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purplefood wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

How about a world dominated by no-one?

Killing, lots and lots of killing (Middle East) or not (South America).

At what point do we reach lots and lots of killing?

When we hit the level of a nice European or Middle Eastern bloodbath. We need bombs, and tanks, and great armies clashing, massed flying drop bears, cats and dogs living together, CHAOS UTTER CHAOS!!!

Or one short Corsican. (No Santa Anna doesn't count).

Didn't he get his arse handed to him?

Which one (oh wait thats a yes to both).

"You will settle for blood. I want Texas." Houston, restraining fellow Texicans, on the capture of General Santa Anna, found in a private's uniform.


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To be fair, I think Frazzled is a persistent troll

I am just an advocate for truth, justice, and rights of mountain lions to be free from percsecution by naked British people.


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Barksdale wrote:A safer place? What a joke.

Just one minor example I guess they just forgot to mention:

The deaths of thousands of civilians during the cluster bombing campaign in Laos and other countries in southeast asia. All in the name of freedom and democracy I suppose?

There is still a very serious problem here with unexploded ordnance from that era. Thanks America!

How'd that Pol Pot thing work out? Yep. USA was evil all right...


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Bromsy wrote:I do think that people who say that without the US, Europe would be speaking German are a little silly. As Sebster pointed out, they would be speaking Russian.

Agreed. Most of Asia however, would still be speaking Japanese.

Trondheim wrote:

Barksdale wrote:A safer place? What a joke.

Just one minor example I guess they just forgot to mention:

The deaths of thousands of civilians during the cluster bombing campaign in Laos and other countries in southeast asia. All in the name of freedom and democracy I suppose?

There is still a very serious problem here with unexploded ordnance from that era. Thanks America!

I agree with this, And I think there are several Latin American countries that has few good things to say about US involment, Chille is a good exampel on this point.

Interesting. Sitting right next to my computer is a really nice carved wood note holder given to me by a Chilean colonel at the end of a combined exercise we participated in back in the 90's. It seemed we got along pretty well at the time.

Frazzled wrote:[quote=

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Barksdale wrote:A safer place? What a joke.

Just one minor example I guess they just forgot to mention:

The deaths of thousands of civilians during the cluster bombing campaign in Laos and other countries in southeast asia. All in the name of freedom and democracy I suppose?

There is still a very serious problem here with unexploded ordnance from that era. Thanks America!

How'd that Pol Pot thing work out? Yep. USA was evil all right...

Actually, Pol Pot was in Cambodia. Thanks for pointing out another example though. There is a wide consensus among historians that the US carpet bombing campaign let to a tremendous increase in support for the Khmer Rouge regime. USA wa evil all right...

Barksdale wrote:

Frazzled wrote:[quote=

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Barksdale wrote:A safer place? What a joke.

Just one minor example I guess they just forgot to mention:

The deaths of thousands of civilians during the cluster bombing campaign in Laos and other countries in southeast asia. All in the name of freedom and democracy I suppose?

There is still a very serious problem here with unexploded ordnance from that era. Thanks America!

How'd that Pol Pot thing work out? Yep. USA was evil all right...

Actually, Pol Pot was in Cambodia. Thanks for pointing out another example though. There is a wide consensus among historians that the US carpet bombing campaign let to a tremendous increase in support for the Khmer Rouge regime. USA wa evil all right...

Again, if you're not speaking Japanese, thank an American.

Frazzled wrote:
Again, if you're not speaking Japanese, thank an American.

Odds are, even if Japan had conquered and secured all of South East Asia, they wouldn't want their new territories adopting Japanese culture. Second-class citizenship would be more likely than learning Japanese.

Frazzled wrote:Again, if you're not speaking Japanese, thank an American.

And I do thank the United States for their service to the world during WW2 and prior. Post WW2, however, I have to say the country's proposed values, freedom capitalism and democracy, have deviated significantly from reality. This is especially the case today...

Barksdale wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Again, if you're not speaking Japanese, thank an American.

And I do thank the United States for their service to the world during WW2 and prior. Post WW2, however, I have to say the country's proposed values, freedom capitalism and democracy, have deviated significantly from reality. This is especially the case today...

Thats our values for us. I could give a about yours.

SilverMK2 wrote:Some of the comments on that page are just crazy. Is it not possible to have different views without automatically hate all that the other person holds dear?

FFS...

Anyway, I think the world would be a better place if the USA sent out armies of teachers, builders and doctors rather than soldiers.

As long as they are trained to shoot at the bastards shooting at them/their charges, I 100% agree.

sebster wrote:
I would make the argument that a political and economic system that makes it an act of rational self-interest to work to improve the freedom and liberty available in other countries is a great system, and one that, in the case of the USA, has greatly improved the overall welfare of the world.

Sure, but that's a fairly recent idea. Historically we haven't been above looking the other way regarding issues of democracy and human rights when it has suited us.

Bromsy wrote:I do think that people who say that without the US, Europe would be speaking German are a little silly. As Sebster pointed out, they would be speaking Russian.

No, the Wermacht would have crushed the Red Army without overt US aid.
Even in 1945 75% of Soviet trucks were American.
Even taking away that Soviet infrastructure would have been impossible without US aid, the thread of invasion in Western Europe/Italy tied up a huge amount of German troops. If Germany could have concentrated all their forces on the Soviet Union in 1942 they would have smashed the Russians.

You're ignoring so many factors in the war its amazing.

By the time lend lease and supplies to the Soviets really kicked off the Germans had failed to take Moscow and their campaign into Russia was probably already lost. By the time D Day opened a legit second front for the Germans to deal with (in 1944), Germany was in such dire straits that they no longer had any real hope of winning. The best they could hope for was a truce at that point.

Only about 23% of America's aid to the Allies went to the USSR and Allied aid to the USSR did four things; it supplied them vital goods, it allowed them to focus their production on other goods (esp. tanks), it allowed them to commit more manpower to the front, and it hastened the end of Germany. It is debatable as to whether or not the USSR could have won without Allied effort, but to say they certainly would have lost without American effort is false.

Frazzled wrote:

Barksdale wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Again, if you're not speaking Japanese, thank an American.

And I do thank the United States for their service to the world during WW2 and prior. Post WW2, however, I have to say the country's proposed values, freedom capitalism and democracy, have deviated significantly from reality. This is especially the case today...

Thats our values for us. I could give a about yours.

You know Fraz, I was expecting an intellectual debate with someone like you. I couldn't have been more wrong. I guess you really are a socialist who likes to bail out large corporations with taxpayer money and keep suspects under arrest without trial in offshore jails while supporting puppet governments with no claim to power if it were not for the US military.

Sucks to be you man.

Real Americans have real values and want to share these with the rest of the world. Not this bull your type is trying to sell to everyone. Your values for yourself my . Seriously man, listen to yourself. Shameful.

Amaya wrote:You're ignoring so many factors in the war its amazing.

By the time lend lease and supplies to the Soviets really kicked off the Germans had failed to take Moscow and their campaign into Russia was probably already lost.

Whoops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Blue
I have no idea how many men the Germans had in the West, not how much their industrial capacity suffered as a result of allied bombing.
I suggest you try out Hearts of Iron 2 for an idea of how divided Germany's strength was in having to garisson Western Europe, Italy, the African campaign, Norway et al.

Barksdale wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Barksdale wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Again, if you're not speaking Japanese, thank an American.

And I do thank the United States for their service to the world during WW2 and prior. Post WW2, however, I have to say the country's proposed values, freedom capitalism and democracy, have deviated significantly from reality. This is especially the case today...

Thats our values for us. I could give a about yours.

You know Fraz, I was expecting an intellectual debate with someone like you. I couldn't have been more wrong. I guess you really are a socialist who likes to bail out large corporations with taxpayer money and keep suspects under arrest without trial in offshore jails while supporting puppet governments with no claim to power if it were not for the US military.

Sucks to be you man.

Real Americans have real values and want to share these with the rest of the world. Not this bull your type is trying to sell to everyone. Your values for yourself my . Seriously man, listen to yourself. Shameful.

Must have hit a nerve. Oh wait, you're went off about the US being evil after bombing Laos. Lets look at what happened in South East Asia after we left. Pol Pot, re-education camps, massed exodus of people fleeing. But e're the bad guys. I think I understand where you stand as well.

Did you even read the entire article?

Edit: The Kursk Offensive is the best example of how depleted the German forces were. It was their last major offensive and it was launched in 1943. When it failed, Germany was on the defensive for the remainder of the war and doomed to a slow death.

reds8n wrote:

Poppabear wrote:I would much rather a Chinese run world then an American. Lol I also cant wait to see some guy quote this and say. LOL DERP AMERICA #1, how can China run a world better then us!

Cause they can... they just can. And they don't want to commit terrorism to 1/3 of the world...

just my two say.

Do you think the people of Tibet would agree with you here ?

According to a UN report, "The Chinese occupation of Tibet has been characterised by acts of murder, rape and arbitrary imprisonment; torture and cruel, inhuman and degraded treatment of Tibetans on a large scale. The number of Tibetans killed after the Chinese occupation -- a period marked by torture and starvation -- now exceeds a million. According to a document captured by the guerrillas fighting the Chinese army, 87,000 deaths were recorded in Lhasa between March 1959 and September 1960. More than 6,000 monasteries, their belongings -- the priceless jewels of Tibetan culture, precious Thangka paintings and other valuable documents were destroyed by the Chinese army."

And this is what you think will be better than what we have now yes ?

I honestly could almost say the same thing about the American "occupation" of Afghanistan and Iraq.

lo, I'm sick of talking about this stuff, makes my blood pressure go through the roof.

You could say that, but you would be wrong.

actually no. The only reason you think I'm wrong is because you refuse to get off your high horse and won't admit America's occupation in the middle east is and will be and absolute travesty. AND YES, there have bin cases of U.S Marines/Army Soldiers raping, torturing, murdering, inhuman acts against the Afghans and Iraqis, who in fact did nothing to arm the Soldiers.

And in those cases the perps were tried and punished.

Can you say the same for the Chinese in Tibet?

Poppabear wrote:AND YES, there have bin cases of U.S Marines/Army Soldiers raping, torturing, murdering, inhuman acts against the Afghans and Iraqis, who in fact did nothing to arm the Soldiers.

Citation?

There have been a very few, isolated incidents. But, the perpetrators have faced punishment.

Isolated cases yes there have been.

And there 's been some terrible incidents and far too many deaths, don't think many people are disputing that.


... and ? Cause you'll note in the vast majority of these cases the people who've done this are locked up and it's quite clear that this isn't what we want done or doing there.

Just as it is wrong to claim that Muslims are evil murderous so and so's because some -- a very small minority thankfully -- commit terrible deeds it is also wrong to claim that the actions of a small minority of soldiers somehow means that they are all like that.

But you appear to be seriously claiming that the official policy of the USA govt,, enacted through the medium of its own and allied armed forces, continuing through two directly opposed Presidential offices, is the persistent and irreversible eradication of the indigenous inhabitants of the region through a policy of murder, rape and ethnic cleansing.

Because that is what China's policy is with regards to Tibet.

It's frankly laughable to suggest that America, and its allies who are or have been fighting there as well, wish to carry out genocide given the policies and actions that have been used. Take a look at the pictures of Dresden and the like from WW II. Now add in another 70 years of technological advancement and total control of the airspace and think what America on its own to do to Iraq/similar if they really wanted or needed to. There's a lot of jokes and macho BS about "bombing X/Y/Z back to the stone age". Which, for a variety of reasons, not least the fact that the leaders of America and its military commanders aren't in fact characters from Black Library novels -- as well, of course, due to things like a ( fairly) free press that we have, something else there isn't in China -- and therefore aren't warped pyschopaths .. ( well... alright maybe Karl Rove I'll give you ) out to drown the world in blood, hasn't happened.

But they've definitely got the means.

Hell technically the entire area could well be an irradiated wilderness populated only by radioactive cockroaches for the next X thousand years.

While Tibet and Afghanistan are both serious problems, but comparing the two shows a fundamental understanding of the issues involved in either. For starters the US doesn't claim that Afghanistan is part of the United States. We have a presence there whereas China has a full blown occupation that dwarfs our force projection.

Is America a force for good in the world? I guess so.... Some of the most evil people around like Osama, Sadam and Pol Pot owed their success to the US. And the US is not shy about installing or proping up a dictator if it suits them but still look at the alternatives. The Soviet Union, The People's Republic of China, Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan. Churchill said America will always do the right thing after they've exhausted all other possibilites. That's still more than can be said for those other guys.

reds8n wrote:
Just as it is wrong to claim that Muslims are evil murderous so and so's because some -- a very small minority thankfully -- commit terrible deeds it is also wrong to claim that the actions of a small minority of soldiers somehow means that they are all like that.

That minority, especially in Iraq, is unfortunately much larger than you might think. Much in the way a lock only keeps an honest man honest Iraqis that thought they could get away with it began to kidnap their neighbors, torture them, kill them, and dump them in the streets. A bare fraction of the perpetrators in the murderous spree that the media dubbed "sectarian violence" were ever caught and punished. If you can imagine your Catholic or Jewish neighbors dragging you out of your house, or picking your child up off the streets (for the sole crime of being say a Protestant) and taking you to the local police station to hook you up to a car battery and cut swathes of your flesh off; you are about half way to one day on the streets of Baghdad in 2006. The amount of "extra judicial killing" in just Baghdad and it's outlying suburbs was staggering. Large scale intervention by US forces set back plans to turn over other areas to Iraqi governmental or even just local control back by years. I know you weren't defending or attacking the merits of any particular group, but while it's all well and good to say that people are tortured, raped, and killed in Iraq and blame America, but you have to look at who was doing a majority of the torturing, raping, and killing. Blaming America for what Iraqis do is like blaming Michael Bloomberg for every burglary, assault, rape, murder, and card game in New York.

Frazzled wrote:America has made the world freer, safer and wealthier

Of course it has, just look at the oil prices, economic recession and that whole situation with Iran and North Korea.

I feel all warm and tingly inside every time I think about all the ways that the American interventions in the past 10 years have made the world a better place...

What are you talking about? Gas is so cheap, they are talking about giving it away some days, and Iran and North Korea, gak we just had a BBQ with them last week.

Joey wrote:

Bromsy wrote:I do think that people who say that without the US, Europe would be speaking German are a little silly. As Sebster pointed out, they would be speaking Russian.

No, the Wermacht would have crushed the Red Army without overt US aid.
Even in 1945 75% of Soviet trucks were American.
Even taking away that Soviet infrastructure would have been impossible without US aid, the thread of invasion in Western Europe/Italy tied up a huge amount of German troops. If Germany could have concentrated all their forces on the Soviet Union in 1942 they would have smashed the Russians.

I gave you the numbers of wartime production that showed the overwhelming advantage the Soviets held. You ignored this, in order to repeat your own little factoid again.

You want to be ignorant? Be ignorant. But don't fething do it here.