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 Tyran wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

I think people really don't pick this up out of the fluff. But Chaos has to run and hide in the Eye of Terror and the Malestrom all the time (for ten thousand consecutive years). And why is this? Because while the foes of the Imperium (aside from perhaps the Tyranids) can be very dangerous when their power is focused, the Imperium is vast.

I believe that the only forces that have managed to stomp through the Imperium while being practically unopposed are the Necrons and Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Orks are also known for their ability to smash multiple Imperial worlds with little effort.

Has anyone else wondered if maybe the Tau could finish what the Old Ones started (what with their being the one race in 40k that develops new technology) and put a control mechanism into the Orks? Mayhaps that could be how humanity manages to survive past the 40k time frame. Orks are nasty as they are- how much worse would they be with intelligent commanders and support from Hammerhead gunships?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

I think people really don't pick this up out of the fluff. But Chaos has to run and hide in the Eye of Terror and the Malestrom all the time (for ten thousand consecutive years). And why is this? Because while the foes of the Imperium (aside from perhaps the Tyranids) can be very dangerous when their power is focused, the Imperium is vast.

I believe that the only forces that have managed to stomp through the Imperium while being practically unopposed are the Necrons and Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Orks are also known for their ability to smash multiple Imperial worlds with little effort.

Has anyone else wondered if maybe the Tau could finish what the Old Ones started (what with their being the one race in 40k that develops new technology) and put a control mechanism into the Orks? Mayhaps that could be how humanity manages to survive past the 40k time frame. Orks are nasty as they are- how much worse would they be with intelligent commanders and support from Hammerhead gunships?

Don't think the tau could possibly do that. There not green enough and an Ork saying that they need to work with and adopt tau culture or at least tau ideas would be killed instantly by the other orks. Also to me I think it is far more likely that the orks will kill off the tau than the IOM or the Tyranids just because you can have a huge warband of orks that can focus on the tau and wipe them out. If I remember correctly it was an ork WAAAGH led by an ork know as the beast that nearly conquered the galaxy.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
There's a reason why there have been 12 failed black Crusades.

Define 'failed'. The Ruinous Powers are not known for their forgiving natures, and where Abaddon to have failed in meeting their goals this many times... or even a couple of times... he'd have been turned into a chaos spawn (if he was lucky) and they'd have found someone else to do their bidding. The Black Crusades are only failures if you think that their sole goal is to conquer Terra, which it isn't.

There has been a shift in emphasis in the fluff over time. Back when the game was played 'normally' at a skirmish level the idea of massed forces being brought to bear on a single battlefront was far more relegated to the background, and the Imperium's huge numbers were mostly invoked to illustrate the equally huge casualties they would take to obtain their victories - and victory often meant no more than surviving and holding onto what they had (or the burned and blasted ruins of what was left of what they had) rather than extending their domain through fresh conquest.

But then the result of the 13th Black Crusade got rolled back, and that combined with the push to justify ever larger and more impressive forces on the tabletop has pushed the focus to this "Humanity Feth Yeah!" idea of the Imperium as a galactic superpower that can go on the offensive against other races rather than expending almost all of their efforts into just hanging on.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

I think people really don't pick this up out of the fluff. But Chaos has to run and hide in the Eye of Terror and the Malestrom all the time (for ten thousand consecutive years). And why is this? Because while the foes of the Imperium (aside from perhaps the Tyranids) can be very dangerous when their power is focused, the Imperium is vast.

I believe that the only forces that have managed to stomp through the Imperium while being practically unopposed are the Necrons and Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Orks are also known for their ability to smash multiple Imperial worlds with little effort.

Has anyone else wondered if maybe the Tau could finish what the Old Ones started (what with their being the one race in 40k that develops new technology) and put a control mechanism into the Orks? Mayhaps that could be how humanity manages to survive past the 40k time frame. Orks are nasty as they are- how much worse would they be with intelligent commanders and support from Hammerhead gunships?

Don't think the tau could possibly do that. There not green enough and an Ork saying that they need to work with and adopt tau culture or at least tau ideas would be killed instantly by the other orks. Also to me I think it is far more likely that the orks will kill off the tau than the IOM or the Tyranids just because you can have a huge warband of orks that can focus on the tau and wipe them out. If I remember correctly it was an ork WAAAGH led by an ork know as the beast that nearly conquered the galaxy.

A gene-altering virus that spreads through the air would render any Ork within choppa distance part of Waaaagh Tau- I see that as being the most likely distribution system.

... and Tau have gotten very good at killing Orks. Tau also benefit from not being well-known throughout the galaxy- every Ork knows that spikey 'umies an' beakies make for good fightin'!

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

I think people really don't pick this up out of the fluff. But Chaos has to run and hide in the Eye of Terror and the Malestrom all the time (for ten thousand consecutive years). And why is this? Because while the foes of the Imperium (aside from perhaps the Tyranids) can be very dangerous when their power is focused, the Imperium is vast.

I believe that the only forces that have managed to stomp through the Imperium while being practically unopposed are the Necrons and Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Orks are also known for their ability to smash multiple Imperial worlds with little effort.

Has anyone else wondered if maybe the Tau could finish what the Old Ones started (what with their being the one race in 40k that develops new technology) and put a control mechanism into the Orks? Mayhaps that could be how humanity manages to survive past the 40k time frame. Orks are nasty as they are- how much worse would they be with intelligent commanders and support from Hammerhead gunships?

Don't think the tau could possibly do that. There not green enough and an Ork saying that they need to work with and adopt tau culture or at least tau ideas would be killed instantly by the other orks. Also to me I think it is far more likely that the orks will kill off the tau than the IOM or the Tyranids just because you can have a huge warband of orks that can focus on the tau and wipe them out. If I remember correctly it was an ork WAAAGH led by an ork know as the beast that nearly conquered the galaxy.

A gene-altering virus that spreads through the air would render any Ork within choppa distance part of Waaaagh Tau- I see that as being the most likely distribution system.

... and Tau have gotten very good at killing Orks. Tau also benefit from not being well-known throughout the galaxy- every Ork knows that spikey 'umies an' beakies make for good fightin'!

Possible, but I don't see the Tau having the tech to undo what the old ones did any time soon if ever. Also with Orks you have to be good at killing them or your not going to last long and don't forget one never hears about how much damage the Tau suffer after every fight with the Orks. On the Tau not being well-known that is true, but with Orks you can still have a every large Waaaagh on your door step even if your not the top dog around just because you were unlucky enough to be in the way.

Part of the tau problem is, I think, they're basically stuck out on the back end of nowhere, with no way to really make an appearance on the galactic stage. I mean the Eldar/Dark Eldar have the webway, Orks and Chaos are everywhere, Necrons have their methods (pick whichever version you prefer), etc. The tau... are kinda stuck off on the edge of the galaxy. I mean even the Kroot, their minions have a much greater presence/impact on the galaxy than the tau (and you have to wonder how it is the Kroot never shared warp technology with the tau. Aren't they supposed to be super-grateful for their assistance in defending Pech?) So its really hard for them to have any relevance apart from that small corner of the 40K galaxy without some creative finagling (case in point: What was the tau's involvement in the 13th Black Crusade? Every other faction had a presence in and around that area.) Size also tends to be a problem considering the threats they deal with (as others have noted) because they can't really afford serious losses. I mean Eldar lose craftworlds.. the Imperium loses whole worlds and sectors to various reasons... but I can't seriously think of the Tau ever seriously losing a major territory or holding to catastrophe yet (colonies and newly conquered territories yes, but not a major world that might be their equivalent of a sector capital, or a forge or hive world..) That makes it kind of hard to convey any sense of danger or threat to the tau, because they almost HAVE to win overwhemlingly just to break even.

I think the most egregious example of this was the Damocles supplement where they fought on Agrellan. First they wanted to bypass the world because they feared it and it was heavily defended, would inflict horrible losses... I was okay with this. That's part of the Tau's SOP and bent towards efficiency (they'd rather assimilate than destroy, and they could always take other means to conquer the world later, like water caste subversion.) But no.. space.. plot fiat... dictates not only that they cannot bypass the planet (for some reason) but they literally cannot bypass it without getting into a ground battle (How does that work? They have starships. Star systems are huge places. Do they have to land the ships and ford them across rivers as if this were Oregon Trail: 40K edition?) And once they are actually INVOLVED in a ground battle, Shadowsun Harrington (reference to Honorverse novels by David Weber. Prefer Grand Admiral Shadowthrawn if you prefer a more star warsie reference.) effortlessly and almost bloodlessly defeats all the threats on the ground. Which.. kind of makes their whole fear and desire to avoid Agrellan to begin with seem kind of stupid and pointless, and only again reinforces the preconception that the Tau cannot compete with the other factions without gratuitous amounts of luck/authorial fiat helping them out. This actually insults them, narratively speaking, because struggles and conflicts like that have heaps of potential for character/factional development.

Which also gets into what I see as the other big problem with the Tau. I mean apart from their Greater Good, their militant conquests... what do they really have going for them? Do we have any more development or speculation about their origins? No, but we get hints they may be using evil mind control worms. Do we see any significant development of their aspects of society and culture and personal interaction? Not much, although we get glimpses of it with the Farsight supplement (which I actually thought was good because it ADDED some character and complexity to the Empire.. there's potential for disagreement, diversity, and even internal conflict over ideology and how Tau might view the 'greater good'.) Ultimately, the Tau seem largely defined by who they are fighting against (especially the Imperium) and this is once more something that does them no favors. They seem to exist to grow, expand, be dynamic, and provoke the Imperium (and sometimes get threatened by the occasional Ork or Tyranid incursion.) Not.. .terribly interesting, and it only seems to further the factional polarization between the Tau and Imperium (because unless its Space Marines or Inquisitors or a GUARD HERO like Ciaphas Cain, more often than not the Tau kick the Imperium's ass to make themselves look good, and because the Imperium can afford the losses and the Tau can't.

I'm no longer eager to see the tau demolished.. heck I even kinda like the idea that the Imperium and Tau might have a sort of grudging respect, or might have even shaped one another's attitudes through their conflicts (Tau might be becoming more like humans in some way, which means regressing to that dreaded 'Mont'au' nature they have struggled to overcome. Again more development!) Or even teamwork. There's a certain irony in that in their competition (at the Tau's level at least) they might even have certain similarities. Anyhow, what I'd wish to see is the tau made more.. relevant. A more robust and legitimate threat and competitor out on the eastern fringe. Find out they have heaps more allies than previously assumed, or they make more extensive use of drones and robotics in warfare to bolster their limited numbers. Something like that. Make them something that not only can afford serious risk (and endure it, like every other faction), but can also present a credible threat on its own merits (and this can play into their style of warfare quite easily - its just a matter of scale and application, not idea.)

I don't think its a coincidence that the best bit of Tau development (and my favorite Tau-centric work) has been the Fire Warrior novel.