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 Pouncey wrote:
Also, in regards to women fighting in real wars, wasn't there a woman who fought in World War 1 and ended up taking a bunch of enemy soldiers prisoner all on her own after she went to the woods to pee and accidentally returned to the wrong trench? I think she fought in World War 2, too.

I know that there is one woman during WW2 that joined the French Foreign Legion, and she is the only one in the history of the legion. Those guys are basically the expendable tough guys that get sent on the very dangerous or dirty missions in the French army.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8271773.stm
But basically, if you want to see tons of examples of strong women, just go there:
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?archive=1

 Lynata wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:I just had a fun thought. If you were right about boob armour being more protective, Lynata, then that would make it prudent for men to have boob armour, too.

I admit, the thought crossed my mind.

Though the most effective form would probably be a "single boob" located in the center. Or a large cone, but this is where it gets ridiculous and severely impractical.

Sorta like the elf faction from Warmachine?

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/retribution-of-scyrah/units/dawnguard-sentinel-officer-and-standard

Though it seems like having the front armor stick out in a cone would make it hard to hold a boltgun in two hands at anything but waist level. Probably what you meant by impractical.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
hehe, I see... well, Between's a big place, you might be looking a while.

Not if we settle on a nice meeting point. Unless of course if you do not want a face-to-face battle and would rather play it with no models, no table, and no fun in general.

Well, GWHQ is fairly convenient for me, and about the maximum upper limit of my travel capabilities. ^^;

Wasn't the "SoB Shot Trap" argument mostly that the shot would deflect upwards into the bottom of the helmet?

 Lynata wrote:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Brother

Apologies, I tend to refer to people based on their avatar and affiliation...

My current affiliation is Preacher of the Emperor, which is fitting because I am preachy, but not especially female. I wonder what will come next, and at which post count, by the way .
If the new A Song of Ice and Fire comes out and I win my bet against Pretre (and therefore a DCM status), I will definitely be a Sister of Bitter though .

 Lynata wrote:
Though in retrospect, your name does create an awkward paradox. >_<

Yeah, I usually pointed people that mistook me as female because of an avatar to that… but then I met BrotherHaraldus, a.k.a Ashiraya

 Lynata wrote:
Saying that Orks aren't male is a bit like claiming Space Marines are genderless: it's both true and it isn't, depending on how you define it.

Well, seems truer for fungi-based creatures than for modified human males.

 Lynata wrote:
If you would know nothing about 40k, and just had the images to go by, what would you think Orks are?

Male, I guess. Though they look animalistic enough for it not being that obvious.
For reference, I just did a google image search on female gorilla. I would not have guessed they were female either. It is more a question of the whole “male by default” mentality added with anthropomorphism that1 leads to anything not having big boobs or exaggerated hourglass figure or any trait typically linked with human women being considered male.

 Lynata wrote:
Also, just like with Necrons, GW keeps referring to individual Orks as "he" rather than "it" - the proper term for a fungus, if we want to get pedantic.

Yeah, they do not like using “it”, for some reason. In the same manner, it always bug me when people refer to monotheistic gods as “He” rather than “It”. I have never ever heard of a monotheistic religion that refers to its god as “She”. At least polytheists have goddess!


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, GWHQ is fairly convenient for me, and about the maximum upper limit of my travel capabilities. ^^;

Do you mean Warhammer Wolrd? Yeah, that would be nice, I remember the Bugman bar offering some nice veggie burger, and tons of available game tables!
That will not be before about 6 month (I have a PhD to finish), I guess, but I would love to go there again after I finish it.

Oxy wrote:Do you mean Warhammer Wolrd? Yeah, that would be nice, I remember the Bugman bar offering some nice veggie burger, and tons of available game tables!
That will not be before about 6 month (I have a PhD to finish), I guess, but I would love to go there again after I finish it.

Its a date. Well, no, its a pencilling in, that may at some point resolve into a numerically defined appointment, but definitely something I'm not averse to.

Pouncey wrote:Though it seems like having the front armor stick out in a cone would make it hard to hold a boltgun in two hands at anything but waist level. Probably what you meant by impractical.

Yup - not to mention the decreased mobility, inability to operate vehicles, etc.

Even GW Space Marines would already have massive difficulties due to the bulk of their chest. Their Scouts are unable to properly look through the scopes of their sniper rifles, and the only way a standard Marine is able to aim a gun would be to use it single-handedly - simply because the bulk and the armour make it very difficult if not impossible to align their arms horizontally in front of their chests. It might just be a problem of "hero scale", but it's a good example of what happens when you bulk up too much.

Furyou Miko wrote:Wasn't the "SoB Shot Trap" argument mostly that the shot would deflect upwards into the bottom of the helmet?

That comes up from time to time, too, but from what I have seen, most people arguing it are suggesting that somehow the boobs would result in a significantly higher amount of shots being directed towards the solarplexus.
If it's just the helmet thingie, it should be even easier to dispel, given the collar. Assuming, of course, that the average Sister does wear a helmet in battle.

I still believe that ricochets would occur less often than partial penetration and "grooving", though that is just my interpretation of how contemporary armour-piercing ammunition works on contemporary sloped armour. Needless to say, it may be different in a fictional setting with fictional wargear, but I prefer not to see a problem here when it can be so easily avoided.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:If the new A Song of Ice and Fire comes out and I win my bet against Pretre (and therefore a DCM status), I will definitely be a Sister of Bitter though

Yesss!
Fingers crossed. I still love that pun.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:For reference, I just did a google image search on female gorilla. I would not have guessed they were female either. It is more a question of the whole “male by default” mentality added with anthropomorphism that1 leads to anything not having big boobs or exaggerated hourglass figure or any trait typically linked with human women being considered male.

There's probably some truth to that, though it could also be a subliminal expectation due to 40k Orks being the only kind of "standard fantasy cliché orc" that does not have two genders. Or one. ...you know what I mean!

Also, keep us up to date about the game between the two of you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I don't believe GW as a whole could be called sexist as opposed to simply being stuck in that damned "white male default" industry standard, but given the high frequency of these coincidences I would not be surprised if there was at least one person inside who might follow this agenda. Alternatively, the company has come to the conclusion that having a sexist background and miniatures selection actually nets them more profit with the target audience of young boys. But I'm not sure if this would be more innocent or more insidious.

Well, let us be honest here: there are few female models, but those that exists are usually pretty tactful. They do have boobplate a lot, but on eldar skintight armors are common and shared between gender. They also have Shadowsun, which is as far as boobplate (or any bikini armor trope) as can be.
Though thinking about it, I cannot think of any new female character introduced by GW proper after Shadowsun, actually.
Unlike, say, Relic (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, …)

Just remembered that Sub-Commander Torchstar from the Farsight Enclaves is female. Youngest member of Farsight's Eight.

Doesn't really have a lot of fluff except that she likes to burn things and nicked a load of the new tech (such as Riptides) from the Tau Empire and took it to the Enclaves when she defected, though.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Its a date.

Is date not supposed to imply some kind of romantic context?

 Lynata wrote:
and the only way a standard Marine is able to aim a gun would be to use it single-handedly - simply because the bulk and the armour make it very difficult if not impossible to align their arms horizontally in front of their chests.

This reminds me of my female slugger models for Warmachine. Their breasts are so big that their arm have to literally go through them in order for her to hold the gun. I kid you not.
But it is not as bad as you might be expecting:

The ones with the bandana. Apart from the horrible lips (and said arm problem, but it is not all that noticeable from a distance), they really look good, I think. The huge breast make sense given the trollkin physiology, and they are not emphasized. Sad that they are so bad in the game. They usually end up having their greatest contribution to the game to be blocking the path of enemy model, or scoring/contesting zones or flags.
Which is super useful in this game, of course, but I could have more models that could do that just as well for less points…

 Lynata wrote:
Yesss!
Fingers crossed. I still love that pun.

Ahah, thanks! Martin will probably finish his book this side of the decade^w century!

 Lynata wrote:
There's probably some truth to that, though it could also be a subliminal expectation due to 40k Orks being the only kind of "standard fantasy cliché orc" that does not have two genders.
Or one. ...you know what I mean!

I just checked, apparently even Tolkien Orcs had male and female variety even though we have absolutely no more information than that. For all we know, they might just look the same. I never thought about it before.
Warcraft orcs women are… well, a good illustration of the very bad way sexual dimorphism is treated in MMO.
And yeah, I totally do know what you mean . Female orcs basically had to wait for WoW to appear in Warcraft!

 Lynata wrote:
Also, keep us up to date about the game between the two of you.

Will do!


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Just remembered that Sub-Commander Torchstar from the Farsight Enclaves is female. Youngest member of Farsight's Eight.

Doesn't really have a lot of fluff except that she likes to burn things and nicked a load of the new tech (such as Riptides) from the Tau Empire and took it to the Enclaves when she defected, though.

Lexicanicum has this interesting thing to say about Torchstar :

He is known as an impetuous Vior'lan whose affinity with fire has seen her immolate hundreds of the Tau's foes.

.
I guess time to edit.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I just checked, apparently even Tolkien Orcs had male and female variety even though we have absolutely no more information than that. For all we know, they might just look the same. I never thought about it before.
Warcraft orcs women are… well, a good illustration of the very bad way sexual dimorphism is treated in MMO.
And yeah, I totally do know what you mean . Female orcs basically had to wait for WoW to appear in Warcraft!

You think WoW's orcs are bad at sexual dimorphism in MMOs, check out their Trolls and Draenei.

And I went and read through a Cracked article about badass soldiers in history, the woman who fought in WW1 and ended up taking prisoners after returning to the wrong trench was named Milunka Savic, and is number 2 on this list of theirs.

http://www.cracked.com/article_21307_the-94-most-badass-soldiers-who-ever-lived_p10.html

People who aren't familiar with Cracked's style should be aware that there's a lot of swearing and rudeness in the article, though it is a humor site.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Is date not supposed to imply some kind of romantic context?

... snip ....

And yeah, I totally do know what you mean . Female orcs basically had to wait for WoW to appear in Warcraft!

The phrase "It's a date" is often used in non romantic contexts to the intention of comedy-by-implication.

Also, there was actually a mission in Warcraft: Orcs and Humans (AKA Warcraft 1) which involved assassinating Gul'dan's mother. I think it was Gul'dan's mother, anyway. It might have been Medivh's orcish girlfriend.

Regarding the Raging Heroes models that were mentioned a few pages back, the Heavy Iron Empire troops are even less cheesecakey than the lighter ones, and the Kurganova Shock Troops would integrate well into a Cadian Army.

Yeah, I've got a couple boxes of both on the way through my KS donation. Mostly went with various characters though, as I do RPGs far, far more frequently than I do wargames these days.

 Lynata wrote:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:For reference, I just did a google image search on female gorilla. I would not have guessed they were female either. It is more a question of the whole “male by default” mentality added with anthropomorphism that1 leads to anything not having big boobs or exaggerated hourglass figure or any trait typically linked with human women being considered male.

There's probably some truth to that, though it could also be a subliminal expectation due to 40k Orks being the only kind of "standard fantasy cliché orc" that does not have two genders. Or one. ...you know what I mean!

Also, keep us up to date about the game between the two of you.

There are far weirder gender traits in animals like some that can change genders and a creepy deep sea fish I can't remember the name of (basically the males attach to the females nether regions and disintegrate until they're just a couple sacs on the female and yes it sounds disgusting).

If you're gonna mention orks or orcs I figure I should mention skaven. Skaven are on a weird end I suppose. They have few large females and lots and lots of males. According to the dwarfs in the skaven book (they were barely intelligent, large and infrequent from what few reports where they were found) but dwarfs are probably the cranky, bitter racist and sexist old guy. They hate change and remember their glory days in warhammer fantasy so I think it's safe to say they are the grumpy old men of the fantasy world. I imagine skaven in a way that you see other species of creature where the females are often bigger and stronger. It really depends on the species I guess.

 Pouncey wrote:
You think WoW's orcs are bad at sexual dimorphism in MMOs, check out their Trolls and Draenei.

I know. I wanted to play a troll, and I quickly settled for a male one .

 Pouncey wrote:
People who aren't familiar with Cracked's style should be aware that there's a lot of swearing and rudeness in the article, though it is a humor site.

Cannot be worse than my own link .

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The phrase "It's a date" is often used in non romantic contexts to the intention of comedy-by-implication.

Oh. Consider me implied then .

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Also, there was actually a mission in Warcraft: Orcs and Humans (AKA Warcraft 1) which involved assassinating Gul'dan's mother. I think it was Gul'dan's mother, anyway. It might have been Medivh's orcish girlfriend.

I did not know that, I only played Warcraft II and Warcraft III. Did she had a specific sprite?


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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
According to the dwarfs in the skaven book (they were barely intelligent, large and infrequent from what few reports where they were found) but dwarfs are probably the cranky, bitter racist and sexist old guy.

Yeah, but Skavens, even when described by an omniscient external narrator, are pretty bad. I do not expect them to have a word to describe the concept of consent, or to even have this concept. So, I had not seen anything on how they reproduce, but that does not look like something I want to know .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:



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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
According to the dwarfs in the skaven book (they were barely intelligent, large and infrequent from what few reports where they were found) but dwarfs are probably the cranky, bitter racist and sexist old guy.

Yeah, but Skavens, even when described by an omniscient external narrator, are pretty bad. I do not expect them to have a word to describe the concept of consent, or to even have this concept. So, I had not seen anything on how they reproduce, but that does not look like something I want to know .

It probably looks something like a small humanoid rat riding some screeching rat beast from hell the size of a car. Basically all their women are like the world's fattest human women except much uglier. I hear breeding rights are a popular gift warlords bestow on stormvermin. I'm not entirely sure who all gets to but something tells me slaves can't and clanrats also might not but I'm unsure. I think plague monks have breeding rights as do the other greater clans though. I really would like to know more on the lore of the skaven. I was entirely disappointed that the uniforms and heraldry book was just that. I would've preferred a more story based big book of skaven. They're infinitely more interesting than hearing about generic greenskins, dwarfs and even elves. Maybe I should read the books more. They had a couple on grey seer thanquol and one on queek with various other mentions in other books I think. I wish 'blood in the badlands' was not a limited time thing. It was one of the few expansions I wanted to try out since it had underground battles and fortification battles with castles and sieges.

Skaven are selfish, manipulative, throw blame around, betray, steal and all manner of bad stuff. That said even a normally bad trait can have benefits. For instance being impatient may force people to pick up the pace and work harder to get a task finished but patience is normally a virtue. It's a sad, funny and annoying thing that the skaven disposition is flawed and they often are their own worst enemies. Seriously I don't think any other faction has come close to ever really destroying a major skaven lair other than in lustria and the skaven almost took it back except for an OP lizardmen mage messing it up with a comet or some crap. Every time skaven lose it's generally because they manage to hurt themselves or backstab each other for a power grab and therefore ruin their overall goal of conquest with their own personal goal of conquest.

As far as skaven go I think it's pretty hilarious when I think they talked about using blackmail against humans for cheating on each other or something even though they didn't understand the reasons for such behavior or why it was such a big deal to humans.

Anyway I think most of that was off topic except the last bit.

More on topic female skaven are pretty freaking huge and I think they may even use them as mounts into battle as strange as that sounds. I mean imagine jumping on your girlfriend's or wife's shoulders and pointing a finger onward while brandishing a sword. I imagine she'd be more than a little confused.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I think plague monks have breeding rights

But STD!

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
except for an OP lizardmen mage messing it up with a comet or some crap.

I think you meant “except for a goddamn serpent god deciding that rat was on the menu today ”.

Was going to say it's getting off topic but lizardmen are bred through spawnings.

In my skaven army book it said the plague monks tried reclaiming their lost realm in lustria and almost did if not for a fireball. Normally I'd feel bad that plague monks lost their realm to lustria but skaven got something out of the deal even if it cost them many lives, a previous lord of decay, the leader of the plague monks and was only ended on decent terms with many threats and blackmail. Haha skaven are awesome in the lore. If only I could get Lynata into checking them out or fantasy as a whole he/she would probably enjoy it immensely.

Crap I went off topic again. Sorry guys! Anyway lizardmen are sexless I think so that's also really weird.

In warhammer if you want a female army besides sisters of battle you should probably try an elf or eldar faction. They have the most female models overall to my knowledge and quite a few specialized female units 'sisters of averlorn' (high elves), 'sisters of thorn' (wood elves), witch elves (dark elves), wyches (dark eldar), howling banshees (eldar) and quite a few others. Though vampire counts are mostly undead and sex isn't easily able to distinguish on skeletons (at least on a generic model) it can be hard to say they have a female army but they do have a coven throne which is bedecked with hot vampire chicks ;P. That said they're made by british guys so generally it's super tastefully done and everything's in modest proportions unlike the super jiggle boobs of anime and anime figures and the super perfect bodies of some western shows or American shows.

On the topic of plague monks giving STD's I'm actually curious if they actually worship chaos gods such as nurgle. Plague monks are basically nurgle rats however their frenzy and hatred can be like khorne a bit though I don't think they worry about perfection much. It's tough to say but they're so close to being nurgle disciples I almost wonder if they are.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Also, there was actually a mission in Warcraft: Orcs and Humans (AKA Warcraft 1) which involved assassinating Gul'dan's mother. I think it was Gul'dan's mother, anyway. It might have been Medivh's orcish girlfriend.

I did not know that, I only played Warcraft II and Warcraft III. Did she had a specific sprite?

Yes, I think she had red flashes on her shoulders (although it has been years). She did have a unique character portrait though.

Orcs and Humans was designed to be run at 320x240 on VGA graphics though, so there's only so many things you can do to make gender dymorphic sprites.

Edit: Aha, found it. It was Griselda Blackhand, the daughter of the Orc Warchief. The mission was to track her down and kill her for eloping with an Ogre, and her unique sprite consisted of red hair.

What's the source on that stuff about female skaven being huge? Skavenslayer implies that they're actually more numerous than males, with multiple breeders being mentioned as a potential reward.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Crap I went off topic again. Sorry guys! Anyway lizardmen are sexless I think so that's also really weird.

Well, I would not be so sure. The topic of reproduction for lizardmen is usually described as “Thanks to the wisdom of the ancient, the right kind of lizardmen comes out of the spawning pond at the right time”, but really, that does not mean they do not have male and female that just spread their gamete unknowingly through the water.
It is quite hard to tell a male reptile from a female reptile anyway.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The mission was to track her down and kill her for eloping with an Ogre

That is wrong. Honor killing + specism!

It was wrong, yes, but remember, in Orcs and Humans, the Orcs were definitely Evil Monsters.

The actual charges laid against Griselda were treason, since she not only eloped with an ogre, she did so while she was supposed to be on a mission for the Warchief. But since she wasn't exposed to Fel like all the other Orcs, she was theoretically a 'good guy' anyway.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Also, there was actually a mission in Warcraft: Orcs and Humans (AKA Warcraft 1) which involved assassinating Gul'dan's mother. I think it was Gul'dan's mother, anyway. It might have been Medivh's orcish girlfriend.

I did not know that, I only played Warcraft II and Warcraft III. Did she had a specific sprite?

Yes, I think she had red flashes on her shoulders (although it has been years). She did have a unique character portrait though.

Orcs and Humans was designed to be run at 320x240 on VGA graphics though, so there's only so many things you can do to make gender dymorphic sprites.

Edit: Aha, found it. It was Griselda Blackhand, the daughter of the Orc Warchief. The mission was to track her down and kill her for eloping with an Ogre, and her unique sprite consisted of red hair.

What's the source on that stuff about female skaven being huge? Skavenslayer implies that they're actually more numerous than males, with multiple breeders being mentioned as a potential reward.

The skaven army book is the source and it was based on dwarfs that saw it first hand. There is also a picture of a huge skaven female with baby skaven sucking her teets.

Ok I found the picture.



In other news a friend told me current skaven army books were being pulled from the shelves and that was a sign a new army book is coming. I sure hope so. The only rumors I've heard of so far include skaven having flyers but I don't know the validity of the source. Skaven need a lot of options in my opinion.

Well, the fantasy forum is the place to pray for the return of Eshin Sorcerers. heh.

Panic has an all girl flying Dark Eldar army here - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/336125.page