Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Why does your Bolt Pistol fire as fast as a regular Bolter in Rapid Fire range, with better AP?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Why does your Bolt Pistol fire as fast as a regular Bolter in Rapid Fire range, with better AP?

Because the Commissar using the Bolt Pistol is really good with that weapon, less so with the Plasma Pistol. Just because a weapon has more attacks doesn't mean it has higher rate of fire. It means the user is able to take more meaningful shots with it. The game needs more instances where a weapon isn't exactly the same between two models because one user it just better with it than other users.

And before you say that is bunk, we already have instances of weapons were one model has slightly different rules than another. AS Dominions have Assault on 5 different weapons that are not Assault for Battle Sisters.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Why does your Bolt Pistol fire as fast as a regular Bolter in Rapid Fire range, with better AP?

Funnily enough, in 3rd edition pistols got to shoot twice if you remained stationary. Also, rapid fire only got one shot within half range if they moved.

 alextroy wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Why does your Bolt Pistol fire as fast as a regular Bolter in Rapid Fire range, with better AP?

Because the Commissar using the Bolt Pistol is really good with that weapon, less so with the Plasma Pistol. Just because a weapon has more attacks doesn't mean it has higher rate of fire. It means the user is able to take more meaningful shots with it. The game needs more instances where a weapon isn't exactly the same between two models because one user it just better with it than other users.

And before you say that is bunk, we already have instances of weapons were one model has slightly different rules than another. AS Dominions have Assault on 5 different weapons that are not Assault for Battle Sisters.

That can explain Rate of Fire... But not so much the AP.

And I find it unlikely that a Commissar is better with a Bolt Pistol than a Marine is, despite them getting one shot with their's.

Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Why does your Bolt Pistol fire as fast as a regular Bolter in Rapid Fire range, with better AP?

Because I don't agree with AP0 bolters even though I'm pretty sure AP0 Bolters and AP0 Bolt Pistols (my primary suggestion with the secondary "or even") are the same not more/less AP.
Because the difference between a rifle and a rifle cut down into a pistol is pretty much just max range

 JNAProductions wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Why does your Bolt Pistol fire as fast as a regular Bolter in Rapid Fire range, with better AP?

Because the Commissar using the Bolt Pistol is really good with that weapon, less so with the Plasma Pistol. Just because a weapon has more attacks doesn't mean it has higher rate of fire. It means the user is able to take more meaningful shots with it. The game needs more instances where a weapon isn't exactly the same between two models because one user it just better with it than other users.

And before you say that is bunk, we already have instances of weapons were one model has slightly different rules than another. AS Dominions have Assault on 5 different weapons that are not Assault for Battle Sisters.

That can explain Rate of Fire... But not so much the AP.

And I find it unlikely that a Commissar is better with a Bolt Pistol than a Marine is, despite them getting one shot with their's.

Commissars are characters. Standard Marines use Bolt Pistols as a backup weapon, either to Bolters or to supplement their melee weapons. I totally buy the Commissar being better with his Bolt Pistol than a non-character Marine.

But that isn't the point. The point is finding a way to make the Pistol options of a model side-grades rather than free upgrades.

This is a no brainer choice:

Laspistol [Pistol] 12", A 1, BS 4+, S 3, AP 0, W 1

Bolt Pistol [Pistol] 12", A 1, BS 4+, S 4, AP 0, W1

Plasma Pistol (Choose between: Standard [Pistol] A 1, 12", BS 4+, S 7, AP -2, W 1; Supercharge [Hazardous, Pistol] 12", A 1, BS 4+, S 8, AP -3, W 2)

This would be less so:

Laspistol [Pistol] 18", A 2, BS 4+, S 3, AP 0, W 1

Bolt Pistol [Pistol] 12", A 2, BS 4+, S 4, AP 0, W1

Plasma Pistol [Hazardous, Pistol] 12", A 1, BS 4+, S 7, AP -2, W 2

 alextroy wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Why does your Bolt Pistol fire as fast as a regular Bolter in Rapid Fire range, with better AP?

Because the Commissar using the Bolt Pistol is really good with that weapon, less so with the Plasma Pistol. Just because a weapon has more attacks doesn't mean it has higher rate of fire. It means the user is able to take more meaningful shots with it. The game needs more instances where a weapon isn't exactly the same between two models because one user it just better with it than other users.

And before you say that is bunk, we already have instances of weapons were one model has slightly different rules than another. AS Dominions have Assault on 5 different weapons that are not Assault for Battle Sisters.

The best (and traditional) way to represent that a particular model/unit is "better" at using a particular weapon is with a superior BS/WS.

Making weapons different "types" based on the particular model/unit using them is bizarre. A Garand doesn't suddenly become an SMG just because you give it to a SEAL instead of a basic infantrymen. It's still a rifle.

 Trickstick wrote:
Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

Or. . .

Imagine . . .

The Plasma Pistol cost a couple more points.

*mind blown*

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

Or. . .

Imagine . . .

The Plasma Pistol cost a couple more points.

*mind blown*

Except that's not the way GW is going. They want sidegrades, sidegrades everywhere. So boost the bolt pistol.

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

Or. . .

Imagine . . .

The Plasma Pistol cost a couple more points.

*mind blown*

Except that's not the way GW is going. They want sidegrades, sidegrades everywhere. So boost the bolt pistol.

You mean go stupid? Sure they can if they want. But I'm going to call it stupid.

^^^^^Same here, Insectum7.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

Or. . .

Imagine . . .

The Plasma Pistol cost a couple more points.

*mind blown*

Except that's not the way GW is going. They want sidegrades, sidegrades everywhere. So boost the bolt pistol.

You mean go stupid? Sure they can if they want. But I'm going to call it stupid.

I'm not sure it comes under stupid, it's simply that you either need points or you need parity of rules. They've done neither, that is stupid. Implementing either option is better.

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

Or. . .

Imagine . . .

The Plasma Pistol cost a couple more points.

*mind blown*

Except that's not the way GW is going. They want sidegrades, sidegrades everywhere. So boost the bolt pistol.

You mean go stupid? Sure they can if they want. But I'm going to call it stupid.

I'm not sure it comes under stupid, it's simply that you either need points or you need parity of rules. They've done neither, that is stupid. Implementing either option is better.

How do you do "parity of rules" between heavy bolters and lascannons? Sure, you can with the math, but it will never "feel right". Some items of wargear should always be upgrades. This isn't complicated. Other gw games designers get it. Why not the 40k designers?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

How do you do "parity of rules" between heavy bolters and lascannons? Sure, you can with the math, but it will never "feel right". Some items of wargear should always be upgrades. This isn't complicated. Other gw games designers get it. Why not the 40k designers?

By making it so you don't shoot them at the same things, which they've actually done pretty well.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

Or. . .

Imagine . . .

The Plasma Pistol cost a couple more points.

*mind blown*

Except that's not the way GW is going. They want sidegrades, sidegrades everywhere. So boost the bolt pistol.

You mean go stupid? Sure they can if they want. But I'm going to call it stupid.

I'm not sure it comes under stupid, it's simply that you either need points or you need parity of rules. They've done neither, that is stupid. Implementing either option is better.

How do you do "parity of rules" between heavy bolters and lascannons? Sure, you can with the math, but it will never "feel right". Some items of wargear should always be upgrades. This isn't complicated. Other gw games designers get it. Why not the 40k designers?

You answered it, you feth with the math, you make.it so a heavy bolter is as effective into infantry as a lascannon is into tanks. If you're telling me if doesn't "feel right" that a heavy bolter shouldn't be a valid anti-infantry weapon the same as a las cannon is anti-vehicle.

Dudeface wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

Or. . .

Imagine . . .

The Plasma Pistol cost a couple more points.

*mind blown*

Except that's not the way GW is going. They want sidegrades, sidegrades everywhere. So boost the bolt pistol.

You mean go stupid? Sure they can if they want. But I'm going to call it stupid.

I'm not sure it comes under stupid, it's simply that you either need points or you need parity of rules. They've done neither, that is stupid. Implementing either option is better.

How do you do "parity of rules" between heavy bolters and lascannons? Sure, you can with the math, but it will never "feel right". Some items of wargear should always be upgrades. This isn't complicated. Other gw games designers get it. Why not the 40k designers?

You answered it, you feth with the math, you make.it so a heavy bolter is as effective into infantry as a lascannon is into tanks. If you're telling me if doesn't "feel right" that a heavy bolter shouldn't be a valid anti-infantry weapon the same as a las cannon is anti-vehicle.

Still doesn't work right. Because "anti-infantry" includes: anti-light infantry, antii-medium infantry, and anti-heavy infantry. Hard to get al if those "right" while also making lascannons better at anit-tank. This "sidegrades" stuff just doesn't work in a game as expansive as 40k. We need points for these options.

Dudeface wrote:
I'm not sure it comes under stupid, it's simply that you either need points or you need parity of rules. They've done neither, that is stupid. Implementing either option is better.

There is no cost to points, the cost of parity of rules is an increase in conflict between the rules of the game and the narrative of the game. Points is the better option.

Voidblades + particle caster vs rod of covenant or gauss blasters vs tesla carbines, there is so little fluff for these weapons so GW can get away with trying to get rules parity and if they do that, great! 0 pts for either option. But if they fail then the better option should cost more pts. Both options being equally powerful is actually really nice because then if you're a Timmy and just want your Immortals or Triarch Praetorians to hit as hard as possible then either option will make you happy, great game design if GW has managed it. Bolt pistols and plasma pistols though? They are not on the same power level and should not be on the same power level.

An Overlord's voidblade using a warscythe profile? I'm actually okay with this, because we already had relic chainswords in 9th with insane profiles, my Overlord's voidblade being super enough to be equivalent to a warscythe, not that big a deal to me.

My first 10th edition went great, I had a lot of fun in a casual game, luckily my opponent decided to do random objectives same as me and didn't do a pachinko primary mission so we had a very reasonable game with both armies doing some cool things.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Getting to choose between a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol is a decision that has an objectively right and wrong choice

I would posit that's a problem with the bolt pistol itself and not the models or upgrade costs. Improve the bolt pistol to (probably) more shots in a Heavy Bolter vs Lascannon situation and its no longer objectively better. A bolt pistol with A2, S4, AP0 D1 or even AP -1 vs a A1 S7 AP-2 D1 is starting to turn into a choice requiring thought.

Why does your Bolt Pistol fire as fast as a regular Bolter in Rapid Fire range, with better AP?

Because the Commissar using the Bolt Pistol is really good with that weapon, less so with the Plasma Pistol. Just because a weapon has more attacks doesn't mean it has higher rate of fire. It means the user is able to take more meaningful shots with it. The game needs more instances where a weapon isn't exactly the same between two models because one user it just better with it than other users.

And before you say that is bunk, we already have instances of weapons were one model has slightly different rules than another. AS Dominions have Assault on 5 different weapons that are not Assault for Battle Sisters.

The best (and traditional) way to represent that a particular model/unit is "better" at using a particular weapon is with a superior BS/WS.

Making weapons different "types" based on the particular model/unit using them is bizarre. A Garand doesn't suddenly become an SMG just because you give it to a SEAL instead of a basic infantrymen. It's still a rifle.

Well the better stats can show the superior skill - in your example a highly skilled operator is going to be more effective than a raw recruit - you can show this with base stats and /or the profile of the weapon they are using - I donlt see that it matters which?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Could a Commissar have access to better ammunition than a standard trooper? Probably a stretch, but you can explain anything with enough stretching.

Or. . .

Imagine . . .

The Plasma Pistol cost a couple more points.

*mind blown*

Except that's not the way GW is going. They want sidegrades, sidegrades everywhere. So boost the bolt pistol.

You mean go stupid? Sure they can if they want. But I'm going to call it stupid.

I'm not sure it comes under stupid, it's simply that you either need points or you need parity of rules. They've done neither, that is stupid. Implementing either option is better.

How do you do "parity of rules" between heavy bolters and lascannons? Sure, you can with the math, but it will never "feel right". Some items of wargear should always be upgrades. This isn't complicated. Other gw games designers get it. Why not the 40k designers?

You answered it, you feth with the math, you make.it so a heavy bolter is as effective into infantry as a lascannon is into tanks. If you're telling me if doesn't "feel right" that a heavy bolter shouldn't be a valid anti-infantry weapon the same as a las cannon is anti-vehicle.

Still doesn't work right. Because "anti-infantry" includes: anti-light infantry, antii-medium infantry, and anti-heavy infantry. Hard to get al if those "right" while also making lascannons better at anit-tank. This "sidegrades" stuff just doesn't work in a game as expansive as 40k. We need points for these options.

But they took clear steps towards it, when a heavy bolter can reasonably pop off light infantry with more shots, lower S which with higher T on vehicles and better saves on Elites means it doesn't gank them. Then have a Plasma cannon for heavy infantry but fewer shots with limited damage to stop it taking out vehicles outside eof the lightest and mulching small infantry due to lower shots. Then lascannon with single shot, higher strength, ap and damage so its going to be notably more likely to do more damage to a vehicle and be utterly wasted against smaller targets.

The concept is simple enough, it's as about as complicated as pricing the obviously better options to a place that any option is viable.

Dudeface wrote:
But they took clear steps towards it, when a heavy bolter can reasonably pop off light infantry with more shots, lower S which with higher T on vehicles and better saves on Elites means it doesn't gank them. Then have a Plasma cannon for heavy infantry but fewer shots with limited damage to stop it taking out vehicles outside eof the lightest and mulching small infantry due to lower shots.

well, the Plasma Cannon has Blast so it likely gets more shots vs hordes than the Heavy Bolter. HÖWEVER, the Heavy Bolter has D2 so it might be a better idea to turn it against heavy infantry and trust on (a somewhat meager) weight of fire to much through saves and such because if it goes through it pops (unlike the Plasma Cannon that needs to go Hazardous or stay D1).

 AtoMaki wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
But they took clear steps towards it, when a heavy bolter can reasonably pop off light infantry with more shots, lower S which with higher T on vehicles and better saves on Elites means it doesn't gank them. Then have a Plasma cannon for heavy infantry but fewer shots with limited damage to stop it taking out vehicles outside eof the lightest and mulching small infantry due to lower shots.

well, the Plasma Cannon has Blast so it likely gets more shots vs hordes than the Heavy Bolter. HÖWEVER, the Heavy Bolter has D2 so it might be a better idea to turn it against heavy infantry and trust on (a somewhat meager) weight of fire to much through saves and such because if it goes through it pops (unlike the Plasma Cannon that needs to go Hazardous or stay D1).

That's in itself a good example of balancing out profiles and purposes though. Just because a lascannon is higher strength/ap/damage it doesn't have to be "the best" and therefore cost more.

Dudeface wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
But they took clear steps towards it, when a heavy bolter can reasonably pop off light infantry with more shots, lower S which with higher T on vehicles and better saves on Elites means it doesn't gank them. Then have a Plasma cannon for heavy infantry but fewer shots with limited damage to stop it taking out vehicles outside eof the lightest and mulching small infantry due to lower shots.

well, the Plasma Cannon has Blast so it likely gets more shots vs hordes than the Heavy Bolter. HÖWEVER, the Heavy Bolter has D2 so it might be a better idea to turn it against heavy infantry and trust on (a somewhat meager) weight of fire to much through saves and such because if it goes through it pops (unlike the Plasma Cannon that needs to go Hazardous or stay D1).

That's in itself a good example of balancing out profiles and purposes though.

It would be if the HB had an actual purpose.

Dudeface wrote:
That's in itself a good example of balancing out profiles and purposes though. Just because a lascannon is higher strength/ap/damage it doesn't have to be "the best" and therefore cost more.

You're forgetting the choice not to take one. You shouldn't have to pay for options you aren't using, only the ones you are.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
That's in itself a good example of balancing out profiles and purposes though. Just because a lascannon is higher strength/ap/damage it doesn't have to be "the best" and therefore cost more.

You're forgetting the choice not to take one. You shouldn't have to pay for options you aren't using, only the ones you are.

That is valid, but I'd expect a game wide side-grade-o-rama to change marines to 5 +1heavy/special as a mandatory for example.

Which again reinforces the sheer confusing poophole they made by not seeing any one option through.

Just had my first 10th edition game last night - Custodes vs Demons. Greater Demon spam is going to be a real problem for many armies. I was completely wiped out by the end of the 3rd turn and only managed to kill 1 nurgling base...

People keep on saying Lascannons are better than Heavy Bolters. I've run the numbers for an IG Heavy Weapon Squad against a variety of Targets and the one thing that GW actually got right was parity between a Lascannon and a Heavy Bolter:

3 Lascannons (Stationary) vs:

Leman Russ: Damage 3.00 with variance of 3.53

Rhino: Damage 3.75 with variance of 3.82

Space Marine: Damage 2.08 with variance of 1.65

Guardsman: Damage 1.25 with variance of 0.85

3 Heavy Bolters (Stationary) vs:

Leman Russ: Damage 0.67 with variance of 1.15

Rhino: Damage 2.00 with variance of 1.97

Space Marine: Damage 4.00 with variance of 2.75

Guardsman: Damage 3.33 with variance of 1.74

And there you have it. Even into medium Infantry like a Space Marine (T4, S 3+, W 2), a Heavy Bolter is better into Infantry while a Lascannon is better into Tanks/Monsters. The math will get different once you move up to Heavy Infantry like Terminators or Gravis Marines, but those are little tanks anyway

 alextroy wrote:

And there you have it. Even into medium Infantry like a Space Marine (T4, S 3+, W 2), a Heavy Bolter is better into Infantry while a Lascannon is better into Tanks/Monsters.

I'm not really feeling it. 1 extra marine or guardsman biting the dust is not exactly something I would unironically consider a benefit over being able to slap around a tank or other big meanie.

That's 1 Space Marine or 2 Guardsmen

But it is the effect beyond the average that is very important.

The Lascannons have a 72% chance of killing 1 Space Marine and a 28% chance of killing 2.
The Heavy Bolters Have a 86% chance of killing 1 Space Marine, a 60% chance of killing 2, and 32% chance of killing three.

The Lascannons have a 80% chance of killing 1 Guardsmen and a 38% chance of killing 2.
The Heavy Bolters have a 97% chance of killing 1 Guardsmen, a 86% of killing 2, a 66% chance of killing 3, a 43% of killing 4, and a 24% chance of killing 5.

Discounting the variance in favor of the average is a great way of getting caught out during game. I know the high-level 40K players make their decision based on the lower side of the variance rather than the average.

So the question is are you fighting tanks or fighting hordes? The Lascannon is great against tanks and crap into hordes. The Heavy Bolter is great into hordes but crap against tanks. Bring the right tool.