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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Hits on 3s. Where do you get 2s?

He has to be in a terminator unit to get Sustained, but with full rerolls and sustained...

3.5 * .306 * 2 * .306 * 2 = 1.3
3.5 * .582 * .306 * 2 = 1.2

2.5 average

Fury of the first rule gives the libby +1 to hit against an enemy unit selected with oath of moment.

 p5freak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Hits on 3s. Where do you get 2s?

He has to be in a terminator unit to get Sustained, but with full rerolls and sustained...

3.5 * .306 * 2 * .306 * 2 = 1.3
3.5 * .582 * .306 * 2 = 1.2

2.5 average

Fury of the first rule gives the libby +1 to hit against an enemy unit selected with oath of moment.

Gotcha - that doesn't change the MW math too much -

3.5 * .306 * 2 * .306 * 2 = 1.3
3.5 * .689 * .306 * 2 = 1.5

2.8

6 * .306 * 2 * .306 * 2 = 2.2
6 * .689 * .306 * 2 = 2.5

4.7

 p5freak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Hits on 3s. Where do you get 2s?

He has to be in a terminator unit to get Sustained, but with full rerolls and sustained...

3.5 * .306 * 2 * .306 * 2 = 1.3
3.5 * .582 * .306 * 2 = 1.2

2.5 average

Fury of the first rule gives the libby +1 to hit against an enemy unit selected with oath of moment.

We don't know if that's the case. They've not explained how or if unit abilities transfer to characters in those units. It could be a one-way thing where character abilities transfer but unit abilities don't. Also, even if they do hit on 2+ it's still not hugely devastating in average. The potential of something that needs to roll 3 6s in a row is not a potential anyone should be worried about.

Slipspace wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Hits on 3s. Where do you get 2s?

He has to be in a terminator unit to get Sustained, but with full rerolls and sustained...

3.5 * .306 * 2 * .306 * 2 = 1.3
3.5 * .582 * .306 * 2 = 1.2

2.5 average

Fury of the first rule gives the libby +1 to hit against an enemy unit selected with oath of moment.

We don't know if that's the case. They've not explained how or if unit abilities transfer to characters in those units. It could be a one-way thing where character abilities transfer but unit abilities don't. Also, even if they do hit on 2+ it's still not hugely devastating in average. The potential of something that needs to roll 3 6s in a row is not a potential anyone should be worried about.

Hitting on 2+ is relevant if you want to use Oath of the Moomins' reroll to fish for 6's to trigger Sustained & Devastating Wounds to convert the Damage to Mortal Wounds. That's high-risk-ish, uses your one OoM nomination, and still does not get you a great return on what is probably a pretty expensive combination of unit and character.

Unless you are trying to take on a tank, I don't really see the point in trying to max mortals.

 Tyran wrote:
Unless you are trying to take on a tank, I don't really see the point in trying to max mortals.

T5 4++ termies. More mortals will always be more better, but the cost of putting that effort in will be high so "choose wisely", because having two libbies within 24" of you OoM target while they need to be in units won't always be simple.

The new edition hasn't even launched, and the rules layering is already a problem.

I like the new morale system. I like that psychic powers are spread throughout other phases now.

Not loving the idea of pre-set psychic powers. Being able to choose what type of powers your psykers favor was a nice bit of character customization/flavor. My mortal wound farseer gives off very different vibes than my support farseer. Hopefully they've just presented it this way for simplicity and we won't see psykers going the way of the haemonculus (zero customization options.)

 oni wrote:
The new edition hasn't even launched, and the rules layering is already a problem.

That's kinda what it's looking like, isn't it?

 oni wrote:
The new edition hasn't even launched, and the rules layering is already a problem.

I don't think there's a problem yet. We're just seeing things from 10,000 feet.

After rereading everything I don't think characters get their own buff.

In the Character article is says "His Tactical Precision ability grants his subordinates Lethal Hits". The rules also both say "While this model is leading a unit, models in that unit have...".

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I like the new morale system. I like that psychic powers are spread throughout other phases now.

Not loving the idea of pre-set psychic powers. Being able to choose what type of powers your psykers favor was a nice bit of character customization/flavor. My mortal wound farseer gives off very different vibes than my support farseer. Hopefully they've just presented it this way for simplicity and we won't see psykers going the way of the haemonculus (zero customization options.)

I wouldn't be surprised to see psychic powers as enhancements. Psykers will have the default ones, and then instead of giving them a spicy gun or whatever you can give them Warp Time.

novembermike wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I like the new morale system. I like that psychic powers are spread throughout other phases now.

Not loving the idea of pre-set psychic powers. Being able to choose what type of powers your psykers favor was a nice bit of character customization/flavor. My mortal wound farseer gives off very different vibes than my support farseer. Hopefully they've just presented it this way for simplicity and we won't see psykers going the way of the haemonculus (zero customization options.)

I wouldn't be surprised to see psychic powers as enhancements. Psykers will have the default ones, and then instead of giving them a spicy gun or whatever you can give them Warp Time.

Possible. It's also possible that they change their mind (yet again) in the middle of the edition and release something like that old 'Dark Millenium' box with additional wargear, psychic powers and so on. I think their restraint is fine for the Index/get-you-by phase of all of this, but i'd be very suprised if it survived the first couple of codexes and supplements.

 oni wrote:
The new edition hasn't even launched, and the rules layering is already a problem.

Easy when you don't even have rules yet. Easy to have holes when you see just parts

Removed for rule 1.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Possible. It's also possible that they change their mind (yet again) in the middle of the edition and release something like that old 'Dark Millenium' box with additional wargear, psychic powers and so on. I think their restraint is fine for the Index/get-you-by phase of all of this, but i'd be very suprised if it survived the first couple of codexes and supplements.

I think detachments they do in codex will tackle that sort of stuff on it's own. Just swap detachments for difference enhancements that fit the bill.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I like the new morale system. I like that psychic powers are spread throughout other phases now.

Not loving the idea of pre-set psychic powers. Being able to choose what type of powers your psykers favor was a nice bit of character customization/flavor. My mortal wound farseer gives off very different vibes than my support farseer. Hopefully they've just presented it this way for simplicity and we won't see psykers going the way of the haemonculus (zero customization options.)

Probably pure fantasy - but hoping GW bite the bullet and just make the Haemonculus a "quasi-Psyker". (Aka a psyker for rules purposes).

But tend to agree with you. Farseers have a lot of iconic psychic powers - and I'm not totally sure how you'd represent that if you get a fixed loadout and that's it.
Tbf they could all be on the datasheet with some rule that you can only cast 2 a turn or whatever.

Arguably though this would apply to Weirdboyz and seemingly no.

Hate to say it, but given the way wargear options have progressed over the last few editions, I won't be surprised at all if picking your psychic powers is gone and psyker-heavy armies just divide up who gets which power(s).

novembermike wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to see psychic powers as enhancements. Psykers will have the default ones, and then instead of giving them a spicy gun or whatever you can give them Warp Time.

Wouldn't want a player to exceed the regulation amount of fun now, would we?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
The new edition hasn't even launched, and the rules layering is already a problem.

I don't think there's a problem yet. We're just seeing things from 10,000 feet.

After rereading everything I don't think characters get their own buff.

In the Character article is says "His Tactical Precision ability grants his subordinates Lethal Hits". The rules also both say "While this model is leading a unit, models in that unit have...".

On the other hand, by joining the unit he has become part of it for many purposes.

As tneva pointed out, though, we are looking at this without the complete set of rules, so I know I'm not worrying about it too much just yet.

 vipoid wrote:

novembermike wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to see psychic powers as enhancements. Psykers will have the default ones, and then instead of giving them a spicy gun or whatever you can give them Warp Time.

Wouldn't want a player to exceed the regulation amount of fun now, would we?

Given how much bloat was a complaint? Yes, probably.

More rules and less restrictions makes for a spectacle, but not necessarily a great game. 9th is a fun and fluffy system, but it is now terribly difficult to manage.

I am sad to lose much of my customizability, but I am excited to play a tighter game where everyone is having a good time rather than just those with enough time to process rules from all the new codexes each month or two. It is a sacrifice I am ok with given how much more interesting other aspects of the game seem to becoming.

 Dysartes wrote:
On the other hand, by joining the unit he has become part of it for many purposes.

As tneva pointed out, though, we are looking at this without the complete set of rules, so I know I'm not worrying about it too much just yet.

Yea, totally not stressed about it. I'm sure they'll call it out in the rules for joining units.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Given how much bloat was a complaint? Yes, probably.

I don't think people are complaining there being too many options of wargear to personalise your characters.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Given how much bloat was a complaint? Yes, probably.

I don't think people are complaining there being too many options of wargear to personalise your characters.

The fact we had pages of "options", and only a few were relevant, that's called bloat, so yes we do complain about it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

novembermike wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to see psychic powers as enhancements. Psykers will have the default ones, and then instead of giving them a spicy gun or whatever you can give them Warp Time.

Wouldn't want a player to exceed the regulation amount of fun now, would we?

Given how much bloat was a complaint? Yes, probably.

More rules and less restrictions makes for a spectacle, but not necessarily a great game. 9th is a fun and fluffy system, but it is now terribly difficult to manage.

I am sad to lose much of my customizability, but I am excited to play a tighter game where everyone is having a good time rather than just those with enough time to process rules from all the new codexes each month or two. It is a sacrifice I am ok with given how much more interesting other aspects of the game seem to becoming.

You can try to justify knighting it, but it's obvious that combining Combi-Weapons like this is terrible decision making.

Siegfriedfr wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Given how much bloat was a complaint? Yes, probably.

I don't think people are complaining there being too many options of wargear to personalise your characters.

The fact we had pages of "options", and only a few were relevant, that's called bloat, so yes we do complain about it.

Ah, but see, I never complained that there were too many options. I just complained that most of them were false options (read: underpowered). Getting rid of customizability gets rid of the "trap" of taking a subpar choice, but it doesn't help with what I originally wanted (which was to be able to give my units some personality by taking options that change the way they behave/fight.)

The 5th edition Dark Eldar codex is a decent case study for this. Your haemonculus could take several flavors of poison weapons, one of several single-use ranged weapons that were especially potent against different types of targets, and also had wonky options like the fleshgauntlet which was a "bad" melee weapon but would insta-kill a target if you got lucky or the mindphase gauntlet which didn't kill things well but could be used to take the teeth off of certain models/units while your friends did the killing.

So depending on what I wanted him to do, my haemi could be a beatstick, a support character, an assassin, or a delivery system for a tide-changing single-use attack. All those builds could give a haemonculus a different personality or change up how the unit played. Which was very appropriate for the mad scientist unit that spends all day figuring out how to bring whacky variety to harming others. Fluffy as heck. The only downsides were that a couple of the poison weapons were less good than the others, and the gauntlets were a little situational. But on the whole, I vastly preferred that approach to the haemonculus over the zero options version we have now.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Given how much bloat was a complaint? Yes, probably.

I don't think people are complaining there being too many options of wargear to personalise your characters.

That's what happened though. There's no way you can know all 15 of my possible traits on top of 27 spells and 6 pacts on top of 30 relics. Not to mention my 9 Cabal abilities and mountain of strats. And that's one book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
You can try to justify knighting it, but it's obvious that combining Combi-Weapons like this is terrible decision making.

I don't have to justify it. I just have to read this very forum over the past year.

Time and time again people complained about balance and were told that 40K has an absurd amount of variables, which makes it incredibly difficult. But no, GW is stupid / evil.

Lo and behold - we're getting things wrapped up in ways that allow balance to be more achievable.

Be careful what you wish for or what you complain about, I guess.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

novembermike wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to see psychic powers as enhancements. Psykers will have the default ones, and then instead of giving them a spicy gun or whatever you can give them Warp Time.

Wouldn't want a player to exceed the regulation amount of fun now, would we?

Given how much bloat was a complaint? Yes, probably.

More rules and less restrictions makes for a spectacle, but not necessarily a great game. 9th is a fun and fluffy system, but it is now terribly difficult to manage.

I am sad to lose much of my customizability, but I am excited to play a tighter game where everyone is having a good time rather than just those with enough time to process rules from all the new codexes each month or two. It is a sacrifice I am ok with given how much more interesting other aspects of the game seem to becoming.

You can try to justify knighting it, but it's obvious that combining Combi-Weapons like this is terrible decision making.

No, its just a decision you don't like.
We need a lot more context to judge it as 'terrible.' Or good.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Given how much bloat was a complaint? Yes, probably.

I don't think people are complaining there being too many options of wargear to personalise your characters.

That's what happened though. There's no way you can know all 15 of my possible traits on top of 27 spells and 6 pacts on top of 30 relics. Not to mention my 9 Cabal abilities and mountain of strats. And that's one book.

While bloat is definitely one of my current complaints, character options aren't really the part that bugs me. I find stratagems and doctrine-slot abilities way harder to keep track of and interact with. Giving a character a special ability or better statline always seemed like one of the better rules layers as it gave personality to the enemy characters and the rules were generally simple and static. Giving your warlord the ability to deny the witch because he has anti-psyker wards is simple and fluffy. Necrons/admech having 6 different special rules that show up for a single turn and then disappear is way harder for me to learn/plan around. That said, I'd prefer that warlord traits and relics and such just become options you purchase with points. Like exarch powers.

On the topic of psyhic powers, I'm really hoping they get rid of the restriction that a given power only be usable once per turn. Let both of the wyrd boyz jump around blast stuff. Let both of the warlocks conceal their squad. Let both of the Thousand Sons Sorcerers throw tzeentch fire around without needing to include a dozen versions of the same power in the codex to facilitate that.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
While bloat is definitely one of my current complaints, character options aren't really the part that bugs me. I find stratagems and doctrine-slot abilities way harder to keep track of and interact with. Giving a character a special ability or better statline always seemed like one of the better rules layers as it gave personality to the enemy characters and the rules were generally simple and static. Giving your warlord the ability to deny the witch because he has anti-psyker wards is simple and fluffy. Necrons/admech having 6 different special rules that show up for a single turn and then disappear is way harder for me to learn/plan around. That said, I'd prefer that warlord traits and relics and such just become options you purchase with points. Like exarch powers.

On the topic of psyhic powers, I'm really hoping they get rid of the restriction that a given power only be usable once per turn. Let both of the wyrd boyz jump around blast stuff. Let both of the warlocks conceal their squad. Let both of the Thousand Sons Sorcerers throw tzeentch fire around without needing to include a dozen versions of the same power in the codex to facilitate that.

They'll definitely be stuff that is 'purchasable'. I don't know if Enhancements will need CP or points. Points would be nice.

The spells appear to have their restriction built in. Only one Weirdboy can cast Da Jump per turn. Otherwise spells are free reign. I do imagine the more impactful ones like Doom will be restricted.

One nice thing about the Weirdboy is he can Da Jump and then snipe a character in the shooting phase with a massive S12 D7 shot ( provided he's with 30 boyz ). And given it's a shooting attack any other Weirdboy can also use their 'Eadbanger.

 oni wrote:
The new edition hasn't even launched, and the rules layering is already a problem.

Always expect the worst from a new GW rules system. Its broken by default.

 p5freak wrote:
Smite, a single weapon, can now, in theory, do 36 MW ? 12 shots with 3 MW each ? Am i understanding that correctly ?

No one else has followed your logic on this to get to the max damage.

Smite Focused Witchfire [DEVASTATING WOUNDS, SUSTAINED HITS 1 (while leading a unit)]

D6 shots roll a 6 = 6 shots.
6 hit rolls of 6 = 12 hits thanks to SUSTAINED HITS 1.
12 wound rolls of 6 = 12d3 wounds that bypass saves thanks to DEVASTATING WOUNDS.
12 d3 rolls of 3 = 36 damage.

I do wonder if you can be "leading a unit of just yourself" or if you actually have to be in a unit.

I'm interested to see what 5 Scarabs + a Scarab Terminator Sorcerer can do in 10th, feels like a cool little unit. On the comment about 6 man units being good for battleshock purposes, 5 mans with an attached leader will be just that.

I'm also interested to see the combined Force Weapon profile as I converted a pair with swords that were sent to legends mid 9th almost to the day I finished painting them.