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KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's what I figure. Pretty sure those other 12 movies and like 1,000 TV shows never happened. Delete them all from your memory.
What about alternate timeline is hard to understand? Star Trek has numerous alternate timelines. Mirror Universe says hello? The original series and film franchises are still valid, its just that we now have another timeline where events are unfolding.
Ahtman wrote:It isn't a question of whether they can be well done or not, but that it seems to be a plot they fall back on to easily and to often. This is Star Trek, not Time Trek, after all. Still, City on the Edge of Forever is probably one of the best episodes, and Trials and Tribble-ations was really well done.
Best line in the whole op, OBrien " There's klingons here? Where? Worf what happened?"
Vulcan wrote:And a Heavy Cruiser doesn't sound militant at all?
What's classed as a heavy cruiser?
The Constitution and later Enterprise class Heavy Cruisers. You know, the original starships?
Don't forget that the Excelsior was considered a Battleship.
Sure, they had extensive scientific facilities. They are still run on military lines, with extensive weaponry. They are military ships, with a strong exploration function.
This is very different than, say, the 20th-21st century U.S. Navy, with designated warships, and unarmed survey and research vessels (a la the Trieste and the TR-1).
KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's what I figure. Pretty sure those other 12 movies and like 1,000 TV shows never happened. Delete them all from your memory.
What about alternate timeline is hard to understand? Star Trek has numerous alternate timelines. Mirror Universe says hello? The original series and film franchises are still valid, its just that we now have another timeline where events are unfolding.
That's a parallel dimesion (nerd fight!). If you alter a timestream is should be...altered.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/02 21:57:07
The Enterprise D is/was a more diplomatic oriented ship with a greater civilian crew than the other. The original and the E were both combat ships with exploration capability. You'll notice they had no civilians and as well as doing combat patrols and the like. Well, the E was only in films, but it was designed as a heavy anti-Borg warship if I recall.
I still haven't figuered out if alternate timeline means it is rewriting everything, or if it is a splinter universe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/02 22:04:54
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
They make it clear in the movie that it has spawned a new series of events, not that it has overwritten what has already happened (of course then rises the question of why we bother at all with the temporal prime directive but that's just part of the inconsistency that is the time travel episodes).
The Defiant Class, Akira Class, and the Sovereign Class were all designed as combat ships (aka warships) as a direct result of contact with the Borg. The Dominion War only furthered the militarization of Star Fleet designs (the Prometheus has that Multi-Vector Assault mode whose only possible purpose would be combat).
LordofHats wrote:They make it clear in the movie that it has spawned a new series of events, not that it has overwritten what has already happened (of course then rises the question of why we bother at all with the temporal prime directive but that's just part of the inconsistency that is the time travel episodes).
The Defiant Class, Akira Class, and the Sovereign Class were all designed as combat ships (aka warships) as a direct result of contact with the Borg. The Dominion War only furthered the militarization of Star Fleet designs (the Prometheus has that Multi-Vector Assault mode whose only possible purpose would be combat).
Well that's good....but doesn't make sense but time travel usually doesn't. How do they make this clear?
The Sovereign and Akira may be De Facto Warships (don't know if Sovereigns have civilians on them) but not officially. The Defiants are officially Warships.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/02 22:18:36
LordofHats wrote:They make it clear in the movie that it has spawned a new series of events, not that it has overwritten what has already happened
They make it clear that a new series of events, but it is not stated that they are not overwriting the old continuity. Obliviously they are new events, but that is going to be true with either option.
It doesn't really matter much, as the idea of Star Trek canon* is laughable since it changes frequently, and is often not becuase of story reasons either.
*I generally find the idea of 'canon' in merchandised media to be problematic, not just in Star Trek. That is another thread though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/02 22:22:04
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote:I still haven't figuered out if alternate timeline means it is rewriting everything, or if it is a splinter universe.
It has to be a splinter universe.
If it wasn't, then newSpock will have the knowledge about Nero wanting to destroy Vulcan and will be able to stop him. But, if he stops him, then he'll never go back in time and newnewSpock won't have the knowledge and Nero will go back in time and newnewnewSpock...
Ahtman wrote:I still haven't figuered out if alternate timeline means it is rewriting everything, or if it is a splinter universe.
It has to be a splinter universe.
I doubt it has to be anything.
Grakmar wrote:If it wasn't, then newSpock will have the knowledge about Nero wanting to destroy Vulcan and will be able to stop him. But, if he stops him, then he'll never go back in time and newnewSpock won't have the knowledge and Nero will go back in time and newnewnewSpock...
That is if we assume that that is how fictional time travel works, when it doesn't always work that way, or at all since it is, you know, fictional.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/02 22:36:23
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote:I still haven't figuered out if alternate timeline means it is rewriting everything, or if it is a splinter universe.
It has to be a splinter universe.
If it wasn't, then newSpock will have the knowledge about Nero wanting to destroy Vulcan and will be able to stop him. But, if he stops him, then he'll never go back in time and newnewSpock won't have the knowledge and Nero will go back in time and newnewnewSpock...
It definately diverged when Eric Bana came out of no where and blasted Kirk's dad. According to normal logic that would change everything that came after it which is everything except "Enterprise". However, they may be using some kind of star trek Quantum Logic where it like....splits into two timelines...or something.
It happens in the scene where they're discussing it (right after Vulcan is destroyed) using almost those exact words I believe. They specifically mention the word "parallel."
The Sovereign and Akira may be De Facto Warships (don't know if Sovereigns have civilians on them) but not officially. The Defiants are officially Warships.
Officially the Federation has no warships, even the Defiant isn't called one despite obviously being one. Likewise, its fairly obvious what the Sovereign and Akira classes were designed to do (How else are you going to justify 15 torpedo tubes?). Then there's Prometheus, which is so obviously a warship its silly to suggest otherwise. It's like calling a tank a combat car... Oh wait, the US Cavalry got away with one.
Of course this factors into the mess that is Star Trek canon. The names Sovereign and Akira don't even appear in any of the filmed media but are the accepted names for the classes (Sovereign I think appears in later ST films but the class had already been named by then within the continuity).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/03/02 23:11:43
There's a reason for this. Gene Roddenberry didn't like war. He was a utopian, big on the wonders of exploration. But then he died and the other writers decided it was time to break out the warships and giant galactic wars to go with them.
If you guys like Star trek so much, Star Trek online went free to play back in Jan, Some people like it, some don't think it "feels" like trek but its free to play so give it a shot
STO is worth a run if you've never tried it. Not the greatest game ever made but as Star Trek goes its pretty good. Its pretty fun for the run to max level, but thats about it. There's actually some really really well done fan content in the game as well thanks to the Foundry and you can really get your nerd on
There's a reason for this. Gene Roddenberry didn't like war. He was a utopian, big on the wonders of exploration. But then he died and the other writers decided it was time to break out the warships and giant galactic wars to go with them.
Roddenberry's utopic vision is a little over optimistic. Its great and all but it gets boring fast, and even in TOS there was war and conflict. The difference was that it wasn't glorified to the extent you'd see in other media, and I'd argue that to an extent all the Star Treks maintained the idea that war isn't something positive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/03 15:55:18
Of course Rodeenberry's Utopia was overly optimistic. It was a friggin' Utopia. Originally, war only ever used to illustrate how silly war was. Guys with one side of their face white fighting guys with the other side of their face white.
But in DS9 war was used to entertain us. It got pretty grimdark there.
I've already said the Dominion War is one of my favorite story archs so it doesn't really matter to me but it should be noted that Gene Roddenberry never would have wanted something like that.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Of course Rodeenberry's Utopia was overly optimistic. It was a friggin' Utopia. Originally, war only ever used to illustrate how silly war was. Guys with one side of their face white fighting guys with the other side of their face white.
But in DS9 war was used to entertain us. It got pretty grimdark there.
I've already said the Dominion War is one of my favorite story archs so it doesn't really matter to me but it should be noted that Gene Roddenberry never would have wanted something like that.
Well war is easier to write then Drama.
I actually really liked the dominion war, it showed how dark the feddies could get. I loved 'In the pale moonlight' one of my favoret eps ever. Then again any episode with Garak in it was Ace. =o]
Hard to pick a favorite episode. I loved all the Klingon-heavy episodes, especially "Redemption" for the scenes on the Klingon home planet (warriors from either side of a recent battle meeting, drinking, and having a good time before going back to killing one another). Also, Data-as-captain is a fun subplot even if Romulan-Tasha-Yar is a stupid one. That said, I'll have to go with "Schisms" for bringing us Data's Ode to Spot.
TNG episode Conspiracy was quite fun - it's not too often they do gross-out on a Trek series; that exploding head scene was a surprise! I don't think the idea that something could be deeply wrong within the Federation would be present until DS9s Dominion war.
I loled when I watched Conspiracy for the first time last year. I can't believe that episode actually aired on national tv in the 80s.
Darmok was innovative, but I didn't care for it that much. It beat your over the head with its message and hearing Darmok a thousand times in under an hour was annoying as feth.
