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Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
TIL that Eldar are an unloved NPC race despite having powerful codices and top tier army builds for all of the last decade.

I guess no longer being the favored child hurts.

Again, not nearly as many powerful codices, builds and gross tournament performances as Chaos over the very same decade.

https://www.40kstats.com/

Check the 2019 results - Asuryani have the highest win rate in faction and mono faction. Renegade knights are the first chaos entry at 4th. in the top 15 by faction win rate, there are all 4 eldar factions, there are 2 chaos out of 5 in the same bracket.

I'll admit I CBA to work out how to get the pivot table to match for 2020 but harelquins have a higher win rate than any chaos faction, but the rest of them are literally side by side.

Stop driving an incorrect narrative that chaos crap on eldar. A decade ago playing chaos was essentially a joke, they've become viable as a soup faction needing 4-5 books in the last 3 years.

What incorrect narrative? Did Chaos not smash Adepticon, Gentleman's GT and many others in 2019. What did Eldar win? A few RTTs ? Great! Was the Jim Vesal-mania just my imagination?

And again, it's not accounting 2018 with Bash Brothers and Poxwalker spam winning major tournaments (admittedly Nids taking the top crown that year), and Maelific Lords cleaning house in late 2017, after Screamerstars won Adepticon and all other big tournaments just prior to the release of 8th. And before that Bel'akor. And before that Lash of Submission. And, and, and.



Sure, spikes in win rates (as shown on 40Kstats) happen. Space Marines are currently very good (and were even better in the last quarter of 2019). But seen consistently over 10-ish years, Space Marines have rarely been top dog, and certainly not consistently. Neither have Eldar, or Knights or Custodes or 5th Ed. Grey Knights some of those flash-in-a-pan armies that win a lot of tournaments for a month or so due to an oversight. Consistently over a long period (at the very least 6th to 8th), no army comes even remotely close to Chaos.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
TIL that Eldar are an unloved NPC race despite having powerful codices and top tier army builds for all of the last decade.

I guess no longer being the favored child hurts.

Again, not nearly as many powerful codices, builds and gross tournament performances as Chaos over the very same decade.

https://www.40kstats.com/

Check the 2019 results - Asuryani have the highest win rate in faction and mono faction. Renegade knights are the first chaos entry at 4th. in the top 15 by faction win rate, there are all 4 eldar factions, there are 2 chaos out of 5 in the same bracket.

I'll admit I CBA to work out how to get the pivot table to match for 2020 but harelquins have a higher win rate than any chaos faction, but the rest of them are literally side by side.

Stop driving an incorrect narrative that chaos crap on eldar. A decade ago playing chaos was essentially a joke, they've become viable as a soup faction needing 4-5 books in the last 3 years.

What incorrect narrative? Did Chaos not smash Adepticon, Gentleman's GT and many others in 2019. What did Eldar win? A few RTTs ? Great! Was the Jim Vesal-mania just my imagination?

And again, it's not accounting 2018 with Bash Brothers and Poxwalker spam winning major tournaments (admittedly Nids taking the top crown that year), and Maelific Lords cleaning house in late 2017, after Screamerstars won Adepticon and all other big tournaments just prior to the release of 8th. And before that Bel'akor. And before that Lash of Submission. And, and, and.

And were ynnari not the boogeymen for the bulk of 8th, aren't shining spears and dark reapers the units that everything gets measured by? (Honourable mention to intercessors and guardsmen as also being yard sticks)

Please find me 4th, 5th and 6th edition tournaments where chaos won them, or even came top 3. In 7th the only thing you can mention is screamer star. You're short on ammunition.

Dudeface wrote:


And were ynnari not the boogeymen for the bulk of 8th, aren't shining spears and dark reapers the units that everything gets measured by? (Honourable mention to intercessors and guardsmen as also being yard sticks)

Please find me 4th, 5th and 6th edition tournaments where chaos won them, or even came top 3. In 7th the only thing you can mention is screamer star. You're short on ammunition.

Ynnari were pretty good for a while, sure.

So what did they win? One super-major with the 2018 LVO (with Chaos overtaking them right away two months later at the 2018 Adepticon), whereas Chaos won dozens of GTs, Majors and Supermajors.

Again, Ynnari were good and a decent "bridesmaid" army for a while. But never even at their worst where they close to Chaos.

And for those pre-7th Chaos wins, there're plenty. Eg.: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/40k-three-peat-fateweaver-wins-adepticon.html. , https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-the-unbeatable-list-the-adepticon-winning-army.html , Etc..

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


And were ynnari not the boogeymen for the bulk of 8th, aren't shining spears and dark reapers the units that everything gets measured by? (Honourable mention to intercessors and guardsmen as also being yard sticks)

Please find me 4th, 5th and 6th edition tournaments where chaos won them, or even came top 3. In 7th the only thing you can mention is screamer star. You're short on ammunition.

Ynnari were pretty good for a while, sure.

So what did they win? One super-major with the 2018 LVO (with Chaos overtaking them right away two months later at the 2018 Adepticon), whereas Chaos won dozens of GTs, Majors and Supermajors.

Again, Ynnari were good and a decent "bridesmaid" army for a while. But never even at their worst where they close to Chaos.

Hold up here's 2017's pre 8th results:

The list combines all the top events for the 2017 ITC season, taking only the top three winners from Major or GT events.

7 Eldar
5 Daemon
3 Space Marines
3 Dark Angels
1 Renegades
1 Tau Empire
1 Imperial Knights

Oh look who's top.

Total top 3 lists for 8th:

https://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

Oh look pure craftworlds had more top 3 than any chaos lists.

Dudeface wrote:

Total top 3 lists for 8th:

https://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

Oh look pure craftworlds had more top 3 than any chaos lists.

But Screamstars always took home the money on all the big stuff. Eldar (Ynnari at their 7th Edition worst with unlimited soul burst per phase, even in the opponents turn, etc.., which was admittedly whack) = Bridesmaid, Chaos = Bride.


https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/03/40k-the-unbeatable-list-adepticon-2017.html

 Kirasu wrote:
I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).

They are 1 unit, but definitely 13 kits - in the sense that making the additional 12 still requires time for GW to develop and produce.

If we assume three unique poses for a typical box set that's four box sets of new models (i.e. updated aspect warriors) worth of time. It adds up.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Again, not nearly as many powerful codices, builds and gross tournament performances as Chaos over the very same decade.

Skipping 2nd ed at nothing was balanced, 3e had the eldar and chaos fighting for top cheese with starcannon spam and CSM 3.5, 4e has to ultimately go to eldar for unkillable skimmer spam, 5e missed both factions, 6e goes to the taudar despite some early helldrake action as does 7th despite screamerstar, renegades and heretics (LVO 2017) - eldar had multiple years where they'd occupy half or more of the top 10 positions at big tournaments.

8e they've both had their moments. How 9th treats them is yet to be seen.

A.T. wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).

They are 1 unit, but definitely 13 kits - in the sense that making the additional 12 still requires time for GW to develop and produce.

If we assume three unique poses for a typical box set that's four box sets of new models (i.e. updated aspect warriors) worth of time. It adds up.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Again, not nearly as many powerful codices, builds and gross tournament performances as Chaos over the very same decade.

Skipping 2nd ed at nothing was balanced, 3e had the eldar and chaos fighting for top cheese with starcannon spam and CSM 3.5, 4e has to ultimately go to eldar for unkillable skimmer spam, 5e missed both factions, 6e goes to the taudar despite some early helldrake action as does 7th despite screamerstar, renegades and heretics (LVO 2017) - eldar had multiple years where they'd occupy half or more of the top 10 positions at big tournaments.

8e they've both had their moments. How 9th treats them is yet to be seen.

My thanks to you and your memory, I didn't play 2nd and my experience of 3rd didn't involve eldar but that does line up with my experiences as well.

In short I think going into 9th it'll be much the same, the craftworld eldar codex is looking better than any individual chaos codex, although DG and TS have done well out of it.

A.T. wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).

They are 1 unit, but definitely 13 kits - in the sense that making the additional 12 still requires time for GW to develop and produce.

If we assume three unique poses for a typical box set that's four box sets of new models (i.e. updated aspect warriors) worth of time. It adds up.

Prior to Indomitus(which brings the Lieutenant with Storm Shield+Volkite Pistol into play and he is on his own sprue), there had only been 11 sculpts for "Lieutenant" tagged models. Out of those 11, three are subfaction specific(Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Dark Angels Lieutenant, Blood Angels Lieutenant) with a fourth one arguably intended to be subfaction specific(the Lieutenant that got introduced in Wake the Dead has more iconography that twigs with the Ultramarines than the other generic Lieutenants). Out of those 11, three were exclusives(1 event exclusive[the 500th store model], 1 was a Made to Order model, and the last one was region locked initially but is part of the Conquest subscription service). Out of those 11, three were locked on sprues shared with other models(the Phobos LT with Grav-Chute is on the sprue that got brought with Shadowspear while the Power Sword+Bolt Pistol and the MC Bolt Rifle were in Dark Imperium). There are two generally available(Reiver LT and WTD LT) that are generic.

Said it before, saying it again. The nonsense about there being so many Primaris Lieutenants is just that. People find things to complain about when it comes to Marines.

 Kanluwen wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).

They are 1 unit, but definitely 13 kits - in the sense that making the additional 12 still requires time for GW to develop and produce.

If we assume three unique poses for a typical box set that's four box sets of new models (i.e. updated aspect warriors) worth of time. It adds up.

Prior to Indomitus(which brings the Lieutenant with Storm Shield+Volkite Pistol into play and he is on his own sprue), there had only been 11 sculpts for "Lieutenant" tagged models. Out of those 11, three are subfaction specific(Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Dark Angels Lieutenant, Blood Angels Lieutenant) with a fourth one arguably intended to be subfaction specific(the Lieutenant that got introduced in Wake the Dead has more iconography that twigs with the Ultramarines than the other generic Lieutenants). Out of those 11, three were exclusives(1 event exclusive[the 500th store model], 1 was a Made to Order model, and the last one was region locked initially but is part of the Conquest subscription service). Out of those 11, three were locked on sprues shared with other models(the Phobos LT with Grav-Chute is on the sprue that got brought with Shadowspear while the Power Sword+Bolt Pistol and the MC Bolt Rifle were in Dark Imperium). There are two generally available(Reiver LT and WTD LT) that are generic.

Said it before, saying it again. The nonsense about there being so many Primaris Lieutenants is just that. People find things to complain about when it comes to Marines.

Yes, it's a meme, but somebody still had to sculpt all of those, design them, produce them and whilst I agree about the semantics of when a marine release is not a marine release; (see appendix Deathwatch, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels). There have still been 11 of them. I'd rather have seen 6 (2 generic and 1 each for the alt. chapters) and a new box of warp spiders. Or Tankbusta's. Or Grotesques. Or Kroot variants. Or Valhallans. Or Berserkers. Or Cultists. Or Guardians. etc. etc. Maybe I'm just advocating for the multipose options back, so we don't need every variant of Lieutenant sculpted singly, but it does kinda smart, as those lieutenant releases have been alongside a slew of other Primaris releases.

There, I can't believe I've said it. Essentially; I'd be happy with a 6 to 1 Primaris vs Xenos release schedule.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Said it before, saying it again. The nonsense about there being so many Primaris Lieutenants is just that. People find things to complain about when it comes to Marines.

and still required resouces, in design and production, that could be used on other factions instead

just because there are only 2-5 left to buy does not mean that GW did not made them instead of somethinbg else

Problem is that counting "event only" models as full releases is disingenuous.

It leads to this kind of nonsense where I can claim that Catachans have seen more releases this year than the actual Guard did in the past few years.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Problem is that counting "event only" models as full releases is disingenuous.

It leads to this kind of nonsense where I can claim that Catachans have seen more releases this year than the actual Guard did in the past few years.

I mean, that's not inaccurate, but only because guard have gotten...basically nothing but special release models. IIRC, it was the female commissar, the catachan sarge lady, marbo, and the catachan commander.

A whole bunch of factions got basically nothing in an edition where we had 50+ new marine SKUs. That's the point. You're not refuting it by pointing out how comically few releases another faction got.

Whether GW decides to make a model limited run and sells a bunch using FOMO or whether they add it to their model catalog permanently is irrelevant to the fact that it took the same production/design time and mold investment that another model of the same size could have taken.

Severina Raine, Sly Marbo, Sergeant, and the Colonel(whose availability numbers suggest that he was going to be the store anniversary model for this year rather...but since they can't host those, they shifted it over to independents for auctions or whatever) are the Guard models that have been released most recently. Two are resin, two are plastic.
Something that Goodwin/Latham said in regards to the designing the Indomitus Marines made it sound like the event models are generally just extraneous designs that they didn't feel the general release stuff needed or were just "cool" designs leftover.

And I'm not attempting to"refute" anything. I'm saying that it is dumb to complain about how "tHeRe'S sO mAnY LiEuTeNaNts!1!!" all the time. 11(12 when Indomitus releases) models, with 3 faction specifics, 3 box exclusives(4 when Indomitus releases), and 3 event/regional exclusives...leaving two as general releases.

You want a bunch of models locked on sprues with easy build models? Event or regional exclusives? Have frigging at it!
I'd rather see general release models for everyone's factions.

With the leaks out now stating if GW doesn’t currently make a model it is moving to legends: how many FW items are being moved into legend status?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
With the leaks out now stating if GW doesn’t currently make a model it is moving to legends: how many FW items are being moved into legend status?

Going by the lack of points, at the very least Chaplain Dreads, Renegades & Heretics, and the last remnants of Eldar Corsairs. I wouldn't be surprised if Guard eventually lost Conquerors and Destroyer Tank Hunters, too.

I think the topic and The defensive players arguing how space marines are not special snow flakes has run its course.

It’s been pretty apparent since warhammer was created space marines were always the favorite child... there isn’t any point arguing about it for 5 pages.

Here’s a relevant question... does anyone have the new fw index in hand? Heck does anyone have the actual CA in hand and not just the point spreadsheet?

I suspect a ton of those one offs are Aluminum molds. Which means you get far fewer runs out of them though. Not suited for a general release model. Cheaper and faster to mill, far shorter lifespan. Faster cycle time too. Each run would take less time than making the same model as a general release miniature.

Its entirely possible all those one off characters didn't cost a single general release model. More probably all of them together cost one or two general release models.

Justyn wrote:
I suspect a ton of those one offs are Aluminum molds. Which means you get far fewer runs out of them though. Not suited for a general release model. Cheaper and faster to mill, far shorter lifespan. Faster cycle time too. Each run would take less time than making the same model as a general release miniature.

Its entirely possible all those one off characters didn't cost a single general release model. More probably all of them together cost one or two general release models.

But the biggest time investment wouldn't be the milling of the mold but the design of the model which of course would be faster then a other characters as they probably have a master file for Primaris which they just add things too but still not only 1-2 general releases

 Kanluwen wrote:
Severina Raine, Sly Marbo, Sergeant, and the Colonel(whose availability numbers suggest that he was going to be the store anniversary model for this year rather...but since they can't host those, they shifted it over to independents for auctions or whatever) are the Guard models that have been released most recently. Two are resin, two are plastic.
Something that Goodwin/Latham said in regards to the designing the Indomitus Marines made it sound like the event models are generally just extraneous designs that they didn't feel the general release stuff needed or were just "cool" designs leftover.

And I'm not attempting to"refute" anything. I'm saying that it is dumb to complain about how "tHeRe'S sO mAnY LiEuTeNaNts!1!!" all the time. 11(12 when Indomitus releases) models, with 3 faction specifics, 3 box exclusives(4 when Indomitus releases), and 3 event/regional exclusives...leaving two as general releases.

You want a bunch of models locked on sprues with easy build models? Event or regional exclusives? Have frigging at it!
I'd rather see general release models for everyone's factions.

Lieutenants are nice easy single sprue options for various purposes, but they were so limited on wargear between all the unique sculpts that it was wasted potential. At least every captain model has a unique load out so far.

Once dark imperium goes out fully, it would be nice if GW made a command squad box with a couple lieutenant torsos with like 10 different weapon arms, add an ancient and champion to fill it out.

Once dark imperium goes out fully, it would be nice if GW made a command squad box with a couple lieutenant torsos with like 10 different weapon arms, add an ancient and champion to fill it out.

It makes sense. Probably should have been done first. You might draw some ire for suggesting more Marine models though.

Anybody remember btw what GW released week after 8th ed? Wondering what will be announced for preorders this week. Any chance of first 9th ed codex?

(mainly hoping for 40k initial deluge to calm down enough for elves to get individual releases. The sooner first codex or two are out the sooner elves might appear)

tneva82 wrote:
Anybody remember btw what GW released week after 8th ed? Wondering what will be announced for preorders this week. Any chance of first 9th ed codex?

(mainly hoping for 40k initial deluge to calm down enough for elves to get individual releases. The sooner first codex or two are out the sooner elves might appear)

Looking at the June 2017 White Dwarf there was the goblin team for Blood Bowl and the Skirmish rules for Age of Sigmar along with the 40K releases (no exact dates in the magazine that I can see).

We're likely looking at 2nd splash waves for Primaris and Necrons over the next few months, coupled with codexes I'd wager.

Necron likely first. I am looking forward to whatever narrative driven release driver we'll have for 9th. I hope Eldar and Ork play a part being also old one born.

But we also have the stylistic hive tendrils approaching terra on the LE rulebook so who knows...

tneva82 wrote:
Anybody remember btw what GW released week after 8th ed? Wondering what will be announced for preorders this week. Any chance of first 9th ed codex?

(mainly hoping for 40k initial deluge to calm down enough for elves to get individual releases. The sooner first codex or two are out the sooner elves might appear)

If I remember correctly, the Space Marine codex came out about a month after 8th edition launched.

tneva82 wrote:
Anybody remember btw what GW released week after 8th ed? Wondering what will be announced for preorders this week. Any chance of first 9th ed codex?

(mainly hoping for 40k initial deluge to calm down enough for elves to get individual releases. The sooner first codex or two are out the sooner elves might appear)

I suspect we are going to get some kind of starter set soon. We know there are several easy to built kits that had points listed in CA that are not available yet. I suspect that is coming soon.

I also think the Necron Codex and release will be in August sometime. So much has been revealed now that I can't expect it will be in September. SM will be out in August or September as well.


I think there will be some kind of break, since we are missing the Sons of Behemet and the Warcry Warbands. We may even see some previews for those this Sunday.

Warcry warbands won't be announced this sunday 100% sure. That would put preorder for 25.7 and as warhammer community revealed august is month for new warcry warbands(and for GW it's the preorder date that determines month).

Wish GW did roadmap for all games and not just warcry...

What can they possibly add in a Necron codex to make necron players required to purchase it?

They are getting all the points in both the app and CA, datasheets for the new models in Indomitus

And FAQs for all 8th edition codex to bring them up to 9th rules plus all the 8th books are on the app for free including szera...

They have to add at least some niche 1-2 pages of stuff so people buy the book. New strats, relics, traits, etc or whatever new 9th edition tacked on rules...

It has to be more then just that terrain piece. My guess is there is at least 1 more model not shown.

gungo wrote:
What can they possibly add in a Necron codex to make necron players required to purchase it?

The Silent King and that funky terrain come to mind, plus the new C'Tan Shard. And the leaked pics have a bunch of other models that are NOT in Indomitus.

It will have new stratagems, make your own dynasty rules, the new Void Dragon, the Silent King, likely new rules for the new Monolith and it has been hinted that new Reanimation rules.

Also probably a Doctrine equivalent.

App you will either need to be subscriber to get army builder or buy codex to get code to unlock codex. And ca points aren"t neccessarily same as codex points.

Plus changes to old datasheets, new and dropped stratagems etc.