Zagman's Balance Errata: Codex: Orks and Codex: Tyranids

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**Terror from the Deep**

Haruspex is 5W

**Zagman**

Terror from the Deep wrote:The riptide is the worst CC MC in the game and a Haruspex (a dedicated CC MC) barely beats it, what odds are there of it actually causing enough wounds to force a sweep? If a riptide has FNP then even with additional attacks it only causes 0.76 wounds!

It is all moot anyway as a Haruspex would never catch a riptide to get into CC in the first place

And even using just base cost cost the Haruspex is 3/4 the Riptides cost. With FNP its under 2/3 cost. It still wins and under most circumstances will come out of the combat with more wounds than it started with. More times that not a Haruspex that had 3-4 wounds left would come out of combat with a Riptide or most units with more wounds than it started with. Whether it sweeps the Riptide or not, it will win the combat, usually come out fully healed or with more wounds than it started with, and does it and is quite a bit cheaper.

Though getting a chance to look at the Haruspex a bit closer it does need something more. I don't know if I want to give it 4 Attacks or if I wan't to drop its price down to 120, or give it 6 Wounds. Any one of those would put it right where it needed to be. My initial price point of 135 was still a bit high after a 25pt discount.

**tag8833**

Zagman wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
It all depends on the cost.
The Haruspex at 135 would be taken. It is a significant investment in terms of firepower to get rid of it.

If i can force a target that requires you to focus fire with a good chunk of your army for a total cost that is 7.2% of my army then it's ok.

Things don't necessarily need to remove enemy models to be useful in a game.

Edit: The problem is not in the high strength, an haruspex survives 6 missilesides firing at it. The problem is grav, which IMHO is a design mistake.
It takes 5 unbuffed missiles sides. Also a Riptide beats it in close combat. For 5 points more than a Dread Knight you are getting a slow MC that loses to most other MC's in close combat, and has a fraction of the damage output. I'm still not seeing it.

A dread knight does everything a Haruspex does better and cheaper. Why would I ever look at a Haruspex as a good usage of points in that context?

You are way off saying a a Riptide bests it in close Combat.

Riptide has 3 attacks, hits on 4s, wounds on 4. .75 Wounds
Haruspex has 3 attacks, hits on 3s, wounds on 3, and generates additional attacks. .88 Wounds through 5++ 1.14 Wounds after additional attacks.

Meaning on average the Haruspex heals more wounds than it receives. The Haruspex is Fearless and averages winning combat, with a Higher initiative it also is likely to seep the Riptide. The Haruspex wins even if we assume the Riptide gets its NovaShield every round.

That is possibly true on paper but not in game. The Riptide is significantly faster than the Haruspex. The Haruspex's bonus attacks only happen if it gets the charge, and only in the 1st round. Here is the rule:

Spoiler:

Because the riptide is faster, the Haruspex probably won't get the charge. If we assume the Riptide is charging it means the Riptide has to shoot at the Haruspex. So it is going to looking something like this.

Riptide nova changes invul (if fail it jumps away onto terrain), and Tau shooting takes the haruspex down to 1 wound so it dies to either overwatch or 1 round of combat where the riptide swings 1st.
Riptide shoots. SMS does 0.33 HBC does 0.67 wounds. IA does 1 wound. So Best case for the Haruspex, it is down to 4 wounds when the riptide charges.
HOW: 0.17 wounds. Haruspex goes 1st. 3 Attacks. .44 wounds. Then the riptide swings. 1 Wound.
Next round of combat. Haruspex does .44 wounds to the riptide. Riptide does 0.75 back.

Now comes the Riptides 1st real risk. It has to make a Nova charge. If it makes it, it wins after 3-4 more rounds of combat. If it fails, then it might have to make a leadership test. If it fails that leadership test it could be run down. Otherwise it wins that combat.

There is one complication to that, not factored in. The Haruspex can get wounds back via this rule:

Spoiler:

That is why the Riptide usually just dances around the Haruspex until it is down to 1 wound.

A Riptide is better at shooting than CC, so it usually doesn't want to mix it up with a Haruspex. But if it does, it tends to come out on top. I've lost several Haruspex's to riptides in CC, and I can only remember 1 time when a Haruspex killed a riptide, and it double teamed it with a carnifex. I don't think a Riptide is a great comparison to a Haruspex, because it is a shooting platform, that is why I pushed the dread knight comparison. A Haruspex is definitely a CC unit, just not a very good one against many things.

One thing to note about the Haruspex is that its base cost isn't what it actually costs. It will always take Adrenal Glands. It needs fleet so incredibly badly to accomplish anything, plus furious charge ups it to S8 on the charge which makes it a serious threat to crisis suites.

ETA: Riptides generally beat flyrants in CC as well. Because usually the flyrant is down to 2 wounds by the time of the assault (1 for what made it take grounding, 1 for being grounded).

**Zagman**

My mistake, The Haruspex does not gain additional attacks beyond the charge. It doesn't tchange that you were wrong when you said it is worse in CC than a Riptide, it isn't. In fact it is quite a bit better in CC.

How many times do I have to say, vaccuum direct comparisons are of little use. Having a Haruspex and a Riptide square off against each other in a Vaacum tells us little. But, on a battle field when the Haruspex will devour any Tau unit it assault, usually sweeping them in a single turn it has far more other targets. It also controls a large area of the board despite being slow and does require a large amount of firepower to put down.

Both units have uses. In CC the Haruspex wins, its cheaper and it will win the combat eventually most of the time. Once you don't assume always having a 3++ up or that the Riptide has every advantage, not being wounded, wounding the Haruspex, getting the charge... not failing its Nova, etc. Haruspex benefits from Adrenal Glands, it does not need them. Fleet is very helpful, but needing S8 to take otu Crisis is a joke, the Haruspex does that and sweeps the squads(barring drone I4) easily and generally heals for the effort.

You cannot assume the Riptide always has its 3++ up. You can't always assume the Riptide has the charge. You can't always assume the Haruspex is the biggest threat. Also, by turn 3 the Haruspex can effectively threaten the entire back of the board with assault, meaning the Riptide will either be pinned against the board edge, or forced to move towards other threats. The table is not infinite in size. Sure, one on one the Ripide will just dance away and kill the Haruspex, it'll kite it around the board and shoot it to death. Awesome, that vacuum scenario tells us nothing about balance. Good thing we don't just have Riptides and Haruspex on open infinite tables. We play games. The Haruspex will gladly assault a Riptide given the chance, or anything else it gets in range meaning the entire Tau army was redeploying due to the threat of a single model.

I guarantee I've played Riptides more than you've played against them and not once do I every recall them winning a combat against an MC opponent... well that is a lie... once I doubled out a DP thanks to being stubborn with an attached BuffCommander in 6th... and I did assault and sweep another Riptide thanks to having Farsight attached in 6th...

And did you miss the part where I said the Haruspex is still overcosted, or needs another boost? It went from 160, 175 with Adrenal Glands to 135/145 already, a 16% discount already, which helped but wasn't quite enough.

The Dreadknight isn't a fair CC comparison as it is pretty much one of the best CC MCs in the game and excels at killing other MCs.

I don't care if a Riptide has a chance of finishing off a 1W Hive Tyrant.... that is such an obscure vaccuum example it doesn't matter. The Riptide also has very good odds of being swept by the Hive Tyrant. Hits on 5s, wounds on 4s, even with the charge it averages .66 wounds with its 4 attacks, .5 wounds if it doesn't have the charge while the Hive Tyrant averages .88 wounds through a 5++ and 1.1 on the charge. If the Hive Tyrant wins, it is virtually assured to sweep the Riptide.

**tag8833**

Zagman wrote:
I don't care if a Riptide has a chance of finishing off a 1W Hive Tyrant.... that is such an obscure vaccuum example it doesn't matter. The Riptide also has very good odds of being swept by the Hive Tyrant. Hits on 5s, wounds on 4s, even with the charge it averages .66 wounds with its 4 attacks, .5 wounds if it doesn't have the charge while the Hive Tyrant averages .88 wounds through a 5++ and 1.1 on the charge. If the Hive Tyrant wins, it is virtually assured to sweep the Riptide.

I'm pretty confident that I'm played Hive Tyrants more than you've played against them, and I can count on 1 hand the number of times that a dakka flyrant killed a riptide in CC. I would estimate that I've lost at least 30 flyrants to riptides in CC. I know this isn't an isolated experience because it is a regular discussion among Tyranid players how often Flyrants get killed in CC by Riptides. Often the Riptide Tarpits it, and is joined by additional riptides or suites, but even without that the fact that flyrants generally have 2 or less wounds, and riptides generally have 5 when the combat happens is why the wounds per round isn't very convincing. A riptide with LD 9 is not likely to get swept by a Tyrant who is generally going to win combat by only 1 wound. If the Tyrant wins then the Riptide still has a 72% chance of making its leadership. I'm thinking back to when I last swept a riptide. The last 2 riptides I swept was multi-assaulting 2 of them with a Riptide and a crisis Suite team that included buffmander and some drones. I've swept riptides quite a number of times using multi-assaults involving suites, drones, or firewarriros. Gargoyles, and Orks pull it off occasionally. Never done it with a flyrant, unless you count the Skytyrant formation in multi-assaults, and I don't think I've ever done it without a multi-assault. If you've got some trick that allows your riptides to get swept all of the time fill me in.

You critique me for considering things in a vaccuum and then insist that out of context math tells you more than realistic gameplay scenarios. For instance, if you assume that a Flyrant is getting charged without 1st getting grounding you are creating such an unlikely scenario that it is a pretty poor basis for drawing a conclusion.

**Zagman**

tag8833 wrote:
Zagman wrote:
I don't care if a Riptide has a chance of finishing off a 1W Hive Tyrant.... that is such an obscure vaccuum example it doesn't matter. The Riptide also has very good odds of being swept by the Hive Tyrant. Hits on 5s, wounds on 4s, even with the charge it averages .66 wounds with its 4 attacks, .5 wounds if it doesn't have the charge while the Hive Tyrant averages .88 wounds through a 5++ and 1.1 on the charge. If the Hive Tyrant wins, it is virtually assured to sweep the Riptide.

I'm pretty confident that I'm played Hive Tyrants more than you've played against them, and I can count on 1 hand the number of times that a dakka flyrant killed a riptide in CC. I would estimate that I've lost at least 30 flyrants to riptides in CC. I know this isn't an isolated experience because it is a regular discussion among Tyranid players how often Flyrants get killed in CC by Riptides. Often the Riptide Tarpits it, and is joined by additional riptides or suites, but even without that the fact that flyrants generally have 2 or less wounds, and riptides generally have 5 when the combat happens is why the wounds per round isn't very convincing. A riptide with LD 9 is not likely to get swept by a Tyrant who is generally going to win combat by only 1 wound. If the Tyrant wins then the Riptide still has a 72% chance of making its leadership. I'm thinking back to when I last swept a riptide. The last 2 riptides I swept was multi-assaulting 2 of them with a Riptide and a crisis Suite team that included buffmander and some drones. I've swept riptides quite a number of times using multi-assaults involving suites, drones, or firewarriros. Gargoyles, and Orks pull it off occasionally. Never done it with a flyrant, unless you count the Skytyrant formation in multi-assaults, and I don't think I've ever done it without a multi-assault. If you've got some trick that allows your riptides to get swept all of the time fill me in.

You critique me for considering things in a vaccuum and then insist that out of context math tells you more than realistic gameplay scenarios. For instance, if you assume that a Flyrant is getting charged without 1st getting grounding you are creating such an unlikely scenario that it is a pretty poor basis for drawing a conclusion.

The problem is your "real world scenario" involved the Tau player devoting considerable resources to ground a Tyrant, and charging in or being charged while virtually unhurt. It is not a fair assessment.... because we can not assign values to what happened to that point. What did the Flyrant accomplish prior to that... etc. Putting a Riptide in a ideal situation and a Flyrant in a non ideal situation is not a fair comparison.

My trick to getting Riptides swept in CC.... getting them into combat with virtually anything.... and having only 3 Attacks at WS2/1 and LD9. My Riptides have lost far more combats than they've won. Occasionally they have survived longer than they should have or are useful to tarpit some units, but they've never wracked up anything productive in CC. And being in CC virtually ensures they aren't being effective. I've had Riptides swept by naked assault marines... that I charged. Shot 5 ASM, killed 2, charged in, killed one, two rounds of combat later I was swept by the two marines that were left.

Lost 30 Flyrants to Riptides in CC?? Are you kidding me? No way I believe that. Even if you lost one per game, that is still 30 games... only way that could happen is if Tau was your regular opponent and you played multiple games per week. Even even if Tau was 1/4 of your games, and you lost a Flyrant in CC in every single game.... that is still averaging 2 games every week and require 1/4 of those games to be against Tau, and for a Flyrant to lose CC vs a Flyrant in CC every single game. I think 30 is a wild exaggeration.

**tag8833**

Zagman wrote:
The problem is your "real world scenario" involved the Tau player devoting considerable resources to ground a Tyrant, and charging in or being charged while virtually unhurt. It is not a fair assessment.... because we can not assign values to what happened to that point. What did the Flyrant accomplish prior to that... etc. Putting a Riptide in a ideal situation and a Flyrant in a non ideal situation is not a fair comparison.

If a dakka Flyrant is charging a riptide, it is because it was grounded. The Tyranid player may have initiated the charge, because a Burstide is far more effective shooting at Tyranids than a Dakkaflyrant is shooting at Tau.

Zagman wrote:
Lost 30 Flyrants to Riptides in CC?? Are you kidding me? No way I believe that. Even if you lost one per game, that is still 30 games... only way that could happen is if Tau was your regular opponent and you played multiple games per week. Even even if Tau was 1/4 of your games, and you lost a Flyrant in CC in every single game.... that is still averaging 2 games every week and require 1/4 of those games to be against Tau, and for a Flyrant to lose CC vs a Flyrant in CC every single game. I think 30 is a wild exaggeration.

I am a prolific player. In a normal week I play 5 games. 1 Tuesday (tourney prep), 3 Saturday (General Gaming / RTTs), 1 Sunday or Friday (Campaign). Tau is definitely 20% of my opponents with 3 local tau players being prolific, and Tau being a pretty common faction at RTTs. I actually tracked my opponents for 3 months at the start of the year. It was a little more than 50% Tau and Eldar. More Tau at RTTs more Eldar at GTs, I find. I started playing Orks in March, and now I alternate between Orks and Nids. Prior to that Tyranids were my primary army. The 3rd most common army I've played in 40k is Tau, but I play that primarily to tourney prep my team, so we are talking maybe 15 games ever.

My estimate of 30 goes back to 6th edition when I started Tyranids. In 6th flyrants got shot to death more often rather than living long enough to be assaulted. Against my most common Tau opponent I tend to get CCed by a riptide every other game or a little more often. Any chance I get, I always try to Tarpit his skyfire burtstide with ECPA, so I initiate lots of those charges. It is rare to lose 2 flyrants to riptide CC in a single game, but it does happen. I can only remember losing 3 once, and it was a fluke because they all 3 grounded on the same turn right next to riptides. Our lists change depending on what tourney we are prepping for, but I almost always run 3 flyrants, and he almost always has a skyfire burtstide with ECPA, and 2 Ion tides. Against other tau opponent's I usually limit myself to 2 flyrants or less, but they've played me enough to recognize that Riptides are an effective killer of flyrants in CC, and I generally realize that Flyrants are an effective tarpit of riptides, and give me one of my few opportunities to ever kill one. I figured I lost a flyrant to a Riptide in CC roughly every other week. There have been Roughly 75 weeks since Jan of 2014, so I rounded down to 30, because I wasn't running as many flyrants back then. I've definitely lost a Flyrant to CC vs a Riptide twice in 2 weeks. Though one was a demo game where I was talking a new player through it, and had to convince him to charge. Like you, he had taken a look at the stats and concluded that a Riptide was no match for a flyrant, and he would be right, except flyrants are so good at helping you kill them via grounding and perils.

I'm still waiting for that mythical beast of sweeping a riptide with a flyrant. Never happened yet, but I always hope for it. I've definitely won combat for a round, but generally the flyrant is entering with 2 or fewer wounds, and the Riptide is full wounds, because there is no reason to shoot at a riptide while other things remain, and so he only gets 2-3 rounds of CC, and almost always loses the last one. It still usually makes sense for me to charge. I don't care about losing flyrants if I win the game, and usually wins against Tau require me to Tarpit a Riptide.

**tag8833**

Here is a Typical example of how flyrants play. I took 3 to a tourney today. In game 1, I lost the 1st one to perils, grounding, and getting assaulted by a Dread Knight. I lost a 2nd in assault to a strike squad when I landed to score an objective. In game 2, I lost all 3 on the ground turn 1 to 54 scat bikes. In game 3, I lost 1 shot out of the sky (grounding took the last wound), and 1 was grounded and assaulted and killed by flash gitz.

3 games. 7 of a possible 9 dead flyrants. 3 of them died to assault, 2 of them after failing a grounding. It is how the unit works. Typically I lose a lower percentage of my flyrants, but typically I lose a majority of them to assault, and don't get alpha struck off the table. It was a team event, no Tau in Attendance. (game 1: 30 Scat bikes + Grey Knights, Game 2: 54 Scat bikes, game 3: 24 Scat bikes + Orks).

I also had 2 crones in my list. I lost 5 of 6 possible. 2 to alphstrikes before they got airborne, and 2 when they landed to score objectives (1 shot, 1 Killed in assault by an Autarch), and 1 shot out of the air.

**Spoletta**

Ok let's tackle the issue of the walking MC. I'd do something like that.

An MC to be useful in the game needs at least one of the following three:

1) Ranged firepower (no less than 24")
2) Mobility
3) Durability

Point 3 is what is actually lacking.

I'd go for the following:

1) Haruspex to 6W and built in Adrenal glands. Covers the hybrid role. Reasonably mobile, reasonably durable, a short ranged attack and some tricks once in CC. For 135 can see play.

2) Carnifex to 95 points base. Add an upgrade for 20 points that increases R by 1. Either you build him for slow durability and get a 115 point model at R7 3+, or you build him with long ranged options and keep him at R6.

3) Heavy venom cannon to Assault 2. Heavy spine cannon to AP4.

4) Toxicrene to 6W and i still think that it should be reduced in price.

5) Regeneration cost depending on the host, after all it's efficacy varies a lot with the model.: Carnifex 10 points, all the 6W 3+ MC 15 points, TFex 25 points.

**Dakkamite**

In addition, Ghazghkull and all other models in his unit that are equipped with mega armour lose the Slow and Purposeful special rule(which is conferred by wearing Mega Armour) and gain the Relentless Special Rule instead."

Just want to confirm, is the change from S&P to Relentless during the WAAAGH only or at all times if you field Ghaz as the warlord?

Edit:

Also, I know this errata isn't suppost to cover Forgeworld, but I'm wondering if you could do an off the cuff fix for "Cybork Slashaz" from Dread Mob

Currently they are as Nobz, except cybork bodies are mandatory and they cannot take warbikes, and they pay 5 points each to roll on a special table at the start of the game . They can still take a painboy due to being released before the new edition, which I preseume would be removed (though it would make sense going on fluff - they were made by painboys after all)

Roll a d3 on the random cybork slasha table at the start of the game to determine what they get;

~Turbo Killaz; Fleet, Move through Cover, Hammer of Wrath. Running and charging causes a dangerous terrain test.
~Tinboy Brute: +1 Toughness but Slow and Purposeful
~Short Circuit: Select either of the above, but each turn roll a d6 - on a 1 it cannot do anything for the turn.

I'm presuming just make them 19pts instead of 30, which is essentially the new price of Nobz + the difference between Nobz and Slashaz, though I don't know if that random table is worth 5ppm

**Cytharai**

LighthouseM and I got in a test game using the BRB, Tau, and Tyranid erratas. 1850 points and just used Crusade mission to keep it simple. We both tried to bring "normal" competitive lists without changing too much for this game, just to see what the differences would be to lists that you would have been seeing before. Writeup complete.

Abridged Batrep
Army lists (approximate)

Spoiler:

Summary Batrep

Spoiler:

**Zagman**

@tag
I don't understand how you've never swept a Riptide in CC with a Flyrant if they've ended up in CC often enough. The Hive Tyrant averages more damage per turn, and it should take two turns for the Riptide to deal a wound to the Tyrant, whereas the Tyrant most likely deals 1W per turn. Every round of combat the Flyrant wins there is a 28% chance of that the Riptide fails its LD and its I2 vs I5 means there is something like a 92% chance that the Tyrant sweeps the Riptide. Tyrant should either tie for win most rounds of CC, and masically 1/4 wins should sweep the Riptide. I have absolutely no explaination as to how you've never swept them. Or how your Flyrants are being grounded and assaulted to readily.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Ok let's tackle the issue of the walking MC. I'd do something like that.

An MC to be useful in the game needs at least one of the following three:

1) Ranged firepower (no less than 24")
2) Mobility
3) Durability

Point 3 is what is actually lacking.

I'd go for the following:

1) Haruspex to 6W and built in Adrenal glands. Covers the hybrid role. Reasonably mobile, reasonably durable, a short ranged attack and some tricks once in CC. For 135 can see play.

2) Carnifex to 95 points base. Add an upgrade for 20 points that increases R by 1. Either you build him for slow durability and get a 115 point model at R7 3+, or you build him with long ranged options and keep him at R6.

3) Heavy venom cannon to Assault 2. Heavy spine cannon to AP4.

4) Toxicrene to 6W and i still think that it should be reduced in price.

5) Regeneration cost depending on the host, after all it's efficacy varies a lot with the model.: Carnifex 10 points, all the 6W 3+ MC 15 points, TFex 25 points.

I believe its Durability/Cost whcih is the main issue. I think just dropping the Haruspex down to 120pts will be enough. The Carnifex at 100pts isn't bad, maybe it could be a few points cheaper. Uptting Toughness and adding new options isn't what I really want to be doing, but for some MCs repricing with T7 would have been good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dakkamite wrote:
In addition, Ghazghkull and all other models in his unit that are equipped with mega armour lose the Slow and Purposeful special rule(which is conferred by wearing Mega Armour) and gain the Relentless Special Rule instead."

Just want to confirm, is the change from S&P to Relentless during the WAAAGH only or at all times if you field Ghaz as the warlord?

Edit:

Also, I know this errata isn't suppost to cover Forgeworld, but I'm wondering if you could do an off the cuff fix for "Cybork Slashaz" from Dread Mob

Currently they are as Nobz, except cybork bodies are mandatory and they cannot take warbikes, and they pay 5 points each to roll on a special table at the start of the game . They can still take a painboy due to being released before the new edition, which I preseume would be removed (though it would make sense going on fluff - they were made by painboys after all)

Roll a d3 on the random cybork slasha table at the start of the game to determine what they get;

~Turbo Killaz; Fleet, Move through Cover, Hammer of Wrath. Running and charging causes a dangerous terrain test.
~Tinboy Brute: +1 Toughness but Slow and Purposeful
~Short Circuit: Select either of the above, but each turn roll a d6 - on a 1 it cannot do anything for the turn.

I'm presuming just make them 19pts instead of 30, which is essentially the new price of Nobz + the difference between Nobz and Slashaz, though I don't know if that random table is worth 5ppm

That is anytime Ghaz is in the unit. So MA is a go with him around.

That is pretty much exactly how I would price them.

Cytharai wrote:LighthouseM and I got in a test game using the BRB, Tau, and Tyranid erratas. 1850 points and just used Crusade mission to keep it simple. We both tried to bring "normal" competitive lists without changing too much for this game, just to see what the differences would be to lists that you would have been seeing before. Will be doing a writeup in this space soon.

That is awesome, definitely link the writeup and give me your thoughts about the pre and post errata games. Thanks!!!

**Cytharai**

Batrep completed in my previous post.

**Zagman**

Cytharai wrote:
Batrep completed in my previous post.

How did this game compare to other similar games between you two? How did the Errata impact the game in your opinion?

Thanks again!

**tag8833**

Cytharai wrote:
I put a lictor in the tau deployment zone near his missilesides, guiding that mawloc in to kill 2 missilesides and clearing just enough room to show up on the board. The other lictor comes in next to my malanthrope to guide the other mawloc into the crisis suits. This mawloc strips 4-5 wounds off the squad, failing to kill the commander or clear enough room to come in.

A minor note, the rule lictors use to guide in Mawlocs:

Spoiler:

**Cytharai**

Pheromone Trail
If a friendly unit from Codex: Tyranids arrives on the battlefield via Deep Strike, it will not scatter so long as the first model in the unit is placed within 6" of a model with this special rule. Note that the model with the Pheromone Trail special rule must already be on the table at the start of the turn for this ability to be used.

I asked our local TO how he ruled this, and he said that at the time when something arrives from reserves it's considered to be "on the table" for any other stuff that comes in after it (obviously houserule/interpretation). I actually forgot that lictors had this special stipulation, so I'm unsure if he would have said the same in this case. In the past I've only run unguided mawlocs, so this was also a derp on my part. (I haven't played much 40k lately, the Eldar release literally made me box up my Iyanden and put them in the garage).

The game itself went ok I thought. Flyrants in the air with a good roll on Iron Arm are REALLY durable, flyrants without iron arm on the other hand are pretty easy to kill. I probably would have included more warp charges in there somewhere to ensure the big buffs could go off unopposed, but then again that's effectively more points invested in the flyrants. I've never really had a huge problem with riptides.... flyrants can somewhat ignore them, and cheap bugs laugh at getting blasted with S8 AP2, though they do make my raveners and warriors sad in the pants. Mawlocs were still good value for the points, though if they lose their guidance systems (especially relevant since I didn't start my lictors on the board), they wind up very hit and miss. The missilesides are always a problem, just so much high strength shooting. Melta crisis suits being hemmed in and chased down by spore mines was a lesson in futility. Certainly didn't help me that those kroot came on and murdilated my biovores, though I don't really know what I could have done besides reserving them. Still think that regen is a never take on flyrants, two of them died in single rounds of shooting, and the last remaining flyrant lived thanks to iron arm more than regen. I do want to try out the errata again, this time running something that is not the traditional triple/penta flyrants and see how it goes, especially because I love my burrowing bugs

I'll poke Lighthouse to see if he can add his post-game thoughts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just as a side note, one of the really nice things about this errata is that I get to look at the nids again, and not feel like I MUST play them a certain way if I want them to have a chance at not getting slaughtered. That by itself has gotten me back into wanting to play 40k.

**Spoletta**

With Flyrants at 4+ Tau skyfire becomes their worse nightmare

. Regen is not going to do much on them.

I'd like to ask you, if you could play something more land based next time, maybe trying out the prime and our horde/semi horde options.

If this errata made playing a land based semi horde with MC support and maybe 1 or 2 FMC this would make nids awesome to play, both with and against.

**Cytharai**

Oh yeah, I have gaunts numbering in the hundreds... horde is definitely an option. It will be something land based next time I play.

**Zagman**

Spoletta wrote:With Flyrants at 4+ Tau skyfire becomes their worse nightmare . Regen is not going to do much on them.

I'd like to ask you, if you could play something more land based next time, maybe trying out the prime and our horde/semi horde options.

If this errata made playing a land based semi horde with MC support and maybe 1 or 2 FMC this would make nids awesome to play, both with and against.

They definitely are the hard counter, I'm curious how the Flyrants stack up against other armies. I mean, Tau are pretty much the one army that can hard counter Flyrants with ease. Regen is probably not worth it on them now.

I agree, something more land based would be awesome, you should be able to put a much more formidable Hord/GroundMC army on the Table. Heck, for half an 1850 army you can put like 7MCs on the table and have nearly a 1000pts left over for little bugs. Its definitely better than it was before, but the real question is it viable.

Cytharai wrote:Oh yeah, I have gaunts numbering in the hundreds... horde is definitely an option. It will be something land based next time I play.

It would be great to see!

**Dakkamite**

Finally was able to give zaghammer Orks a go today.

10 boyz + 10 boyz
codex Stompa
2x bikerbosses with klaws, cybork, etc
Nob bikers and warbikers
3 Kans and a Deff Dread
lootas and some lobbas

The extra hull point def helps Kans and dreads be noticeably more survivable against most AT weapons (not Melta etc) - however they were still rather lackluster units and extremely poor compared to what else I could get for those points and HS slots.1 Dread, 3 Kans is 230 points, for which I could get over 15 lootas. In fairness this is a problem with a) walkers and b) slow CC units in general, and could be beyond the scope of this errata to try and fix. I don't know if I'd have paid 30pts/each for Big Shoota Kans let alone 50, and we didn't even use the cowardly grot nonsense.

The Stompa points decrease was rather noticeable. Need more games to know if I think its too much. Definitely dominated our game a fair bit, but it did have a bit of bs going on - stealth from warlord table + cover = a pretty tough monster unit even without a KFF, repairs or void shields

Nob Bikers made a comeback for the first time in like 18 months and its things like this that make me really enjoy the errata lists you've put up. No invulns still hurts them, but at 34pts each (before cybork, which isn't quite as mandatory but still nice) they are at least affordable enough to not really worry about it. They beat face in melee like before, however one S10 fist will destroy them - I lost four to a dreadnaught in one combat round (which, to my credit, I only charged to see how it would do - knew it would end pretty badly!).

I felt like cybork was too expensive for what it did (34pts is nice, 39 points is expensive for NBs), even when stacking with a painboy. However they need more testing against non- S10 AP2 opponents. In all honesty though I don't know what we can do vs such weapons if our army theme is "lol no invulns for you", and outside of dreadnaughts I don't think theres *that* much S10 AP4 ignores cover type weapons to worry about - but maybe thats just naive optimism talking.

New mob rule didn't come up as my boyz never did anything. Don't need to even use it to know its a massive improvement over the original.

Cheers for all the hard work mate

**Zagman**

Dakkamite wrote:
Finally was able to give zaghammer Orks a go today.

10 boyz + 10 boyz
codex Stompa
2x bikerbosses with klaws, cybork, etc
Nob bikers and warbikers
3 Kans and a Deff Dread
lootas and some lobbas

The extra hull point def helps Kans and dreads be noticeably more survivable against most AT weapons (not Melta etc) - however they were still rather lackluster units and extremely poor compared to what else I could get for those points and HS slots.1 Dread, 3 Kans is 230 points, for which I could get over 15 lootas. In fairness this is a problem with a) walkers and b) slow CC units in general, and could be beyond the scope of this errata to try and fix. I don't know if I'd have paid 30pts/each for Big Shoota Kans let alone 50, and we didn't even use the cowardly grot nonsense.

The Stompa points decrease was rather noticeable. Need more games to know if I think its too much. Definitely dominated our game a fair bit, but it did have a bit of bs going on - stealth from warlord table + cover = a pretty tough monster unit even without a KFF, repairs or void shields

Nob Bikers made a comeback for the first time in like 18 months and its things like this that make me really enjoy the errata lists you've put up. No invulns still hurts them, but at 34pts each (before cybork, which isn't quite as mandatory but still nice) they are at least affordable enough to not really worry about it. They beat face in melee like before, however one S10 fist will destroy them - I lost four to a dreadnaught in one combat round (which, to my credit, I only charged to see how it would do - knew it would end pretty badly!).

I felt like cybork was too expensive for what it did (34pts is nice, 39 points is expensive for NBs), even when stacking with a painboy. However they need more testing against non- S10 AP2 opponents. In all honesty though I don't know what we can do vs such weapons if our army theme is "lol no invulns for you", and outside of dreadnaughts I don't think theres *that* much S10 AP4 ignores cover type weapons to worry about - but maybe thats just naive optimism talking.

New mob rule didn't come up as my boyz never did anything. Don't need to even use it to know its a massive improvement over the original.

Cheers for all the hard work mate

Awesome, glad you got some use and enjoyment out of them! Very useful feedback.

Haven't been on too much lately. Life has been a bit hectic, the release schedule and ridiculous formations are making the logistics of continually errating things problematic. Also I've been working on my own futuristic skirmish wargame.

**dominuschao**

Hey Zaggy props to you for doing this and to those who helped contribute. I have a couple semi radical changes to propose for orks.

-Rather than changing mob rule back to where the entire army is essentially fearless how about giving all ork transports something like this:
'Ramshackle- ork transports are crude contraptions held together by bandaids and duct tape. While more prone to breaking down temporarily, ork vehicles lack the sophisticated fiddly bits of other races and never suffer explodes results.'

Hear me out.. pseudo fearless was fine last edition but not always in character IMO and it still doesn't address the changes to explodes damage which still largely invalidates mechanized ork warfare. Thats a shame. This version of ramshackle largely addresses that problem including for smaller units that can embark (non bikes/jumps). Meanwhile large mobs don't really care too much about mob rule. I am aware this isn't as strong as the current change is for infantry but overall I feel its better. Just a thought. Oh but keep the bosspole as errata'd.

-Deff rolla- bring back the former glory. S10 d6 hits when ramming. Its ork melta. Plus Bwagons without deff rollas is like eldar without dresses. (yes I meant naked.. and wrong)

-Nauts- instead of tweaking the cost and such on the stompa just make these LoW.. mini SH walkers. Compare to imperial knights. They still aren't good honestly but that makes them a little better. Keep assault vehicle if you will but don't give these ramshackle. Grot gunners would be a nice bonus but I suppose people who don't like FW wouldn't like that much. Oh but either way at least make the deffstorm mega shoota AP 3 and/or twin linked. That gun makes me laugh-cry everytime I see a player expect it to do something. Silly geedub.

Anyway you've caught most of my other gripes with the dex and thanks again for your efforts.

**krodarklorr**

I must say, I like all of the changes for the Tyranids that you proposed, except the Hive Tyrants. I feel perhaps give him an additional wound, have him cost 160 base, and keep wings at the same price they are now. The fact that Devourers with Brainleech Worms are 20 points and they can only take one nerfs the Flyrant already.

**Rikerwota**

Hey Zag, thanks for all the effort you've put into this

Just a couple of thought with regards to Orks:

1) In the old fluff, Killa Kanz used to be piloted by Orks rather than grots, and this is what my army has been themed around for years - any thoughts of changes or options to bring this idea back?
Or at least getting rid of the stupid leadership rule : /

2) I miss not being able to take 'Eavy armour' on my Nobz that are leading regular boyz - to show that they are the best and toughest. How about putting the option back in at say 5 points? I'd probably eat 10pts just to have the option back : /

3) Cybork body - I'd like to see this back as a 5+ feel no pain -but maybe have it so that it can't be made any better by stacking effects.

4) Ramshackle/Armour plates. I think it would be better served to have it ignore the hit completely (maybe on a 6). The ramshackle rule (downgrade to glancing on 5 or 6) really does nothing when trukks can get glanced to death in no time at all.

Just my thoughts - cheers!

**Dakkamite**

@All the suggestions

Zag's idea here was to fix the codex with minimal changes. Adding Ork pilots or no-explodes to vehicles etc goes outside the design philosophy stated in the original Errata thread.

... That said I think we could make an exception for eavy armour on boss Nobz. I can't believe thats not a thing any more, such gak game design right there - we already get utterly neutered as an assault army by challenges, a 4+ save for these chumps is the least we should have.