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 brendan wrote:
Support and condolences to OP.

That people with nothing better to do will defend this Zuzzy company's bad behavior is gross and I am embarrassed for them.

When BTP did crap work for Tenebre it was WWIII up in this forum. Now in this case it is a grey area for some because Zuzzy is *openly* shady with their business practices? Or is it because the OP only spent $185 rather than Tenebre's $2,0000,000,000,00.00.

I don't think anybody in the thread is defending Zuzzy,

we all agree it's a pretty rubbish way to run a business, and a pretty rubbish way to treat customers (if you can't keep up with demand shut your website until you catch up)

Where the disagreement lies is some of us believe Zuzzy is just terribly terribly inefficient, and unwilling to communicate, but will, eventually probably deliver the mat(s) ordered (which may well be long after the need/desire for it is gone). Nothing to do but keep bothering them or try civil proceedings if you're got time and money to spare

Others think that Zuzzy is deliberately pulling in money while never intending to fulfil the order. This might also give the option of going for law enforcement, but whether they'd be interested, or take the view above? who knows until somebody tries it

I don't think anybody in the thread is defending Zuzzy,

we all agree it's a pretty rubbish way to run a business, and a pretty rubbish way to treat customers (if you can't keep up with demand shut your website until you catch up)

Where the disagreement lies is some of us believe Zuzzy is just terribly terribly inefficient, and unwilling to communicate, but will, eventually probably deliver the mat(s) ordered (which may well be long after the need/desire for it is gone). Nothing to do but keep bothering them or try civil proceedings if you're got time and money to spare

Others think that Zuzzy is deliberately pulling in money while never intending to fulfil the order. This might also give the option of going for law enforcement, but whether they'd be interested, or take the view above? who knows until somebody tries it

There was some defending at the begining to middle of the thread which doesn't bother me it actually brought up some good points of discussion. But the point of the post is that Zuzzy is getting worse. Historically people eventually received their mats after awhile but now we have folks at a year with no communication. In these cases I am of the opinion that they took our money and we may or may not see anything from it and that its a scam as James Hubbs is basically choosing to do whatever he wants at his discretion he's basically a petty thief in my opinion. I also think some people may continue to get their mats but a lot of us do not. Imo a thief isn't a thief because he steals from everyone you only have to do it once.

Should never take up orders you cannot do, doubt anyone will complain if you said due to backlog we will not be taking orders for a few months so we can clear it.

If you took money, its a contract of sorts to do the job paid for.

Plus reputation is everything to small/online business, stuff posted online, stays online even years later.

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

Yes, but first they need to have the knowledge and skills to do the manufacturing setup, design and prototype the mats, and then start making and selling them, probably putting the work to setting up their own small business in the process.

With Tablescape tiles, Fat Mats, and all the other alternatives, you'd have to have a great idea and a passion to see it through to even consider that kind of effort. We weren't quite so spoiled for choice when Zuzzy first hit the table.

The zero communication is the biggest problem. The only reason I know James Hubbs is still alive is because he updates his personal Facebook account daily. If you want a good laugh check out zuzzy miniatures Facebook account and read the comments. I did the charge back through PayPal and got my money back. Figured I could spend the money on something else

I think I'm outside the chargeback timeframe. I filed a paypal dispute anyway but they make it harder if it isn't eBay related purchase.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

Yes, but first they need to have the knowledge and skills to do the manufacturing setup, design and prototype the mats, and then start making and selling them, probably putting the work to setting up their own small business in the process.

With Tablescape tiles, Fat Mats, and all the other alternatives, you'd have to have a great idea and a passion to see it through to even consider that kind of effort. We weren't quite so spoiled for choice when Zuzzy first hit the table.

It's the same process you would use to cast a resin senic base. Sept your casting it out of rubber, and instead of a base it's a 4x6 table top.

It's not that it's hard to make a zuzzy mat. It's that the moulds must be MASSIVE. The logistics of the casting and storage space is kinda a nightmare once you start thinking about it. Really he should just sold the rights, moulds, and masters to someone eals who can deal with it long ago.

One thing I came across recently that was fascinating was James Hubbs Twitter page. He posts comments many times a day related to his writing pursuits. It's s bit baffling that the folks who actually paid him money he is unapproachable to whether it be by phone, email, social media, or his discussion forum. I appreciate those that have shown support on the facebook community site exposing James as a scam artist.


https://mobile.twitter.com/psyphi

https://m.facebook.com/Zuzzymatsjameshubbs?ref=m_notif¬if_t=page_new_likes&actorid=630649749

What a sleaze.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What a sleaze.

I couldn't have said it better myself

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

I'm sure some one will

Tyron wrote:

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

I'm sure some one will

I doubt it.

Aside from the post above describing how all of it is easy, except for all the hard parts, first you need someone who wants to do this.

Then you need to get someone to design the mats, make the master mold, and then you need space to make them.

Zuzzy has amply demonstrated why this is a project that well exceeds what can be done with a one man garage operation, so you're looking for someone who wants to found their own small company (with all the difficulty that comes attached to that) to make gaming mats. In a market that has become much more spoiled for choice than when Zuzzy first came onto the scene.

It's not impossible, but I find it rather unlikely.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

Tyron wrote:

 Laemos wrote:
Can't someone else start making mats like these? If you can be reliable customers are ready.

I'm sure some one will

I doubt it.

Aside from the post above describing how all of it is easy, except for all the hard parts, first you need someone who wants to do this.

Then you need to get someone to design the mats, make the master mold, and then you need space to make them.

Zuzzy has amply demonstrated why this is a project that well exceeds what can be done with a one man garage operation, so you're looking for someone who wants to found their own small company (with all the difficulty that comes attached to that) to make gaming mats. In a market that has become much more spoiled for choice than when Zuzzy first came onto the scene.

It's not impossible, but I find it rather unlikely.

I don't think you will ever seen a mat like the zuzzy ones. Printing neoprene mats in China then selling them is a lot less work.

I'm looking into which materials to use, although I have the graphic work and manufacturing set up. It's just one of the many projects I need to find the time to release.

Which is the whole problem with Zuzzy - it's too much for time for one man to support as his side business, and why anyone who tried to take Zuzzy's place would need to form a small company to handle it.

Surprising to me that existing small companies in the gaming community haven't already begun producing them, there are several competing in the 2d gaming mat arena, you'd imaging one or two might branch out into the 3d ones.

2D game mats are infinitely simpler to make.

It's a matter of scale - making your own bases or 28mm scale models is relatively easy. Be able to design, mold, and cast something in a 2'x2' 4'x4' or 6'x4' is a lot harder to do than people seem to be appreciating, which is a big reason why Zuzzy fell apart.

I can completely appreciate the difficulty in manually producing large latex gaming mats. And I agree many folks seem to think it should be easy to do. However my beef isn't related to this at all. Once you know your operational constraints you should set your price and conditions around the sale accordingly (i.e. 4-10 weeks delivery.) then if you cannot meet those conditions work with your existing customers to make it right and change the conditions to something you can meet for future sales. I know I know mr obvious... I don't think James Hubbs is beyond understanding this I think he is just operating with a really twisted morale compass to treat paying customers as he does.

From the Zuzzy Miniatures website blog

ZUZZY comes clean . . . an open letter to the community

Greetings ZUZZY customers, gamers, crafters, general hobbyists. Thank you so much for allowing us to be a part of your hobby experience. It isn't often that we get a chance to communicate so directly, but today, we have been given a moment in time to address the community with truth and directness.
Please allow us a moment of your time to apologize for a few things.

1. For our failure to meet your expectations . . . expectations we generated by a promise to deliver our product in a timely manner.
2. For our failure to communicate adequately.
3. For waiting so long to do so.

The reasons are many and convoluted, fraught with twists and turns, and unexpected pitfalls. The results have been unbearable for you the consumers, and also for Jim and myself as the producers. We promised the product within a four to twelve week period depending on location and items ordered. We have failed for many of you, and we are sorry for your inconvenience. That failure at this time has translated to a ten month wait for some of you. Many of you have decided that is too long.

Over the past seven months you expressed your concerns. Early on we regularly corresponded in emails. We made promises and predictions which we truly believed were accurate. Throughout 2014 unexpected events took place, causing us to stumble. They were personal events that had injurious effects on ZUZZY's production. The word went out that we were ignoring you. And our silence generated distrust. Many demanded their money back, and rightly so. Payments came in, payments were withdrawn. Jim and I tried to pay back as many as we could, promising delivery to those willing to wait.

Unfortunately our word was undermined by unforeseen events in our lives. It appeared to the community that we were scoundrels. This has brought us to this juncture. Now, we willfully place ourselves in a light that most are not willing to stand beneath. The judgment of the community.

You are the reason that we can exist at all. This we are quite aware of. We do this work because we are one of you. We are gamers—not unscrupulous individuals planning our next heist. We are just two guys, artists, that had a vision. We implemented that vision and then faced some very awful personal tragedies that we will not discuss here. These hazards are the reason we put forth our apology.

Today we will discuss the crazy uncle, chained in the attic, that no one really likes to talk about. Everyone metaphorically has someone or something in their lives that brings this shame. It can come in many guises and try as we might, hiding it away only creates larger and larger problems for the individual. So, today, since we have time, this will be the second point of our entry.

ZUZZY Miniatures is struggling. Yes, there it is. The truth and our shame—Kevin and Jim are exhausted.

Your responses may be as follows: Who cares! I ordered my stuff 10 months ago and I still don't have it. You took my money 10 months ago and I still have nothing! My son's birthday is tomorrow—I ordered this two weeks ago and I expect this on my son”s birthday table! My store ordered seventy mats from you two weeks ago and my customers want their mats! I am spamming your email every two minutes until you answer why my mat is not sitting on my front door! I ordered a month ago it's not here and I expect your answer immediately! All of these complaints are valid.

Your demand for this product has outstripped our ability to produce it on a timely basis.

The logical response to this is: Well, you should be so lucky! Who bemoans or complains about such a boon?

So, before I continue, let me say this: In our seven year history, we have never taken someone's money and willfully not supplied them with the product they purchased. Our crime is that the customer had to wait until we could produce it for them.

Yes, let me be clear. The customer had to wait until we could produce the product for them.

In the early days, we had a surplus of every item. But as time went on, our surplus was depleted. And today, there is no vast warehouse where our mats and resin pieces reside, waiting to be hand-picked off the shelves for our faithful customers. Like many small businesses, we have become a product on demand operation. This is due to four factors: demand, space, time, and human labor. And this has been our crime—our inability to immediately meet demand. (And today, being unable to answer all of your inquiries.) In our wildest dreams we never knew how much of an impact our product would have on the gaming community. Up until now it's been a powerful, wonderful experience, and we love you all for it.

But today everything must change. Our gaming family needs to understand what we require from you as a customer, so no more injury can be incurred by either party. You or us. Success can be a tenuous thing, but success laced with practicality makes for a stable foundation. We need your help in order for us both to thrive. What we require is simple. We truly know what you require from us—a wonderful product delivered to your door when you need it. In the latter we have failed and this is where we need your help. We require your patience and understanding, and most of all your forgiveness. We truly do want you to have the best experience from ordering our product, after all, it's what benefits us both.

And here is where we come clean: At this juncture, if you order our product, you must understand that we can not provide it within a few days. This has become an impossibility.

Our policy is 4 to 12 weeks. This already translates to as long as three months wait time. We've always been straight forward about this. And in the past we've been able to meet that proviso with a few bumps along the way. But today, right now, things have become more difficult for us, and as many of you know, to our chagrin, you are having to wait longer. We are sorry for this, and as always trying to work on this problem and solve it forever. But like anything worth waiting for this too will take time.

Our promise to you: We will fill your order. At this time, you will have to wait longer—perhaps a few days over the proviso, perhaps a few weeks, perhaps a few months. If you can not wait please do not order. When a time arrives when we can fill your orders faster, we will let you know this, by expressing this on our media outlets. Until that time, understand that you will have to wait. We have no choice in this matter.

For those that can not wait and have moved on, you require your money back. We also promise that we will return it to you. We want you to be happy. But because of our current situation, this will also take some time. If you feel you must bring legal action against us, that is your choice. You have every right to that action. We want you to be happy. You are the community that made us.

Now again what we ask of you: Patience, and understanding, for this condition we find ourselves in. Please do not order and then pull your money back out. You can not imagine how much damage this causes. Only order if you love the product and can wait for it. Please.

Again, what we can promise at this time:

To continue producing ZUZZY mats and accessories.
To solve our production problems as quickly as possible.
To notify you weekly on our media outlets where we are in our production schedule. (This will include regular updates on Facebook and our other websites.)

To do our utmost to get those who have already made purchases their product. And resolve any outstanding charge backs by disgruntled customers.
To usher in a new era for ZUZZY and its valued customers.
We fully understand the commitment you have made by entering into a purchase contract with us. Your money has been hard earned and you've chosen us as part of the joy you receive from your free-time and entertainments. You have earned this and you have earned the best possible experience for your labors. And this is why we want you to enter this fully knowing our commitment, what we can do and what we can not do. So you can make your purchases from us in an informed manner.
It has been a joy being a part of the gaming community and being allowed to participate in its ever growing expansion. We hope to be able to participate for years to come, and appreciate greatly all you have done as a community by welcoming ZUZZY within it.

Best Regards Always!
Kevin and Jim

Wow that was an extremely long winded apology apparently written by someone in the mid-19th century England.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
Wow that was an extremely long winded apology apparently written by someone in the mid-19th century England.

At least he is not blaming it on floods....

At a guess - that was not his first attempt at writing an apology for this mess, with the result of becoming stilted in the process. (Since I often write that way myself, I can well understand the mechanism....)

That said - he is accepting responsibility, if belatedly.

He is not just closing up shop and leaving people without their goods.

It looks like the best thing to do is not order from them until they catch up with back orders.

If it sounds like I am being overly forgiving... I should mention that I am the proud owner of a Heresy Dragon. It took years for them to get my dragon to me! (For the record - one thing that the folks at Heresy never failed on was communication. There were forum posts chronicling every painful step of the process. Also - for the record - it is an awesome dragon, even if it nearly drove him crazy.)

The Auld Grump

What a load of bs. "Your order will be fulfilled. Maybe tomorrow, maaaaaaaybe next week or maybe, just maybe a few months from now."

Zuzzy should stop taking orders until they are caught up. Also the money seems like it's being spent before the order is fulfilled which is not good practice. That money should be in their PayPal account untouched until the order is shipped.

I thought it a good idea to update the thread since this is the first formal communication to its customers since I ordered my mats last June. I did end up getting a refund so my situation is resolved. However don't think it was as simple as asking for one lol.... It took a lot to get my money back. I do think any attempt at communication and owning up to this with some sort of plan is better than it has been which is complete radio silence up until now.

Unfortunately the letter to customers is ineffectual and in the scheme of business is garbage.

They saw that on-hand stock was diminishing, no steps were taken.

On-hand stock ran out, no steps were taken.

They have not taken (or failed to mention) any steps to be able to increase production capacity:
This is a decision to customer detriment they have chosen.

"Our policy is 4 to 12 weeks", have to assume that means "lead time".
Is this prior policy or new?
So is the policy of half up front or the entire price?
Will be difficult with something like PayPal to ask for a refund if they decide to stretch things out further.

"Until that time, understand that you will have to wait. We have no choice in this matter." I claim total BS on this.
There is choice, unless there is zero money to rub together but how can you receive so much money and have this trouble?
Only way I could see this being "real" is they completely messed up on total cost of product to produce vs what was asked for payment.
Some simple accounting math would have figured out that problem and prices should have been bumped accordingly.

"If you feel you must bring legal action against us, that is your choice. You have every right to that action. We want you to be happy. You are the community that made us."
What the heck is this??
I am not sure what message is trying to be said here.
We want you to be happy, wait or sue, whatever floats your boat?
It seems to say that you waiting or suing us makes no difference... what is going on?
Why would anyone place ANY orders from them at this point?

These two items are the most critical right here:

"Again, what we can promise at this time:
To solve our production problems as quickly as possible."
No mention AT ALL of the production problems, how can there be "patience and understanding": fire, flood, theft, vandalism, tooling damage, anything at all some sympathy could be generated, but not with this ineffectual drivel.

"To notify you weekly on our media outlets where we are in our production schedule. (This will include regular updates on Facebook and our other websites.)"
This is where the last forlorn hope for them resides.
If the schedule contains a sequential order with some traceable invoice number and maybe the customer's first name only listed with status I would say they may actually be trying.
I have suspicion their production schedule will be as effective as their recent entreaty to the community.

"Usher in a new era for Zuzzy..." I am just in awe of how misguided / delusional this sounds.

This seems like the same story I have seen a dozen times in recent years: a small company sees unexpected demand and struggles with rapid growth to meet demand. You can see kickstarter threads for similar cases. Managing success is becoming a real problem for cottage businesses in the greater tabletop gaming industry. I hope the guys at Zuzzy can regroup and get things back on track by the end of the year. I really feel for them, struggling because their product is too well loved for them to get it to every prospective customer.

What makes me less empathetic is that they saw the problem coming months ago when their stock levels shrank. I do not understand why Zuzzy would not prepare for the coming storm and alter their process to accommodate larger demand. I understand that they must have physical bottlenecks with molds but everything else should be reorganized to maximize mold time.

I am inclined to agree with above posters. Zuzzy needs to stop taking orders until they have 100% compliance with their 12 week order policy and they can handle several more orders coming in at once. It may be a death knell to the company to cut off income but in that apology I saw no change mentioned and no reassurance of improvement. They are going to get nowhere juggling schedules and hoping orders come in at a pace they can handle. Their production must change somewhere.

They should shut up shop and take no more orders til they get their act together and give people their money or the mate they OWE them

I applaud them (finally) coming forward and saying something.

That said, there's a lot, a WHOLE LOT, of very thinly veiled customer blaming in that open letter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PalmerC wrote:
I thought it a good idea to update the thread since this is the first formal communication to its customers since I ordered my mats last June. I did end up getting a refund so my situation is resolved. However don't think it was as simple as asking for one lol.... It took a lot to get my money back. I do think any attempt at communication and owning up to this with some sort of plan is better than it has been which is complete radio silence up until now.

Could you expound PalmerC ? If you feel comfortable. I'd be interested in just how much time / effort it took to get a refund. Did you end up having to get LE involved (i'm thinking no)?

 Haight wrote:
I applaud them (finally) coming forward and saying something.

Problem for me is that they say very little of how they plan to remedy things other than the obvious "we are making your stuff".

That said, there's a lot, a WHOLE LOT, of very thinly veiled customer blaming in that open letter.

The only blaming they make to customers is (my reading between the lines): Only order stuff with the understanding that things could take a quarter of a year to be made and even then with no guarantees and do not ask for refunds: it somehow REALLY messes us up."

No commitment to a plan of making it better.
A whole bunch of reading between the lines (paraphrase/conjecture):
"We love you community but will do nothing to better meet your needs."
"We want your understanding and tolerance of how we have decided to run our business at our convenience, not yours."
"We may decide to experience the occasional communication black-out with no explanation."

They really are not serious about continuing the business or are in some really bad denial.
If swamped for orders, ramp-up production, increase product billable price, do good customer service or the orders will slow down well enough.

This is just not the behavior of someone who is... well in their thinking.

 Haight wrote:



Could you expound PalmerC ? If you feel comfortable. I'd be interested in just how much time / effort it took to get a refund. Did you end up having to get LE involved (i'm thinking no)?

A lot of what I did is documented on this thread one of the biggest things was creating a facebook community which I put content on for a couple of months. Most if not all the content I put up has since been removed once I was refunded. I have let another member of the site take over as admin and do with it what he wishes. One of the biggest things was a social media campaign to raise awareness on Twitter. I have removed everything I did once I was refunded. I don't want to R eally go into any more specifics because it's just dirty laundry at this point but I should not have had to take things where I felt I needed to but in the end I did in order to get resolution on my purchase. I'm just glad it's all over and that they are taking positive steps at least in the communication area for those still waiting.