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Kain wrote:According to the Space Wolves novel Ragnar was barely old enough to have his voice cracking, this implies an age range of about 12-14, rather late for a space marine. As for the Ultramarines, Uriel Ventris was what? Six or Eight when he was brought in?

He became an acolyte at 6, but the actual implantation process did not begin until he was around 15-16. The age when the process can begin seems to be quite variable. According to older fluff, including Creation of the Space Marine, the ideal age is between 10 and 14, at the onset of puberty. This is probably how the Space Marines were originally created on Terra, and this seemingly would produce the best/most reliable results. As an additional advantage, this gives you plenty of time for indoctrination, which is probably why so many Terran Astartes rejected their Primarchs and/or ended up being purged from the Traitor Legions by their native brothers.

Then again, the Dark Angels picked squires for enhancement around 16, and their production rate and efficiency was unparalleled (98% success rate I think? it was mentioned as an extraordinary accomplishment by any standard in Fallen Angels), going from human to a full-fledged battle-brother in just 2 years. So it seems that delaying the process is not disadvantageous, which makes sense given that the hormonal makeup of male adolescence allows for a delayed, slower and longer growth spurt (unlike in women, where higher levels of estradiol and estrogen seal the epiphysial plates and end the grown spurt early in order to focus on developing the reproductive system. Oh my, this post almost threatens to be on topic!).

Space Wolves have their own unique twist on the process, with the Canis Helix and the whole "go wander naked in the arctic wilderness, and if you survive to come back and don't turn into a werewolf, you can be a Space Wolf". IIRC, Blood Angels also recruit from a savage death world, picking the most grizzled and deadly.

DogOfWar wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:I do not know where you got that, I do not have the books on me now but if ya look at this link http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.T5XpAtlA50I you will see the idea time to start the first three implants( not training or selection which would have already happened) is ages 10-14. Older then that the rejection gets worse.

How many 8 and 9 year old you know even a whiff of 5'5"?

Evidently what GW lists and what they allow black library writers to indicate, are not the same things. Both the Space Wolf and Ultramarines novels only start their training, let alone implants, at 14+.

The Space Wolf novels are rather... liberal... with the details and adherence to canon. They were written by somebody who wanted to write about awesome, drunken Space Vikings, and not actual Space Marines, lol. When you think about the Space Wolf recruitment model, it doesn't make any sense. They keep their planet permanently in a state of archaic tribal warfare in order to breed the best recruits and select only the most worthy, however, they have to select these candidates based on "worthiness" by the time they are 6-8 years old. Long before any normal human has begun to mature physically and prove themselves on a battlefield.

From the article I referenced in my prior post, it says very clearly that an initiate needs to receive their first implants by the time they are 10-14 years old, and the last ones have to be implanted before they are 18. However, that's just the physical requirements. The recruits need a ton of indoctrination and other chem/bio preparation before they even receive the first implants. The recruits are stringently screened, because it would be wasteful to start the implant process only to find out later that the recruit wasn't suitable, mentally or physiologically. Hence why most of the fluff suggests the Chapters start screening candidates around 6 years old.

BaronIveagh wrote:

DogOfWar wrote: Nor are they in the Ultramarines novels. They take their applicants at around the age of 16, which is well into puberty for most males.

Grind to a halt here: Not what Ventris says. IIRC he talks about a particular incident when he was sixteen, and it may be when he was selected to be sent to a particular barracks, but he also states that he had earned it, so his actual selection to be an Ultramarine was probably earlier.


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nomotog wrote:I asked this before and no one found one. Is there a codex that says SM are male only? I know FFG says that, but people don't take everything in them as completely cannon.

Previous codecies did, however, IIRC it was omitted in 5th.

EDIT: In Chains of Command, Ventris' narration states: 'Since the age of six, he had been training to bring death to the Emperor's enemies..."

Why do you think it was omitted?

BaronIveagh wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:Uriel was 14 and "young for an aspirant"

And, again, Uriel states he began at six years old in Chains of Command. He was assigned his Barracks later.

"Since the age of six, he had been trained to bring death to the Emperor's enemies and normally felt a surge of justifiable pride in his lethal skills. [...] would not have survived a single month in the Agiselus Barracks on Macragge where Uriel had trained so many years ago." (McNeil, Chains of Command)

"Memories came tumbling over themselves, one in particular reaching up from over a century ago. He had just turned fourteen, barely a month since he had first been brought to the temple of Hera" (McNeil, Nightbringer)

Humans on the worlds controlled by the Ultramarines are all trained from an early age, like Cadians, but are selected as Space Marines much later. Agiselus Barracks is a prep-school for the Ultramarines. If selected, they continue training (including implantation) at the Fortress of Hera.

DoW

BaronIveagh wrote:Except for the part where it was cut in the most recent edition. Now it only soldiers on in FFG's RPGs, which some people claim are inadmissible here.

This is an incredibly tenuous argument, that would get you laughed out of class in any intellectual discussion, so picture me laughing at you, the whole class laughing at you, and you slinking out of the room to go drop the section.

The current codex does indeed lack the phrasing that all recruits must be male. However, the pronouns are exclusively male (he, his, him), and repeatedly use the term "man", as well as "brother".


I understand your desperation, but you can't cite one book to overturn dozens of others, lol. Especially when the book offers no proof of your claim, only a lack of proof against it. I mean, the book also doesn't say anywhere that the Space Marines can't be Eldar, or cows.


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nomotog wrote:Why do you think it was omitted?

Because GW figured at this point there was no need to make specific mention of one of its longest running canonical fact?

However, it is obvious they have underestimated the depths of human desperation and obstinancy.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:When you think about the Space Wolf recruitment model, it doesn't make any sense. They keep their planet permanently in a state of archaic tribal warfare in order to breed the best recruits and select only the most worthy, however, they have to select these candidates based on "worthiness" by the time they are 6-8 years old. Long before any normal human has begun to mature physically and prove themselves on a battlefield.

Sure it does. Speculation: Though they receive the first implants at a very late age, they also receive the Canis Helix, by all accounts a powerful mutagen. The physical vigor/regenerative qualities of the nacent wulfen allow some (note, many perish) to adapt to and survive the changes wrought by the geneseed far more quickly. Without the aid of the mutagen, the late implantation would fail and the recruit would be lost.

Whoa, where did Ragnar becoming an applicant at 6 come from? He's clearly well into puberty before he is 'chosen' by Ranek at Speaker's Rock.

DoW

nomotog wrote:
Why do you think it was omitted?

Not a GW editor. A couple possibilities exist. One is that they're prepping for changes in 6th. You might also notice they changed some of the implants in C:SM for 5th as well, from previous editions. Another is they just wanted to be more maddeningly vague.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I mean, the book also doesn't say anywhere that the Space Marines can't be Eldar, or cows.

Just because fluff appeared in previous books does not mean it's current, either.

While your dripping sarcasm amuses me, I might point out that you offer no proof in current fluff of your own position. Your assertion is 'but everyone knows that...' To which I refute 'Yes, and once everyone knew that the earth was flat.'

Using male pronouns does not justify your position, as it's a common writing convention. Notice that until 3rd edition, the bulk of D&D rulebooks also used almost exclusively male pronouns.

Well, that guy is not a Space Marine. He is a human/Eldar halfbreed who became an Astropath though, which is pretty damn lulzy already.

Ahh, more desperation.

The very distinct difference is that the Half-Eldar Ultramarine has been categorically retconned as impossible. The males only for Space Marines has not.

Dude. I'm gonna save you some time. I know so much more about 40K than you do. That is almost guaranteed. I've been around this game since Rogue Trader, and not only have I read almost all the books, I have copies of almost all of them lying around. There isn't a single thing you can't think of that I haven't already given thought to. In fact, I was remembering the silly Half-Eldar Ultramarine a couple hours ago, wondering if anybody would be dumb enough to bring him up as an argument. Congrats?

The more things you try to fetch from the deepest recesses of your exit-only bodily orifices, the sadder and more pathetic this becomes.

So there was an eldar... You know female SMs don't sound far fetched at all anymore.

Omegus wrote:Well, that guy is not a Space Marine. He is a human/Eldar halfbreed who became an Astropath though, which is pretty damn lulzy already.

You're missing that he's wearing SM power armor. You know, that does require that one be a Space Marine or it does not work, right?

No it doesn't. Ever hear of Sisters of Battle? Or Inquisitors?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Omegus wrote:Well, that guy is not a Space Marine. He is a human/Eldar halfbreed who became an Astropath though, which is pretty damn lulzy already.

You're missing that he's wearing SM power armor. You know, that does require that one be a Space Marine or it does not work, right?

The blurb does not mention an augmentation.


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Veteran Sergeant wrote:Ahh, more desperation.

The very distinct difference is that the Half-Eldar Ultramarine has been categorically retconned as impossible. The males only for Space Marines has not.

Dude. I'm gonna save you some time. I know so much more about 40K than you do. That is almost guaranteed. I've been around this game since Rogue Trader, and not only have I read almost all the books, I have copies of almost all of them lying around. There isn't a single thing you can't think of that I haven't already given thought to. In fact, I was remembering the silly Half-Eldar Ultramarine a couple hours ago, wondering if anybody would be dumb enough to bring him up as an argument. Congrats?

The more things you try to fetch from the deepest recesses of your exit-only bodily orifices, the sadder and more pathetic this becomes.

My Spidey senses are tingling!

Sorry, never mind, those are my bs senses

You guys are all arguing genetics, when it's really easy as to the reason why females can't be Space Marines:

"Games Workshop said so."

If they ever retcon it, they can be. Until then, they can't. Easy.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The very distinct difference is that the Half-Eldar Ultramarine has been categorically retconned as impossible. The males only for Space Marines has not.

Dude. I'm gonna save you some time. I know so much more about 40K than you do. That is almost guaranteed.

Oh, then please point me to the Codex where he no longer exists, remembering that the current Codex supplants all previous versions (one of the few things that GW is adamant about).


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Omegus wrote:No it doesn't. Ever hear of Sisters of Battle? Or Inquisitors?

Both are radically different from SM powered armor. In this case, Mk V Heresy pattern.

You do know that A: you don't have to be a Space Marine to wear power armor, and B: that guy's fluff is older than the current fluff about Space Marine power armor right?

You see, before you go bandying these things about, it might be important to learn where they came from and when, lol.

In this case, Illiyan Nastase dates back to White Dwarf 97, while Rick Priestley's article was published in White Dwarf 98. Technically, Illiyan Nastase is a: not a Space Marine, and b: was canonically accepted for one whole month in 1988 before he was retconned out of existence.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

The blurb does not mention an augmentation.

For SM power armor to function, you have to receive the Black Carapace implant. Since he's in Mk V armor...

Well he's clearly wearing it so he either has a black carapace, or you don't necessarily need one.

DoW

EDIT: And it's Mark VI armour.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
In this case, Illiyan Nastase dates back to White Dwarf 97, while Rick Priestley's article was published in White Dwarf 98. Technically, Illiyan Nastase is a: not a Space Marine, and b: was canonically accepted for one whole month in 1988 before he was retconned out of existence.

You might want to try reading that article, try around page 16 and tell me where it says that they have to be human?


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DogOfWar wrote:
EDIT: And it's Mark VI armor.

Oh, yeah, the legs are smooth, aren't they. Ok, you got one on me, I usually go by helmet and torso, and both are missing or covered here. (Not that I haven't seen Mk VI with mk V legs, though, too... damn marines swapping parts over time...)

Hunterindarkness wrote:
No. Your arument was based off bull that hass been shown to be wrong, it was based off false pudo science, and a clear lack of understanding both what women can do, have done, how they function in a military unit and an over all hand waving of "Oh men can do that better" even when shown some things they simply can not.

It was only afteryou kept being proven wrong that your threw up your hands and cried "well its always been that way" which avoids the very fact that the way it has always been is both Arbitrary and complete BS.

LMFAO oh man you are grasping for straws now. Guess what? Yeah Space Marine augmentation is not based on science. Neither is the rest of 40k.
I haven't been proven wrong at all to be honest. I am using background from the game to argue my point. All you're doing is being a little whiny kid who can't get his way.

Newsflash for everyone in this thread: Space Marines only being able to be male is a very solid part of the lore and it's continually insisted upon, even if you think that it's unrealistic. Trying to argue against it is like arguing with a brick wall. It won't work. You'll have an easier time arguing that the Alpha Legion worship the Emperor.
Cause guess what? 40k isn't rooted in actual science so stop crying about it.


Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

BaronIveagh wrote:While your dripping sarcasm amuses me, I might point out that you offer no proof in current fluff of your own position. Your assertion is 'but everyone knows that...' To which I refute 'Yes, and once everyone knew that the earth was flat.'

Until it was proven that the Earth was round. Not until they forgot they thought it was flat and decided arbitrarily that it was round.

Using male pronouns does not justify your position, as it's a common writing convention. Notice that until 3rd edition, the bulk of D&D rulebooks also used almost exclusively male pronouns.

And almost every book that does this has a disclaimer that male pronouns are used for simplicity's sake and not to indicate maleness. Nowhere in the 5th Edition Codex is a disclaimed like this made. In English convention, if you're not designating gender with a pronoun, you use gender neutral terms like "their", or most grammatically correct, however typing inefficient, you use "his or her/him or her/he or she" in every instance.

Remember where I told you a few posts up that I'm going to be way ahead of you at any step of this game? Keep that in mind. Not only do I obviously know more about 40K, more about the military, more about weapons, and more about warfighting, it is fair to mention that out of the two baccalaureate degrees that I hold, one of them is in English.

BaronIveagh wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:
EDIT: And it's Mark VI armor.

Oh, yeah, the legs are smooth, aren't they. Ok, you got one on me, I usually go by helmet and torso, and both are missing or covered here. (Not that I haven't seen Mk VI with mk V legs, though, too... damn marines swapping parts over time...)

No worries, I had to check 40k wiki to be sure. I'm thinking perhaps some people know a little too much about 40k...

DoW

Joan of Astartes

BaronIveagh wrote:Oh, yeah, the legs are smooth, aren't they. Ok, you got one on me, I usually go by helmet and torso, and both are missing or covered here. (Not that I haven't seen Mk VI with mk V legs, though, too... damn marines swapping parts over time...)

Of course, if you knew your fluff, you'd know that Illiyan Nastase was created in White Dward 97 in 1988, but MkV Heresy Armor didn't exist until it was mentioned in "Space Marine Armour" by Rick Priestley, originally published in White Dwarf 120, in 1990 with the first MkV models being released in early 1991, so it would be impossible for him to have been armored in anything other than Mk6 armor.

VS, perhaps you need to chill out just a little. I'm all for a good debate but things are getting a little vindictive.

Just a suggestion.

DoW

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Oh, yeah, the legs are smooth, aren't they. Ok, you got one on me, I usually go by helmet and torso, and both are missing or covered here. (Not that I haven't seen Mk VI with mk V legs, though, too... damn marines swapping parts over time...)

Of course, if you knew your fluff, you'd know that Illiyan Nastase was created in White Dward 97 in 1988, but MkV Heresy Armor didn't exist until it was mentioned in "Space Marine Armour" by Rick Priestley, originally published in White Dwarf 120, in 1990 with the first MkV models being released in early 1991, so it would be impossible for him to have been armored in anything other than Mk6 armor.

Haha, Veteran Sergeant wins! Flawless victory.

In addition, trying to use Nastase to support the female marine argument is terrible because Marines were not taken in as kids back when he was around, and Marines had not fully developed into what we consider them today as they were still T3 (heros at T4) when he was introduced. Marneus Calgar actually didn't fight at all and hung back at Fort Macragge most of time due to his extensive injuries. In game terms he was a badass though, since he could move 8 inches a turn due to bionic legs.
Oh yeah and the Ultramarines were actually a replacement for a chapter that went to Chaos. Funnily enough I think that background is more interesting than what we have now.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Until it was proven that the Earth was round. Not until they forgot they thought it was flat and decided arbitrarily that it was round.

Except that Aristotle proved it was round long before Magellan, by pointing out that constellations rose higher over hte horizon as you sailed in different directions, therefor the Earth would have to be round. So, there was a lot of arbitrarily deciding things between points a and b.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And almost every book that does this has a disclaimer that male pronouns are used for simplicity's sake and not to indicate maleness. Nowhere in the 5th Edition Codex is a disclaimed like this made. In English convention, if you're not designating gender with a pronoun, you use gender neutral terms like "their", or most grammatically correct, however typing inefficient, you use "his or her/him or her/he or she" in every instance.

You're forgetting that convention is relatively new. Pick up one from fifteen years ago. No such disclaimer. And, frankly, let me turn your earlier argument around on you: "Why would they spell it out when it should be apparent'?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Remember where I told you a few posts up that I'm going to be way ahead of you at any step of this game? Keep that in mind. Not only do I obviously know more about 40K, more about the military, more about weapons, and more about warfighting, it is fair to mention that out of the two baccalaureate degrees that I hold, one of them is in English.

Not to mention obviously knowing more about being high on your own bs, a well as being a pirate robot zombie ninja doctor.

Sorry, browser cock-up.

BaronIveagh wrote:You might want to try reading that article, try around page 16 and tell me where it says that they have to be human?

Needless insult removed.
Reds8n

However, sadly, the word human is used over and over in the article, starting in the second sentence. But, scarily enough, the word human has also been omitted from the 5th edition codex...

Which, sadly, does mean that this guy is now canonically acceptable...