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2009/08/17 20:51:06
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
I'd say that is broadly true, having done a quick bit of research into UK stats.
Of course, healthcare costs are naturally concentrated into the early and late years, because in developed nations humans who survive infancy, tend to live until they die of old age.
It doesn't remove the basic point that US healthcare costs double what UK, Japanese, Canadian, or French (etc.) does.
You can imagine that the USA is the only country which does medical research (you only need to spend 30 seconds on Google to see that it isn't true.) Or you can look for another cause of the costs.
You're difficulty will be finding accurate similar data from the same pool. Plenty of countries limit those payments. The US also has sub pools-public vs. private spending-and types of public spending, which is relevant to a more subtle analysis.
KK's R&D point: Indeed we’re not. However there are demonstrable studies denoting substantially higher expenditures in that area.
Of equal relevance but not discussed (further tied to the above) is IP regulations. US IP protections for drug patents are substantially better, at least than Canada. This both fosters higher R&D, but also increases relevant costs here. This is supported by both studies and personal experience. Mom was able to get drugs from Canada at substantially cheaper rates than the US, until it was blocked by the US government at the insistence of same companies. (bastardoes!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/17 21:01:47
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2009/08/17 20:58:39
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
I will say this, what's the last contribution a european person has given to medical science?
We have the artificial heart, use of anesthesia, and invention of MRIs.
Another reason why it costs more over here is that american hospitals have more MRI, CAT scan, and other equipment than their european counterparts and we have more access to tests using these.
Do we pay more, yes but we also have more.
2009/08/17 21:02:42
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
halonachos wrote:I will say this, what's the last contribution a european person has given to medical science?
We have the artificial heart, use of anesthesia, and invention of MRIs.
Another reason why it costs more over here is that american hospitals have more MRI, CAT scan, and other equipment than their european counterparts and we have more access to tests using these.
Do we pay more, yes but we also have more.
Don't forget our absulute and incontrvertable dominance in the processed foods industries.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2009/08/17 21:05:26
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
halonachos wrote:
Another reason why it costs more over here is that american hospitals have more MRI, CAT scan, and other equipment than their european counterparts and we have more access to tests using these.
Do we pay more, yes but we also have more.
More isn't always better. There's this thing called excess supply which has a way of massively increasing costs inside a closed system with an inelastic demand curve.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2009/08/17 22:43:13
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
This isn't pure econocmis and supply/demand Dogma.
More increases the quick accessibility thereof. The quick accessibility is relevant to catching conditions quickly.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2009/08/17 22:49:34
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
How does an excess supply increase the cost in a closed system with an inelastic demand curve?
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
2009/08/17 23:07:54
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
The core of this whole health debate is people that cannot afford standard health insurance. Medi-care is totally whack, regardless of what anecdotal evidence you can provide, I have met and talked to enough people to understand this simple point. It is not a cure-all, and in fact the amount of coverage state by state appears to be drastically different.
What in god's name do those fancy instruments do for the majority of people that A.) cannot afford them no way no how, and/or B.) sure they can afford them, but Bankruptcy is basically the name of the game for most people at that point.
I honestly believe in a single-payer system is the best way to counter this problem. Coming up with loose fixes and half-assed corner cutting will not get nearly far enough to close the social gap in the U.S. This rift in our culture is bound to be the biggest issue facing our nation. It is not an issue of race (though it does play a large part) rather an issue of the haves and have-nots. Fortunately the scales have tipped so extremely far that not only are the poor feeling this, but the middle classes are as well. As soon as this country realizes that we are all in the same boat, we are utterly bound to failure as long as no serious action is taken to remedy it. Three-ish centuries and reclining onto a slump already. Not more than two decades ago there was still serious activism, now that has been replaced by fear-mongering "truthers" who are able to recruit so many young people because no one is there to inform them otherwise. So at the point which this country denies any help to anyone without piles of cash, we fail, and fail hard we will. Prophecy or history in the making?
If your philosophy of medicine is based on the access to high-tech machinery for a handful of people, you must have at least one or two screws loose in the grand scheme of things.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/08/17 23:14:26
2009/08/17 23:16:07
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
Orkeosaurus wrote:How does an excess supply increase the cost in a closed system with an inelastic demand curve?
In a closed system excess supply can't be liquidated, if it could be the system wouldn't be closed, or the supply wouldn't be excess (I'm referring to excess supply as that component of supply which must be sold at an aggregate loss). In order to recoup losses the company who produced the excess supply will increase prices. These prices will be paid because demand in inelastic. That's the simple version, anyway.
Of course, there's no such thing as a completely closed system, and this doesn't necessarily apply to the US healthcare industry at all. However, it is an example of how the possession of more of any given thing can inhibit access to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/17 23:20:01
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2009/08/17 23:20:28
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
"We made like 1000 of these apples... hmm, how on earth are we going to turn a profit on these?"
"Well Bob, I think I have the answer, just charge ridiculous amounts of cash to use the machine so you can make sure you turn profits within the year... yeah the stock-holders will think that is AB-FAB!"
"Ted... what about the poor?"
"Bob... don't mess with me like that..."
2009/08/17 23:28:21
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
dogma wrote:In a closed system excess supply can't be liquidated, if it could be the system wouldn't be closed, or the supply wouldn't be excess (I'm referring to excess supply as that component of supply which must be sold at an aggregate loss). In order to recoup losses the company who produced the excess supply will increase prices. These prices will be paid because demand in inelastic. That's the simple version, anyway.
Of course, there's no such thing as a completely closed system, and this doesn't necessarily apply to the US healthcare industry at all. However, it is an example of how the possession of more of any given thing can inhibit access to it.
Ah, I see. That makes sense.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
2009/08/18 00:26:55
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
halonachos wrote:I will say this, what's the last contribution a european person has given to medical science?
We have the artificial heart, use of anesthesia, and invention of MRIs.
That would be anasthetic which was used in europe for several centuries before the USA existed then, and then used by people like Joseph priestley and Humphru Davy in the UK well before use in the USA would it ?
The work on MRI heavily involved te work of several British researchers, including many from the fine labs at Nottingham.
As for general european contributions to medical science : how about penicillin, or the work of Jenner ?
............is this really the level of "debate" we've been lowered to ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2009/08/18 00:56:59
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
Poking holes the size of my pinky in a plan the size of plan that can be so gracefully compared to an overweight whale is petty to say the least. The evidence of the absolute and utter need for serious change is completely apparent to anyone that does fair research without the intent to disrupt the whole goddam class.
Apologies but this type of ridiculous "kindergarten politics" is what has ans continues to destroy this countries ideals. The reasons for this are long and proven, but it will continue until the "rationals" stand up en masse and say SFTU...
*End transmission*
2009/08/18 03:16:43
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
I do believe you mean stfu, but I want to play another ball game.
The anesthetic was used for "laughing gas" parties. Hardly a medical advancement. If your latest discovery is penicillin (which a large number are allergic to and has been mainly replaced) then you are a backwards nation.
And yes I am in this for the lol's now.
2009/08/18 03:29:56
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
2009/08/18 03:33:05
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
Wow, who knew that so many U.S. citizens were so very very afraid of socialism. *Raises hand*
In the long run the only thing stopping this change from taking place is the amount of money in congress being pumped in by corporate interests. I call it downright criminal, but the law does say different.
None of these anti-health care points add up to anything besides poking people DIRECTLY in the eye, all in attempts to scare them straight.
OH NO THE CHANGE IS COMING!
Regardless of how I personally feel about it, things are going to change in some way. Furthermore it stands to reason that the lower classes in the U.S. are actually learning to think together instead of bicker over petty nonsense. If things are moving in the direction that I hope they are, nothing is going to stop this change.
The whole "death panel" really sealed the deal for me, the only problem is that most people know that it is an outright lie; at best a slowed interpretation.
Long live the home of the melting pot, by the stars we sit under I hope that this whole situation can work out for the best, and the petty low-brow politics will be squished into an undefinable paste .
"Hello my family, we welcome you into the united socialist front!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/18 03:38:44
2009/08/18 03:42:19
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
halonachos wrote:So backwards it should be Eporue.
That's what I'm calling it from now on.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/08/18 03:59:34
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
2009/08/18 03:56:16
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
"Hello my family, we welcome you into the united socialist front!"
That looks eastern european. If you go back to the cold war, they were, well you know, kind of like... communists... not to rain on your parade or anything.
2009/08/18 04:01:16
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
halonachos wrote:I will say this, what's the last contribution a european person has given to medical science?
We have the artificial heart, use of anesthesia, and invention of MRIs.
Another reason why it costs more over here is that american hospitals have more MRI, CAT scan, and other equipment than their european counterparts and we have more access to tests using these.
2008 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Harald zur Hausen (German), Francoise Barre Sinoussi (French) and Luc Montagnier (French)
2007 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Mario R. Capecchi (Italian), Martin J Evans (UK), Oliver Smithies (UK)
2006 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Andrew Z Fire (US) and Craig C Mello (US)
2005 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Barry Marshall (Australian) and J Robin Warren (Australian)
2004 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Richard Axel (US) and Linda B Buck (US)
2003 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Paul C Lauterbur (US) and Peter Mansfield (UK)
2002 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Sydney Brenner (South African), H Robert Horvitz (US), John E Sulston (UK)
2001 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Leland H Hartwell (US), R Timothy Hunt (UK) and Paul M Nurse (UK)
2000 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Arvid Carlsson (Sweden), Paul Greengard (US) and Eric Kandel (Austrian)
1999 Nobel Prize for Medicine, given to Gunter Blobel (German).
So that's ten years of Nobel prizes, awarded to a total of 24 people. Of those 24 people you have 8 from the US, 13 from Europe and and 3 from elsewhere in the world. Your assertion that no medical advancements occur outside of the US is utterly false.
Do we pay more, yes but we also have more.
No. You have less. In terms of quality of healthcare you are ranked 37th, behind Slovenia. You are paying 50% more than anyone for the 37th best healthcare. If I walked into a car dealer and he showed me a car that cost 50% more than anything else on the market and declared this is the 37th best car around, I would not buy that car.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2009/08/18 05:47:30
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
The Nobel prizes were invented by Snaeporue, so you can't trust them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/08/18 05:49:11
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
2009/08/18 05:47:49
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
I'm pretty sure it was God who invented America, dogma.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
2009/08/18 06:06:06
Subject: The role of personal responsibility in the health care debate
Wrexasaur wrote:Damn sebster, you took way to long to bring the punch to my funny .
Ohhh.... it stings good chappie, it stings.
Sorry, was away for the weekend. What's with all the durr things now?
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
.
