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Regardless of how much 40K gets Sigmar'd in the next edition, there's one thing that's very likely to happen - the Force Org Chart and Combined Arms Detachment get removed from the game. It's more or less already happened to some extent.

The game will essentialy be unbound, with the option to include formations or detachments for bonuses.

I said it before and will say it again, if gw does to 40k what is has done to fantasy, it will kill 40k, the game will die off, AOS has totally and utterly flopped in our area (and a lot of areas id bet too), over time as the models dry up for fantasy and they move all the units to circle bases, the game will be done.

The same will happen to 40k, no points, not even an attempt at balance, childish, patronising rules, cartoonish awful models (subjective I know, but 40k has been going that way for a while with chaos at least).

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm sure GW is lamenting the loss of the last 7 WHFB players.

Oh Emperor, you made me spill my drink in laughter, that was a good one.
(And kind of true)

But on to my opinion:

AoS is so far looking like a major botch up. Fantasy players don't like it, and as well 40K players stick with 40K.

Will there be an 8th Edition? Yes. Just like how I think there will be 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th....

40K will keep GW afloat and more considering this strange surge in popularity lately. They will continue to update 40K and all will be a-okay!

I think GW would have a hard time justifying doing to the rules like they did with AOS while still charging for said rules. THAT particular combination I think would literally kill 40k.

I think GW need to see these forum posts and address the concerns of people who currently play the game (instead of going for new customers) before making drastic changes...

But then again, it's GW. When did they give a feth about the people playing the game?

DRC wrote:
I think GW need to see these forum posts and address the concerns of people who currently play the game (instead of going for new customers) before making drastic changes...

But then again, it's GW. When did they give a feth about the people playing the game?

Editions 1 through 3.

After that "feth those fething nerds" became their motto.

When did the Rulebooks stop having a Designer's Notes section at the end? Where they'd explain what they'd done and why it was an improvement on the game for the players.

I haven't bought a 40k Rulebook since 3rd Ed so I'm not sure but I know said sections certainly petered out after WFB 7th Ed

They stopped doing them right around the time they stopped making improvements to the game, and just changed it to force gamers to buy certain things.

 Skriker wrote:

Without gutting and destroy WHFB they could have made a Warhammer Lite game that could be entry level to get others hooked and then work to move them to the full game after a while. Instead they've kicked all current fantasy players in the balls in the hopes of getting some new customers instead. Smh

Sounds like you're describing mordheim. Which could have worked wonders if released every 18-months with new settings, like mordheim city of the damned, Karak Zigil the Abandoned Dwarf Hold, Lustria the Lost Lizard City, Skaventight the Maze etc. I never understood for the love of my life why the warband system wasnt made more compatible with the mainstream armies in WHFB and used as a springboard for new players. Instead they made WHFB the childish part of the franchice though it costed 20 times as much as mordheim which was the more adult themed version.

Speaking about recruitment for WHFB, I was drafted into it by the specialist games, because they were easy to start with and didnt cost an arm and a leg. I have a hard time seeing how GW can get the type of publicity for AoS as they did back then and when.

But lets face it... Fantasy is much less popular now than it was 15 years ago during the lord of the rings craze and "flop" of the SW prequels. It went 1970-sci fi, 1980-s fantasy, 1990-sci fi, and 2000-fantasy, in terms of popularity, right? So we are seeing sci fi becoming more popular again, i bet the disney star wars films will raise this popularity enourmously...

Anyway. I'm done with fantasy now, trying to sell my last army on ebay now as we speak. Its hard to see them go, but havent played for a long while and lets face it... when would I have the time to field 200 skaven anyway?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
the type of game GW seems to want 40k to be, a game you can sit down and play in an afternoon, but also one that's popular for narritive building) in both these cases the end product flubbed. people who where there primarily for the setting absolutly despised what had happened to it (BTW this is why an AOS for 40k would be idiotic. 40K the setting has far more fans then 40k the table top game) and the total rules change also drove off fans of the games ruleset. the end result was they had to build a fanbase from scratch.

I dont disagree that 40k is a setting, but as it is its growing a little stale. Fantasy set up all these lovely conflicts and characters, but never resolved anything, and look where that lack of freshness took the setting.

40k could have a little story progress. It could be done tastefully, with the emperor pronounced dead by some parts of the imperium, while a terran loyalist faction (Astra militarum) claims he is still living. The space marine chapters forms their own realms, infighting over tithe and other things (why the heck are the loyalist SM's fighting each other all the time on the table top anyway), and CSM finally getting out of the eye of terror. over some years, some missing primarchs comes back, reunites the imperium, declares that the golden thrones is working again etc, and that the emperor has spoken to him in a vision etc. before starting it over again.

But then again...

I am pretty sure this will never happen. It seems like AoS will, in the long run, be abandoned by the community unless large changes are made to it. I mean everyone from other gaming systems aren't going to switch as the rules just...don't exist and many people from Fantasy look at it with hate. Pretty much the only people who seem to be playing it are new people, people trying to sell it to new people, and those from Fantasy who are just desperately hoping this is the new thing since their old Fantasy is dead and are just too invested in Fantasy to walk away.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Both No Points and a Point system have there problems.
You can solve a lot of those problems by talking with your opponent for a few moments before the game. This can be the week before or right before, but I have never had a truly bed game by doing this. Most of my 'Bad Games' have come from and opponent who just plops down his army on the table and says "Lets Play"

Which in a game with a GOOD points system shouldn't happen very often. Sure you'll occasionally get a poor match up, but when point values are actually done right power levels on one side of the table will not be horribly skewed over the other. The way to fix this is not the remove the points, but to FIX the points. If you remove the points the problem never goes away. If you fix the points the problem is actually addressed.

One can play a point system game without points if one chooses, but the opposite is not true without building a complete system of unit point costs to use first.

Accurate point values only get you half way to a balanced system that delivers great pick up game experience.
The play testing to find synergistic anomalies and counter them with a well devised and intuitive army composition,(F.O.C ).
It the other half of the process.

Also it helps tremendously if the points values are applied at the level of interaction.
In 40k they assign point values to elements that make up the unit, and then adjust them at the over all force level.Completely mission out the unit level where they have the greatest impact.

To get as accurate as possible point values , having a rule set that covers all the interaction, with the minimum of resolution methods, and intuitive game mechanics helps massively.

40k uses over SEVEN resolution methods and the game mechanics from ancient battles to cover a FRACTION of the game play 40k should have.And uses over eighty special rules to fill in the gaps.

Yet some people still think it can be 'fixed' with a few tweeks.
When a group of professional game developers could not 'fix it' with innumerable tweeks and patches over the last seventeen years.

A complete re write for 40k is needed.
BUT working to bring a DEFINED game play to players in the most intuitive and elegant way possible.

And for the sanity of all concerned tell the players what the game play you are trying to achieve...
Then that way the rules can be judged fairly on what they are intended to be, rather than what players want them to,be.

Bartali wrote:
Regardless of how much 40K gets Sigmar'd in the next edition, there's one thing that's very likely to happen - the Force Org Chart and Combined Arms Detachment get removed from the game. It's more or less already happened to some extent.

The game will essentialy be unbound, with the option to include formations or detachments for bonuses.

I don't agree, the FOC is essential for the 40K game to work out... I'd love to see sturdier rules for the FOC in 8th... not that that'll happen. :(

 Peregrine wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
I do see a few advantages to the new system that might work well with 40k.

What are those advantages? Being so obviously terrible that nobody will ever play the game, and therefore the problem of not being able to afford to keep up with new rulebook releases will be solved? AoS is so unbelievably bad that the best thing GW can do is commit honorable suicide to cleanse the shame of publishing it, and never speak of the abomination again.

Indeed. I mean, some of the rules are complete jokes.

I have to bribe my opponent, and they have to accept, or I can't use Greasus Goldtooth's big main ability?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
I do see a few advantages to the new system that might work well with 40k.

What are those advantages? Being so obviously terrible that nobody will ever play the game, and therefore the problem of not being able to afford to keep up with new rulebook releases will be solved? AoS is so unbelievably bad that the best thing GW can do is commit honorable suicide to cleanse the shame of publishing it, and never speak of the abomination again.

Indeed. I mean, some of the rules are complete jokes.

I have to bribe my opponent, and they have to accept, or I can't use Greasus Goldtooth's big main ability?

"Yes. Now give me £1000 and I'll concede the game to you" - GW

My buddy and I have very limited time to play 40k. Like once a month, and we can't even finish a game because of all the setup and special rules referencing.

If Games Workshop made an "Age of Ultramar" or whatever for 40k, we'd jump on it and play the hell out of it.

ziggurattt wrote:
My buddy and I have very limited time to play 40k. Like once a month, and we can't even finish a game because of all the setup and special rules referencing.

If Games Workshop made an "Age of Ultramar" or whatever for 40k, we'd jump on it and play the hell out of it.

Or...GW could just make a better 40k that doesn't involve stripping it down to 'make up the rules yourselves and make pew-pew noises'.

There is very much a middle ground between 40k's current bloat, and AoS extreme simplicity and shallowness.

As an aside, check out X-wing if you haven't already. Super simple, plenty of fun, lots of depth, and the models are pre-painted but can be painted over if that's what you're in to.

 Blacksails wrote:


As an aside, check out X-wing if you haven't already. Super simple, plenty of fun, lots of depth, and the models are pre-painted but can be painted over if that's what you're in to.

Thanks for the recommendation. That Millennium Falcon model looks sweet.

ziggurattt wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:


As an aside, check out X-wing if you haven't already. Super simple, plenty of fun, lots of depth, and the models are pre-painted but can be painted over if that's what you're in to.

Thanks for the recommendation. That Millennium Falcon model looks sweet.

No worries, and if you've always wanted to command the might of a star destroyer or do your best Ackbar impression on the bridge of a Mon Calamari cruiser, check out Armada, the capital ship version.

ziggurattt wrote:
My buddy and I have very limited time to play 40k. Like once a month, and we can't even finish a game because of all the setup and special rules referencing.

If Games Workshop made an "Age of Ultramar" or whatever for 40k, we'd jump on it and play the hell out of it.

Try this:

https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/portfolio/one-page-40k/

Much faster ruleset for 40k.