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Veteran Sergeant wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).

LOL! Didn't even consider that.

That does make me wonder though how well Non-Caucasians are represented in 40K.

I do recall a few Japanese members of the Guard and the Adeptus Arbites in a few fluff stories but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Ultimately, racial qualities are going to be bred out of the human race. Considering the fact that many scientists think redheads will be mostly extinct in 75-100 years, in 38,000 years, chances are everyone is going to be a light-medium tan.

And now isolate a million different human populations on a million different planets for 10,000 years. There's still going to be incredible diversity, if not outright speciation (see Ratlings and Ogryns). Regardless, I personally find it kind of offensive that they don't even bother to try to represent diversity in their models except through outright mutants like the Salamanders. It's insensitive AND boring. Maybe that kind of thing flies better in Britain.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Yeah, however they were disbanded if my memory serves. So if you want to be pedantic, yes there were male SoB, once, but not anymore. Also, I will assume that you've accepted the other part of my argument.

Not really, I've only been halfway reading the thread (taking this topic seriously is never a sign of sanity). What other part?

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[snip]

Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.

I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.

You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[snip]

Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.

I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.

You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.

I'm still waiting for you to cite a source in support of your statement.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
And now isolate a million different human populations on a million different planets for 10,000 years. There's still going to be incredible diversity, if not outright speciation (see Ratlings and Ogryns). Regardless, I personally find it kind of offensive that they don't even bother to try to represent diversity in their models except through outright mutants like the Salamanders. It's insensitive AND boring. Maybe that kind of thing flies better in Britain.

Its probably not so much insensitivity rather than a matter of market share.

That would be some interesting stats to see - outside of the Western world, where is Warhammer 40K played?

Given the prohibitive cost - much of the developing world is already out of the picture.

Melissia wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Yeah, however they were disbanded if my memory serves. So if you want to be pedantic, yes there were male SoB, once, but not anymore. Also, I will assume that you've accepted the other part of my argument.

Not really, I've only been halfway reading the thread (taking this topic seriously is never a sign of sanity). What other part?

So you don't care (or at least, you're pretending not to) but only when it suits you? Gotcha.
Personally I find the debate thread to be interesting (especially when it involves such a hotly-contested topic!).

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

It's interesting at times, but other times it's just the same old rehashed hash that was being rehashed from its rehashed can of rehashed hash ten years ago.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

They don't take steroids for height increase. It's part of the geneseed cocktail of organs, I believe it overrides the pituitary and leaves the "keep growing" switch on longer than the body normally would during puberty, same as gigantism. You probably wouldn't need an extra organ to do it though, you could just administer the proper hormone, but whatever.

Wow, so the geneseed cocktail causes an increase in Growth hormone from the Anterior Pituitary?

I'm surprised, IRL this would cause acromegaly since bones are actually "sealed" from the effects of the hormone in adults.

In children it would just cause Gigantism.

I don't know if it stimulates the pituitary or it supplants it, or if it uses this method at all, this is just my conjecture. But if I was going to make a space marine, that's how I would do it, and it does fit the fluff. Hence the exact reason pubescent children are used rather than adults to make space marines. Gigantism is the exact effect they want. Anyway gigantism in and of itself is not fatal, it's the side effects like over-stressing your organs. Which is why I rate induced gigantism and a secondary set of vital organs as a totally plausible method for making a superhuman soldier.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).

LOL! Didn't even consider that.

That does make me wonder though how well Non-Caucasians are represented in 40K.

I do recall a few Japanese members of the Guard and the Adeptus Arbites in a few fluff stories but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Ultimately, racial qualities are going to be bred out of the human race. Considering the fact that many scientists think redheads will be mostly extinct in 75-100 years, in 38,000 years, chances are everyone is going to be a light-medium tan.

And now isolate a million different human populations on a million different planets for 10,000 years. There's still going to be incredible diversity, if not outright speciation (see Ratlings and Ogryns). Regardless, I personally find it kind of offensive that they don't even bother to try to represent diversity in their models except through outright mutants like the Salamanders. It's insensitive AND boring. Maybe that kind of thing flies better in Britain.

By the time the human race makes it to the galaxy faring stage in 40K, humanity's coloration will be all but homogenized. Sure, there will be populations which colonize planets with specialized environments which will reverse or alter the coloration of human beings. Certainly in the hive cities, people are going to be mostly pale from a lack of sunlight, and on desert planets, people are going to become darker to provide protection from easy burning. However, it's likely to never be as drastic as we see on Earth. Remember, Africans evolved to be darker skinned over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. The thing is, colonizing humans from a race with advanced technology are never going to need this kind of evolution since they will arrive on the planets with the comforts of clothing, shelter, covered transportation, etc. It's all speculative, but a relatively homogenous coloration and facial structure seems pretty realistic for 40K. That said, there's also nothing that would say you can't have a mixed or homogenous non-tan/white army.

nomsheep wrote:@CalgarsPimpHand, it's much easier to make your marines black/white/purple/pink with dots in fluff than it is to make them grow bewbs and drop their trousersnake.

THe most likely reason that they aren't black is cos the greater amount of people who play it are white males.

It's also easier to put yourself in the shoes of someone who looks similar to you than it someone who doesn't.

Aesthetics wise in order to be realistic Fsm would look like the males and have armour like the males. If they are modelled then they have boob armour solely to identify them as female and cos boobs sell.

Nom

When I played marines (horror I know) asll my marines wore helmets properly. In addition to be smarter than the average battle brother they could have been black, white, pink, blue, male, female, or robots.

I tend to skim til I see something interesting and then go from there. I tend to forget whats in these kind of threads that are nearly a weekly ritual...

@Frazzled: you are honsetly the first person I know of that has done that.

Nom

How about a red white and blue female robot with pink feathers in her cap?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[snip]

Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.

I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.

You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.

Melissia isn't a troll. She just is, man. The immovable object.

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[snip]

Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.

I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.

You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.

I'm still waiting for you to cite a source in support of your statement.

If you can';t cite anything that proves what you said, why do I have to prove it wrong? That's a logical fallacy. I don't have to prove it doesn't exist. You have to prove it does.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

LOL, I like how you are the one who brings up these "BS reasons" like being faster and whatnot for female marines in the first place. When I refute them and actually make them a positive for the males, then they become arbitrary BS reasons. And I like how a piece of background that has stayed the same for almost 25 years is "arbitrary BS". C'mon dude, try a little. Also I'm pretty sure that embryos are a lot more susceptible to change than real humans, however I would definitely be up for some evidence proving otherwise.

Fist off Females are faster, anything that would boost the males speed and add to his bulk is gonna do the same for them, they still end up faster. I do not men long run, I mean reflexes, Females have faster one on average, they also studies show tend to have better hand eye coordination. You keep ignoring that while saying how much the Males get boosted, the Females would also get boosted just in slightly different ways. They would on avg, be slighter and less strong bust quicker.

Also just because a part of Backgound is old does not make it less BS then it is. Explain to me, just why it can't be done as the background says? You have rewritten the human Genome to make SM, crafted whole new organs, made nano machines that transform their very bone structure and musculature yet a freaking chomozon trips you up? Simply put if you can do what is basically rebuilding a human on the cellar level, being male or female has little to do with it.

How else can that be taken but as Arbitrary BS?

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[snip]

Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.

I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.

You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.

Melissia isn't a troll. She just is, man. The immovable object.

The white knighting was kinda funny for a little bit, though I think for the sake of this thread you should drop it. Thanks man.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

LOL, I like how you are the one who brings up these "BS reasons" like being faster and whatnot for female marines in the first place. When I refute them and actually make them a positive for the males, then they become arbitrary BS reasons. And I like how a piece of background that has stayed the same for almost 25 years is "arbitrary BS". C'mon dude, try a little. Also I'm pretty sure that embryos are a lot more susceptible to change than real humans, however I would definitely be up for some evidence proving otherwise.

Fist off Females are faster, anything that would boost the males speed and add to his bulk is gonna do the same for them, they still end up faster. I do not men long run, I mean reflexes, Females have faster one on average, they also studies show tend to have better hand eye coordination. You keep ignoring that while saying how much the Males get boosted, the Females would also get boosted just in slightly different ways. They would on avg, be slighter and less strong bust quicker.

So they're not as fast (running), and not as strong, but they have slightly quicker trigger finger and reflexes? Doesn't sound like a huge deal to me, especially when you're 8 feet tall and wearing tank armor. Though this is sort of a grey area and is gonna be circular between you and me arguing over which is advantageous.

Also just because a part of Backgound is old does not make it less BS then it is. Explain to me, just why it can't be done as the background says? You have rewritten the human Genome to make SM, crafted whole new organs, made nano machines that transform their very bone structure and musculature yet a freaking chomozon trips you up? Simply put if you can do what is basically rebuilding a human on the cellar level, being male or female has little to do with it.

How else can that be taken but as Arbitrary BS?

Okay, here's the deal (again). I think that if the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperium weren't so backward, female marines might actually be possible. But considering that you have to do chants and praises in order to turn on a light in a room, such a thing as in dealing with a chromosome is completely unfeasible. For 10 millennia, all Marines have been male. Something that static is never gonna change.
It's understandably frustrating that the Imperium will never advance, however them's the breaks. That's the way the Imperium works. (or doesn't!).

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

Melissia wrote:How about a red white and blue female robot with pink feathers in her cap?

Sounds like a great anime character.

Nom

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[snip]

Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.

I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.

You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.

I'm still waiting for you to cite a source in support of your statement.

If you can';t cite anything that proves what you said, why do I have to prove it wrong?

You were the one making an unproven assertion to begin with, I merely contradicted you-- and provided sources that contradicted your assertion.

You keep using this word "fallacy", but I do not think it means what you think it means.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Melissia isn't a troll. She just is, man. The immovable object.

She is a troll, and a damn good one at that.

Just because I disagree with you and don't accept everything you say as irrefutable fact doesn't make me a troll. Let's get back on topic, please?

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).

LOL! Didn't even consider that.

That does make me wonder though how well Non-Caucasians are represented in 40K.

I do recall a few Japanese members of the Guard and the Adeptus Arbites in a few fluff stories but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

If I remember in a short story there was a heavily Japanesed influenced system that was attacked by Orks and promptly steamrolled over because they never expected the Orks to attack a fake stronghold rather than bypass it like a normal enemy.

@Mellisa: If thats aimed at me, then i don't recall us ever really disagreeing. I'm more often than not ignored by you. probably because im mostly off-topic and make arguaments based on little knowledge but still...

If not, then i apologize

On topic: Can you produce a source vet sarge?

@OP: why do you want female marines? when there is plenty of ways to make women as fast and strong as a marine without that process. (assaians(sp? and augments.)

Nom

Why bother with female space marines. Why not just give SOB super badass power armor.

Just some interesting stuff from the Deathwatch RPG which is some of the most recent stuff on Space Marines.

Deathwatch RPG, page 13 wrote:
These (feral) worlds are often technologically backward with strong militaristic societies, where male children who show potential are pushed harder and harder, that they may one day
have a chance to join the ranks of the Space Marines

Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

That's from the most recent background. Arbitrary or not, that's the way it is.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

Kain wrote:
If I remember in a short story there was a heavily Japanesed influenced system that was attacked by Orks and promptly steamrolled over because they never expected the Orks to attack a fake stronghold rather than bypass it like a normal enemy.

That's the one i was thinking of - from "Fear the Alien."

One of the Adeptus Arbites member of Hydraphur from the Shira Calpurnia novels was a Nakayama.


it should be noted though that GW does have a store in Tokyo...

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

That's from the most recent background. Arbitrary or not, that's the way it is.

So if someone really wanted to, then they could manipluate the zygotes to work for females?

Nom

nomsheep wrote:@Mellisa: If thats aimed at me, then i don't recall us ever really disagreeing. I'm more often than not ignored by you. probably because im mostly off-topic and make arguaments based on little knowledge but still...

If not, then i apologize

On topic: Can you produce a source vet sarge?

@OP: why do you want female marines? when there is plenty of ways to make women as fast and strong as a marine without that process. (assaians(sp? and augments.)

Nom

[inside jokes]Melissa may not be a troll, but her avatar depicts one in an entirely different context.[/inside jokes.]

And some people are just obstinate about having certain things, for some, that thing is space marines with tits. Why people are obstinate about this is something best left for a psychologist to explain.

Yes, I'm well aware of the deathwatch material, in fact I have brought it up in threads regarding this topic.

But I also point to this post as a rebuttal.

Melissia wrote:While it is true that there is very little genetic difference between a male and a female, Astartes fanboys claim that this relaively insignificant difference is enough to disqualify all women, and therefor it must count for quite a bit in 40k (given that men of entirely different families and thus far less related than a brother and sister would be are able to both become Astartes).

Games Workshop does not employ geneticists or even biologists. They don't know what they're talking about; they haven't the faintest idea and they're really just pulling pop culture "science" nonsense out of their asses, and you shouldn't look too deeply in to it. Suffice it to say, humans in 40k are VERY different from humans in the real world. the martial difference between the two is not so great in 40k, because 40k runs on rule of cool rather than physics.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

Er huh?

The zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types?

Is there anymore explanation to that written in the book?

nomsheep wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

That's from the most recent background. Arbitrary or not, that's the way it is.

So if someone really wanted to, then they could manipluate the zygotes to work for females?

Nom

I would doubt that it would be successful given the technological regression in the Imperium. In addition, heretic Adeptus would be more likely to create crazy machines of war than worry about creating a marine that would be more than likely inferior.

@ Melissia- I saw your post and honestly it still doesn't work. Games Workshop doesn't employ generals or architects or spaceship makers either. It's all the rule of cool, as you mentioned. I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that would want to see a gross-ass 7 foot tall "thing" that just happened to have once been a female.
And again, arguing as much as you want, it won't change the background. The fact that GW didn't employ biologists means nothing.
Finally, you're ignoring the fact that it's "male children with potential" that are chosen. Not women.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler