadership range. Lead from the rear, add your rank bonus, and keep your rats from fleeing.

Fourthly, use their speed and numbers. First turn? March. Second turn - if the enemy deployed on the line or moved forward, charge. If not, set up a 3rd turn charge. Who cares about getting shot. The enemy can't shoot enough rats to make an issue...

Lastly, orcs and undead would fair the same if you built a similar list and relied upon your "sound tactics and mostly right set up." Just keep playing and push yourself to understand the 'mechanics' of winning.

oops forgot - Remember, it's not about just charging and having CR win it for you. Flee if you must with slaves (they don't cause panic) and set up a nice counter and flank move for your other bricks.

Hells bells - if you're sick and tired of getting shot up. Deploy 2 of the slave units as a long line infront of the rest of your deployment and march forward for 2 turns. Remove casualties from the ends and keep your forces screened. Then unload.

More warlocks will solve your problems.

Actually spears are fine for one unit. Thats what I use. I really see nothing wrong with your list. So I would look at your tactics...in which case I doubt it has much to do with the army you chose.

I play both Dark Elves and Skaven and I will tell you Dark Elves are faster...much faster but their troops suck, their shooting sucks, their magic is OK but not great. The key to beating Dark Elves is to anticipate their movement because you should be outnumbering them 3 to 1. Don't let them flank you!

Dark Elf shooting should be easily countered. The only real shooting weapon you have to worry about is the Reaper Bolt thrower. A tunneling team should easily be able to dispatch RBT's. Don't worry about Dark Elf crossbows because they aren't that good except at close range (within 12" . Normally they hit on 5's and as long as they are not on a hill then you can cover your valuable units with slaves. If they are on a hill and they are bothering you then cast Warp lightning on them.  I would think more then one Warlock engineer would help your ability to cast warp lightning.

Dark Riders and other small flanking units are easily dispatched by ratling guns on your flank.

Now when your units "get to him" you should outnumber him 2 to 1 so get some flank charges after your engaged with him. His units are pretty good but they are brittle and weak and skaven are many.

Hmmm Scipio pretty much as the whole situation right, the reapers do tear me up pretty bad, but also the problem is i dont get any charges. I march the first turn, march the second, then he charges me. I've thought about stopping just in front of his charge range but he'd just back up his CC units and continue to rain pointy death on me. His witch elves are also particularly nasty (though one game through what can only be described as the most amazing luck ever my unit of 20 slaves beat a unit of w. elves and ran them down solo) The giant rats were added basically cuz i had 30 points left, and they actually did a pretty good job of distracting one of his units/march blocking him. Also, I forgot to add that my Plague monks have 2x HW's. Basically my problem is his shooting weakens me a lot, then by the time i reach him his super-maneuvrable units can generally beat me in combat and run me down. also, he generally gets a hill for his crossbowmen and reapers so slave screens aren't effective and any juicy units off on their own (gutter runners/ratling guns/warlock engineers sometimes) get sniped.

Excellant...he has witch elves and this means you own him!

Witch Elves have frenzy which means they must charge if they can! This is were your slaves come in handy...put them in charge range and make sure you have a unit of nasties positioned to charge the witches in the flank after they fail their charge when your slaves run away. Even your warriors should be able to beat witchelves when they have no rank bonuses!

How much magic does he have? It sounds like you need to neutralise his crossbows with Warp Lightning or buy some night runners with 2 hand weapons (a unit of 10 or 15 should do it). Its hard to shoot at skirmishers with xbows cause its -1 to hit skirmishers which means he need 6's at long range and 5 at short range.

Make sure you make your gutter runners into a "tunnel team" and remember they can charge the turn they pop up from the ground. So as long as there is no misfire result you should be able to charge his reaper crews pretty easily (they have a 12" charge and the max scatter is 10).

Tell us more about his army. Does he have any cavalry, magic or monsters?

BTW....you can't have 2 Umbranners.

Posted By AMP187 on 11/07/2006 11:22 AM
also, he generally gets a hill for his crossbowmen and reapers so slave screens aren't effective and any juicy units off on their own (gutter runners/ratling guns/warlock engineers sometimes) get sniped.

Almost forgot, I think your being rules smuckered here.  He can't target your ratling guns or warlocks if they are within 6" of one of your units.  Actually check the skaven rules about ratling guns (mine aren't with me at the moment)...those might be 3" but the bottom line is they cannot be "sniped" by Dark Elf crossbow guys.  Gutter Runners and Warlocks are also skirmish or single model on foot which means at long range he needs 6's to hit them. 

Are you still playing 6th edition or something? They can totally be sniped now (which probably makes them overpriced now, but that's a different thread)

He uses 1 or 2 units of warriors with spears, about 20 crossbowmen(elves?), 2 reaper bolt throwers (both reapers and crossbowmen on a hill usually), maybe 2 units of dirty dirty witch elves, a unit of dark riders, usually with crossbows, a cold one chariot, and perhaps a unit of black guard or executioners, oh and a sorceress who he upgrades to Lvl2 and somehow always rolls to get Black Horror, which is pretty much the dirtiest spell against Skaven he has. I think thats about his army list. I suppose the problem is he has enough shooting power to be a great pain to me, but enough choppy stuff to mess me up once i actually get into CC. Also, the hill neutralizes a lot of stuff i can as far as slave screens/warlock engineers going solo/weapons teams.

The sad thing is that's not even a competitive Dark Elf list. Don't worry about your opponent's build or what you're facing other than knowing the strenghts/weaknesses of each army. If you understand your army construction and play style, then you should be able to handle what the opponent throws at you.

Again, I can't emphasize enough - address your build and examine the efficacy of each unit you take. If you want to be a competitive player, evaluate your builds and tactics. However, if you're playing for the proverbial "for fun" - then keep doing what you're doing since it should be a fun game anyways.

Moreover - scratch the second illegal Umbanner and remember that the new edition allows your ratling guns/flame throwers to be hit by shooty and magic.

The first thing I noticed about your list? You're not taking all your heroes..... bad... bad doggy... errr ratty... Always take ALL of your heroes.... or atleast as many as you can. Heroes are invaluable and despite what has been claimed, the game is still Herohammer. Combat heroes make up for most of the unstatic CR for units, and magic heroes are devastating to the enemy.... when they're not blowing themselves up. I suggest taking a battle standard bearer and another engineer.... or you could take two engineers I suppose. To do this I suggest one of the following three options..... drop the storm vermin or make them normal clan rats..... OR drop the giant. Giants are fun, but a battle standard bearer and a engineer will be much more reliable for you, or you could drop the plague monks..... pick one, drop it, and get those heroes..... looking at your list, I'd suggest the giant..... Then you could always take more slaves or rat swarms, to protect your flanks and frontage, and then let him charge the worthless slave and rat swarms and counter charge with big blocks of skaven..... also.... a warp lightning cannon is always fun

Hmmm yea id really like to field a few ratswarms or another unit of slaves but unfortunately i dont have the models for it haha money is a problem. but yea i dunno it may not be a competitive DE list but he's quite good, we both do pretty well against all other people we play against but he's definitely giving me trouble as skaven. Also, I really dont think I'd consider taking another engineer as that is kinda cheesy... haha sometimes i feel bad even using one... 3D6 S5 hits...

@Trent - are you kidding me? Single model on foot is targetable now? Yep, weapon teams have too short of range to be worth anything but VP for your opponent now. I would not use them anymore.

Well, this is what I would do if I were you...

1. Make your cheiftan a BSB and give him Storm Banner...drop the weapon team to fund it. Storm Banner should considerably dampen his fire power (-2 shooting anyone).

2. Dump the Umbranner on the Plague Monks...its illegal to have two and your Storm Vermin are more fragil to shooting. I would also get rid of the Storm Vermin shields because halberd are 2 handed.

3. Split your Gutter Runners into two 3 rat tunnel teams and tunnel them under each Reaper Bolt Thrower.

4. Put Storm Daemon on your Warlock. Don't feel too bad about the effectivness of Warp Lightning because without weapon teams magic is the only reliable shooting option.  Chances are this Warlock won't live till the end of the game anyway (mine doesn't at least)...maybe if you have the points give warpstone charm too...maybe he will live longer.

The only thing I see that you really can't counter are his Dark Riders. Without weapon teams you need swarms to protect your flanks from them. I would recommend getting a hold of some monster bases and putting the rats that come with the clan rat boxes for your rat swarms. If his Dark Riders present themselves to your Warlock they should be targeted with extreme prejudice .

The battle plan would be to draw out the witch elves with slaves (he has to charge if he can). Then flank them with something else.