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Relapse wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

I thought I was the assassin here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

Like, check your bias, man.

Better yet, you can check the bias of the man leading you around by your nose and ignore the fact that another article stated the man got shot as he approached the other officers waving his gun around or that the cop who got fired called it a justified shooting.

It's sad the man got shot, but it was his choice to have it happen.


Once again, a little information on the man whose writing has you so heated up


http://shameproject.com/profile/radley-balko/

Are you saying that suicide by cop is okay? It probably was a justified shoot in the eyes of the department. That doesn't mean it is a justified shoot in general. Shooting a suicidal person is not okay. Are you saying that the way the mentally ill are treated by cops is something we do not need to discuss, because one guy posted an article with a bias?

Your entire argument is this guy has bias and we aren't seeing the facts. We are, you just don't like how we are interpreting them.

A mentally ill person who was attempting to commit suicide by cop succeeded, despite this cops best efforts. He was let go because of it. That is messed up.

I know of a real good incident where the cops beat a mentally ill person to death where the thugs should have been strung up by their heels and it pissed me and any right thinking person off that they got away with it.
This, however is not even in the same league, and as I said earlier, even the fired cop, said it was a justified shooting.

Yes, you keep saying that. But by what standards was this a justified shooting and are those standards maybe a little lower than they should be?

This is the same and it was still not handled correctly, no matter how "justified" the shoot was according to the department.

I would say in answer to your question is to ask the fired cop who was in the middle of the thing why he said it was justified to shoot the guy approaching the back up while waving a gun.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Frazzled

I would assume that state level police are going to better trained and organised than the county bumpkins.

As for the DEA, things like that are probably why those sorts of agencies should probably leave the actual arrests to the ordinary police. It's why here in the U.K. for example MI5 stick to counter intelligence only and leave the actual investigations and arrests to the special branch of the police.

Could've fooled me, considering my last run in was a state trooper who pulled me over because he thought I was a guy going 85 in a 65, and then when I asked for the dash cam footage to fight the case because I knew it was someone else it conveniently "didn't exist".

@ MrMoustaffa

The bastard.

Did you win?

 Frazzled wrote:
Shooting a suicidal person is not okay.

A suicidal person can still harm others. There have been countless examples of that, not including suicide bombers.

Suicide bombers are not suicidal...any more than the guy who jumps on a grenade to save his comrades...

But still, one way to attempt at suicide I've heard of is driving the wrong way on a freeway. I think that's quite rare though. I believe the vast majority of times a person attempting suicide hurts someone else (which is a rare thing) would be by accident...for instance jumping off a building and landing on someone.

Regardless, not the case in this situation.

On another note-people keep on saying the original cop said it was a good shoot. I'm thinking he would say that regardless...likely wanting to stay in the field of work and all.

 skyth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Shooting a suicidal person is not okay.

A suicidal person can still harm others. There have been countless examples of that, not including suicide bombers.

Suicide bombers are not suicidal...any more than the guy who jumps on a grenade to save his comrades...

Which is probably why he stated 'not including suicide bombers'.

 CptJake wrote:

 skyth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Shooting a suicidal person is not okay.

A suicidal person can still harm others. There have been countless examples of that, not including suicide bombers.

Suicide bombers are not suicidal...any more than the guy who jumps on a grenade to save his comrades...

Which is probably why he stated 'not including suicide bombers'.

A possible meaning of that sentence, when structured in that way, is that there are countless examples even if we exclude suicide bombers. It is not necessarily saying that suicide bombers are not suicidal.

 Frazzled wrote:

And in addition to having less shootings we also had the courage to do the actual fighting against the Nazis, rather than just wait for the moment victory is certain and then go in to claim all the glory.

Which do you prefer: the IS-3 or the T55 (the replacement for the T34)? I don't know. If I were going off to fight the evil Hitlerites and their Western cohorts in 1959 I'd go with the IS-3. That big old 122mm just says "dosvadonya" to me, and it has heavier armor if I am not mistaken.

T-55 over IS-3 but IS-3 over T-54. Compared to the IS-3, the T-55 may indeed be somewhat less heavily armoured and have a smaller gun, but it makes up for that by having much better rate of fire, accuracy, mobility and reliability. But I'd most like to have a KV-1 or KV-2. I am a huge fan of the KV series of tanks.
Or an Armata. Armata is awesome. It is the most advanced tank in the world, and why settle for anything less when defending the motherland from evil fascists and liberasts?

 CptJake wrote:

 skyth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Shooting a suicidal person is not okay.

A suicidal person can still harm others. There have been countless examples of that, not including suicide bombers.

Suicide bombers are not suicidal...any more than the guy who jumps on a grenade to save his comrades...

Which is probably why he stated 'not including suicide bombers'.

And nice of you to leave out the rest of my statement where I mentioned a couple ways that suicidal people have hurt other people...

 skyth wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 skyth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Shooting a suicidal person is not okay.

A suicidal person can still harm others. There have been countless examples of that, not including suicide bombers.

Suicide bombers are not suicidal...any more than the guy who jumps on a grenade to save his comrades...

Which is probably why he stated 'not including suicide bombers'.

And nice of you to leave out the rest of my statement where I mentioned a couple ways that suicidal people have hurt other people...

Your welcome. When I'm only replying to a portion of a post, and the rest of the post is irrelevant to my point I tend to snip them.

Relapse wrote:
I would say in answer to your question is to ask the fired cop who was in the middle of the thing why he said it was justified to shoot the guy approaching the back up while waving a gun.

That is not an answer, that is a deflection.

Also, for the record, it is very rare that a suicidal person is also homicidal or even interested in hurting others. When it does happen, it is usually a murder/suicide and involves somebody you know well. Not random cops. Case in point, this guy unloaded his gun and his girlfriend said he was talking about suicide, not homicide. This thing where we think suicidal people are also homicidal has to stop, it is one of the reasons that we have such a stigma around mental health.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I would say in answer to your question is to ask the fired cop who was in the middle of the thing why he said it was justified to shoot the guy approaching the back up while waving a gun.

That is not an answer, that is a deflection.

Also, for the record, it is very rare that a suicidal person is also homicidal or even interested in hurting others. When it does happen, it is usually a murder/suicide and involves somebody you know well. Not random cops. Case in point, this guy unloaded his gun and his girlfriend said he was talking about suicide, not homicide. This thing where we think suicidal people are also homicidal has to stop, it is one of the reasons that we have such a stigma around mental health.

It's not a deflection. If you think you know more about police work or the situation than the officer at the heart of the story, that's your conceit and there is no more point in talking to you about it.

Relapse wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I would say in answer to your question is to ask the fired cop who was in the middle of the thing why he said it was justified to shoot the guy approaching the back up while waving a gun.

That is not an answer, that is a deflection.

Also, for the record, it is very rare that a suicidal person is also homicidal or even interested in hurting others. When it does happen, it is usually a murder/suicide and involves somebody you know well. Not random cops. Case in point, this guy unloaded his gun and his girlfriend said he was talking about suicide, not homicide. This thing where we think suicidal people are also homicidal has to stop, it is one of the reasons that we have such a stigma around mental health.

It's not a deflection. If you think you know more about police work or the situation than the officer at the heart of the story, that's your conceit and there is no more point in talking to you about it.

It is a deflection, because I am talking about police and how they handle the mentally ill. You keep trying to deflect back to it being a justified shoot. Okay, by whose standards? That cops? The department? All departments? You don't think there is any room to question the police? Should we take what he has said as the one and only truth?

Are you saying we should trust the cops?

 Dreadwinter wrote:


It is a deflection, because I am talking about police and how they handle the mentally ill. You keep trying to deflect back to it being a justified shoot. Okay, by whose standards? That cops? The department? All departments? You don't think there is any room to question the police? Should we take what he has said as the one and only truth?

Are you saying we should trust the cops?

In referring to this exact situation, in one of the articles the first responding officer said basically, "they did right based on the information they had." OK... cool. While he thinks it's a justified shooting based on that, I disagree with him. He had the situation under control until Harry Callahan and John McClain showed up. What I think should have happened, was the first cop should given a one or two word signal to the others that it's all good, to just back off and keep him covered.

Like any cop isn't going to say a shoot was justified, regardless of whether it was or not...

 skyth wrote:
Like any cop isn't going to say a shoot was justified, regardless of whether it was or not...

So... says something you don't agree with, so it's automatically a cover up.

Look, why even bother with these discussions at this point, when this is the "discussion"?

 djones520 wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Like any cop isn't going to say a shoot was justified, regardless of whether it was or not...

So... says something you don't agree with, so it's automatically a cover up.

Look, why even bother with these discussions at this point, when this is the "discussion"?

As opposed to making an argument to authority to support the "good shoot" side? Come on.

 djones520 wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Like any cop isn't going to say a shoot was justified, regardless of whether it was or not...

So... says something you don't agree with, so it's automatically a cover up.

Look, why even bother with these discussions at this point, when this is the "discussion"?

Sorry we are questioning things. We will all fall back in line. For the motherland!

 djones520 wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Like any cop isn't going to say a shoot was justified, regardless of whether it was or not...

So... says something you don't agree with, so it's automatically a cover up.

Look, why even bother with these discussions at this point, when this is the "discussion"?

You could alternatively provide an example of when a cop involved in a shooting claimed that it wasn't justified.

 djones520 wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Like any cop isn't going to say a shoot was justified, regardless of whether it was or not...

So... says something you don't agree with, so it's automatically a cover up.

There is a thing called the Blue Wall...I'm sure you've heard of it. Cops are not likely to rat out their own...

Look, why even bother with these discussions at this point, when this is the "discussion"?

Now this is what we call A-grade hypocrisy...The entire purpose of claiming that the cop that was there first said it was a good shoot was to shut down the conversation. Pointing out that he may not be unbiased continues the discussion.

I do think you doth protest too much...

Well, so much for having a discussion. I guess since the officer decided this is a good shoot, it is case closed. Thanks justice system! /s

This is interesting. I've never heard about the 21 foot rule:

http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

Oh yea. Its designed ton show how fast someone can get ton you. Also known as the Tueller drill. Do it a few times and you will have a real understanding of how much danger you can be in just with someone walking up asking for a light or directions or something. Its a real driver for whats called "point shooting" as well.