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the enforcement arm of the U.S. federal courts.

And so the judiciary branch has its own executive branch?

 Breotan wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
...the FBI is not the "Federal PD".

Actually, they are. The problem is, a bunch of other federal agencies are also the "Federal PD". I'm arguing that the FBI should be an omnibus law enforcement agency for the Federal Government (or at least as much as possible) and these other agencies should be required to use/coordinate with the FBI for any enforcement action that would require the use of a "tactical" response team.

Agreed.

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So the United States Department of Veterans Affairs Police does not count as the VA having a police? It's just "arming some VA employees"?

Yes, you're still talking about giving a badge and a gun to a federal employee of a non-police agency. The VA is undoubtedly its own little empire as a matter of fact. But I don't think that's a good thing.

The VAPD is a federal law enforcement agency by federal statue, not because they made it up.

I tell you what, how about you go research what the VAPD does and then tell me your plan for replacing all those activities via other agencies.

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So the United States Department of Veterans Affairs Police does not count as the VA having a police? It's just "arming some VA employees"?

Yes, you're still talking about giving a badge and a gun to a federal employee of a non-police agency. The VA is undoubtedly its own little empire as a matter of fact. But I don't think that's a good thing.

Its a brilliant example of the problem actually. Why does every agency have their own rent a cops? There should be one security force that handles security for nonmilitary installations. The thought of the amount of bureacratic waste in just this one noncore thing is staggering. Not to mention the urge and associated cost to go SWATy.

 d-usa wrote:
I tell you what, how about you go research what the VAPD does and then tell me your plan for replacing all those activities via other agencies.

If one federal agency currently handles it then logically one other federal agency could also handle it.

 Manchu wrote:

the enforcement arm of the U.S. federal courts.

And so the judiciary branch has its own executive branch?

Spoiler:

The Legislature has their own executive branch.

Maybe they should give up their own law enforcement protecting their butts as an example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I tell you what, how about you go research what the VAPD does and then tell me your plan for replacing all those activities via other agencies.

If one federal agency currently handles it then logically one other federal agency could also handle it.

So are we going to massively expand the FBI?

 d-usa wrote:
So are we going to massively expand the FBI?

I would prefer to massively contract the federal government.

 Manchu wrote:

 dogma wrote:
I don't believe there is a Federal Nurse Association, so your argument is based on false pretenses.

It was an argument in the spirit of a slant rhyme.

So was mine.

 d-usa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So the United States Department of Veterans Affairs Police does not count as the VA having a police? It's just "arming some VA employees"?

Yes, you're still talking about giving a badge and a gun to a federal employee of a non-police agency. The VA is undoubtedly its own little empire as a matter of fact. But I don't think that's a good thing.

The VAPD is a federal law enforcement agency by federal statue, not because they made it up.

I tell you what, how about you go research what the VAPD does and then tell me your plan for replacing all those activities via other agencies.

I just did. VAPD and all other "PD"s besides a few select entities will be handled by US Security Corp "US SC" for short. In the interests of effiicency this has been privatized out to Omni Consumer Products, a proven subcontractor for the US government and local governments.

 dogma wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It was an argument in the spirit of a slant rhyme.

So was mine.

You and I should start a thread were we take turns posting verses instead of arguments. Well, I suppose they can still be arguments but the main goal should more narrowly aesthetic rather than rhetorical.

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So are we going to massively expand the FBI?

I would prefer to massively contract the federal government.

So considering the number of federal buildings in any given major city, how do you suppose to enforce the laws there unless you create or expand one massive super-law-enforcement agency?

 d-usa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So are we going to massively expand the FBI?

I would prefer to massively contract the federal government.

So considering the number of federal buildings in any given major city, how do you suppose to enforce the laws there unless you create or expand one massive super-law-enforcement agency?

Security is not policing. You don't need guns for regulation enforcement as its not a criminal activity.

 d-usa wrote:
unless you create or expand one massive super-law-enforcement agency?

There's no need to talk about a single, super-massive federal police agency.

Also, I don't think LEOs should ever be called "agents." Police officers should be called police officers, marshals, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
You don't need guns for regulation enforcement as its not a criminal activity.

That's a very interesting point.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So the United States Department of Veterans Affairs Police does not count as the VA having a police? It's just "arming some VA employees"?

Yes, you're still talking about giving a badge and a gun to a federal employee of a non-police agency. The VA is undoubtedly its own little empire as a matter of fact. But I don't think that's a good thing.

Its a brilliant example of the problem actually. Why does every agency have their own rent a cops? There should be one security force that handles security for nonmilitary installations. The thought of the amount of bureacratic waste in just this one noncore thing is staggering. Not to mention the urge and associated cost to go SWATy.

See, I "get" why the VA has their own "police" and why the library of congress has "police" but I do not understand why they IRS has "SWAT", or why most of those sorts of agencies, outside of the FBI have any sort of actual tactical gear.


And yes, I do think that, in order to get rid of most of these overlapping, redundant federal agencies, the few that remained would need to be expanded. But, in my eyes, that STILL saves money, because instead of paying 45+ people the top level GS salary for being the "director" of some agency, we are paying 8 people that much. It's one trick that was being employed at my last duty station during the military cutbacks... We got rid of one brigade, but at the same time, were standing up 3 new Battalions in the remaining brigades. This made it so there was actually roughly the same amount of people, but the money being spent to run all the HQ buildings, etc was being saved by not needing as many. (plus, there were people bitching and moaning about the heritage and historic significance of the unit being cut, and I agree, the wrong damn brigade was cut)

I'm not even that concerned about "saving money." I am more concerned about agencies with authority to use deadly force being more directly answerable to the people via their elected representative. The fact that myriad federal agencies have armed employees despite not being police agencies is only one part of this problem.

 Manchu wrote:
You and I should start a thread were we take turns posting verses instead of arguments. Well, I suppose they can still be arguments but the main goal should more narrowly aesthetic rather than rhetorical.

At least one cockle would be warmed were that to happen. In the meantime, I will concern myself with matters historical.

And I with matters lyrical. Farewell again, for now, political OTers.

 Jihadin wrote:

The bill could apply to a host of federal agencies, including the BLM, IRS and others.

Seriously. Why the heck does the IRS need armed officers? If they need to take your property, that's what constables are for.

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So are we going to massively expand the FBI?

I would prefer to massively contract the federal government.

So considering the number of federal buildings in any given major city, how do you suppose to enforce the laws there unless you create or expand one massive super-law-enforcement agency?

Security is not policing. You don't need guns for regulation enforcement as its not a criminal activity.

When you can tell me what kind of "policing" our "police" actually do, then you will figure out why "security" is not the right person to do it. Because it's a gak-ton of criminal activity.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So are we going to massively expand the FBI?

I would prefer to massively contract the federal government.

So considering the number of federal buildings in any given major city, how do you suppose to enforce the laws there unless you create or expand one massive super-law-enforcement agency?

Security is not policing. You don't need guns for regulation enforcement as its not a criminal activity.

When you can tell me what kind of "policing" our "police" actually do, then you will figure out why "security" is not the right person to do it. Because it's a gak-ton of criminal activity.

Then the FBI should do it. Maybe you should focus more on your patients and invisible lists and less on rent a cops.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

See, I "get" why the VA has their own "police" and why the library of congress has "police" but I do not understand why they IRS has "SWAT", or why most of those sorts of agencies, outside of the FBI have any sort of actual tactical gear.

Not speaking for all agencies, but many agencies can actually find themselves in situations where actual SWAT teams are needed.

And when those tactics are needed you only have three real options:

1) Have your own. They are on scene, they are available, they know the buildings and campus, they have trained there, they know who is supposed to be there and who isn't. They know if something is out of place that could be a trap. It's really the best option (IMO).
2) Rely on another federal department. These could be hours away when minutes count, they are not as familiar with the area, they are not as familiar with what is supposed to be there and what isn't. While you wait for them to arrive and all the other inter-agency bull-crap that always goes down people get hurt.
3) Pray for the goodwill of the local city/county/state police force. Which has two big problems: They have no jurisdiction on federal property, and they have no legal requirement to participate in any enforcement of federal law.

Even if you rely on local cops for non-SWAT tactics, they have no reason or responsibility to do anything about anything. Somebody walks through the metal detector and the "security" guys find out he has a gun? He just tells them to feth off and continues into the hospital. They have no authority to stop him or arrest him. They can call the cops who will just tell them "that's federal property, not our problem".

And yes, I do think that, in order to get rid of most of these overlapping, redundant federal agencies, the few that remained would need to be expanded.

And I would be okay with that. Let's say you pick the FBI and expand them to be the official de-facto everything FPD. If you station FPD officers in the hospital you get all the benefits of having our own VAPD officers in the building 24/7 (knowing the building, the rules, the patients, being able to enforce the laws on federal property and investigate crimes that happen here, etc) and you get the benefits of having one police force that can work together when a crime that originates on VA property carries over into what would be the jurisdiction of another federal department.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So are we going to massively expand the FBI?

I would prefer to massively contract the federal government.

So considering the number of federal buildings in any given major city, how do you suppose to enforce the laws there unless you create or expand one massive super-law-enforcement agency?

Security is not policing. You don't need guns for regulation enforcement as its not a criminal activity.

When you can tell me what kind of "policing" our "police" actually do, then you will figure out why "security" is not the right person to do it. Because it's a gak-ton of criminal activity.

Then the FBI should do it. Maybe you should focus more on your patients and invisible lists and less on rent a cops.

So when the guy with the gun, machete, and full bottle of alcohol sits in my patients room. What do I do?
When the patient rips apart the seclusion room and exposes himself to a gak-ton of sharp objects that he can now use to kill himself with. What do I do?
When the patient chokes another nurse. What do I do?
When the guy with the gun to his head in the parking lot goes nuts. What do I do?

Local PD has zero responsibility here. So then what?

If you are okay with expanding the FBI so that we can have the same number of officers on our property as we do now then I'm okay with that. But "you guys don't need cops" just shows that you have zero clue what you are talkingabout.

We've already said that one omni federal security force should handle security for all govenment entities. You seem to have glossed over that completely.

are you sure there is even a VAPD?

You sure its not...this?
https://www.dhs.gov/federal-protective-service-0

 Frazzled wrote:
We've already said that one omni federal security force should handle security for all govenment entities. You seem to have glossed over that completely.

are you sure there is even a VAPD?

I'm not even sure there is a Frazzled.

 Frazzled wrote:

You sure its not...this?
https://www.dhs.gov/federal-protective-service-0

You can always Google it.

So for all you know it could already be...centralized?

 Frazzled wrote:
So for all you know it could already be...centralized?

I'm waiting on you to tell me what the department that I deal with every single day at work actually is. Please Google it and educate me, I'm just an idiot that has worked with them for over 5 years.

Move BLM into Homeland Security and we can arm them all we want. Right?

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So for all you know it could already be...centralized?

I'm waiting on you to tell me what the department that I deal with every single day at work actually is. Please Google it and educate me, I'm just an idiot that has worked with them for over 5 years.

Federal Protective Service of the Department of Homeland Security.

Armored vehicles, crew serve weapons, combat gear. Where does one draw the line at LEO crisis response to Combat Operation mode?

 Easy E wrote:
Move BLM into Homeland Security and we can arm them all we want. Right?

But they'll have to go through the super duper xray machine first. Please take your shoes and firearm off officer. Sorry but we're going to have pat you down. Don't make me call security!

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So for all you know it could already be...centralized?

I'm waiting on you to tell me what the department that I deal with every single day at work actually is. Please Google it and educate me, I'm just an idiot that has worked with them for over 5 years.

Federal Protective Service of the Department of Homeland Security.

That's who the police force is in my hospital?

Better tell them to switch out the batches on their uniforms...