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Xirax wrote:I'm finding OIF (also GH) needing to taken with LBSF or Angel's blade detachment. Otherwise you lose the initiative bonus wich can really make the difference. Am I the only one struggling with this matter?

I wouldn't feel the need for the initiative bonus for the OIF or GH. You're only going to get it when you charge, and you're not going to get the bonus on the turn you drop as disordered charge. Also the OIF is mostly going to be Hammers or Fists where an initiative bonus doesn't matter.

After fiddling around in Battlescribe for a while, have a list that i'm happy enough with at 1500. Perhaps not the best for Maelstrom missions though..

Chapter Ancients
Furioso Dread w/ Frag, Melta; Drop Pod w/ Beacon
Furioso Dread w/ Frag, Melta; Drop Pod w/ Beacon
Lib Dread w/ Lv2; Drop Pod w/ Beacon

Orbital Intervention Force
5x TH/SS Terminators
5x TH/SS Terminators
5x Terminators w/ Asscan

Flesh Tearers Strike Force
Corbulo
5x Tacticals w/Flamer; Drop Pod
Drop Pod.

I'd honestly just drop the regular Terminator squad and add another Assault one.

Indeed. And a 2nd Libby Dread. That should take you to 1850 ish. That list seems kinda awesome.

The quickening on dreads is pretty rude.

@1.5k that's pretty nasty.

Always seem's to end up CAD + x formation doesn't it? I just don't see many of these formation's or detachment's lasting long before folk figure them out. These 2 will probably have the longest innings though.

Nah, I have a couple angel's blade lists build around the demi-company. I rather like the one with three psykers.

I dunno, I've been facerolling people even with sub optimal LBSF lists. All 4 games I've gotten to play with it thus far haven't just been wins, they've been brutal curb stompings. So far I've played vs Skitarii, Chaos, and 2 necron armies.

None of those lists can stop the LBSF list at range, except maybe the Skitarii. LBSF is a death sentence for most Necrons.

Any list that can gun down FNP meqs, though, is going to slaughter it straight up.

LBSF would be much better if Stormravens weren't such crap.

I'm sure if Jancoran had been running the Chaos, you'd have lost 20-0

Lol it's possible. But the chaos list was one of the better I've seen in a long time. Mono nurge for the most part, with 4 or 5 rhinos filled with plague marines. Rounding it out were 2 maulerfiends, Belakor and a forgeworld nurgle knight. Btw, those are a huge pain to take down when they're invisible.

Yeah, invis is a game changer. Although I think even nurgle marines crumble before LBST. Too many rerolls. That's one reason I like my angel's blade list with Mephy rocking librarius. I might be able to scourge away the invis!

Martel wrote:The quickening on dreads is pretty rude.

Especially in combo with Well Timed Blow from chapter ancients - if you survive to your second turn of assault it's 10-14 S10 AP2 (+/- Force) attacks at I5-7.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I'd honestly just drop the regular Terminator squad and add another Assault one.

Maelstrom innit. I don't want to throw everything in my opponents deployment zone when it's a slow list.

But it isn't like the regular Terminators will contribute anything meaningful even with an extra shooting phase. If you want that sorta thing, Stern guard still exist.

Tactical Terminators are more useful then TH/SS when dropped away from your opponents lines. Sternguard, or even more Tacticals, would be better, but then I don't have the points at 1500 to do that.

Does anyone know if the Chapter Ancients and Orbital Intervention Force boxes are limited, or are a regular part of the BA line now ?
After discounts from retailers, it makes things stupidly cheap - £16 per Furioso vs £28 full retail for example.

Ok, so I think we have enough experience and math/theory crafting here to start putting together a tentative list of good and bad matchups for the various Angel's Blade lists. All of our lists have around the same general strengths and weaknesses: very strong combat potential on the charge, fast units, the ability to assault from deep strike (and deep strike accurately), but lacking in OBSEC or true hardcore MSU. Oh, and a vulnerability to high strength low AP shooting. So here it goes.

Strong matchups- Armies that are usually defensive in nature or lean heavily on durability over firepower. Also armies that lack the ability to take us out at long range.

-Necrons- this is the big one. We wipe the floor with crons, which happen to be one of the top armies in the game.
-Orks
-Chaos Space Marines
-Space Wolves
-Vanilla marine demi or battle companies
-Khorne Daemonkin- we are almost as fast as them, and generally hit harder. D-thirsters are a problem, but one that depends on who gets the charge.
-Dark Eldar
-Imperial Knights- Between str9 power fists that reroll to hit and the critical mass of melta we can field, knights have never been a problem

Weak matchups- Generally speaking, invisible deathstars or fast moving armies with strong shooting. Forces with high amounts of long range anti MEQ also fall into this category, and interceptor/increased overwatch is the final nail in the coffin.

-Eldar- duh.
-Dark Angels- stubborn and bs2 or full bs overwatch sucks. Any flavor of DA but deathwing is a nightmare to fight.
-Tau- literally has all the things we hate to fight
-Chaos Daemons
-Invisibility based deathstars. Centurion Star is a prime example
-Tyranids- you really only ever see flyrant spam, and that's really tough for us to fight.

Outliers (the jury is out)
-Grey Knights- army wide force weapons are a pain, but they still die like regular marines. They have strong shooting, but are hampered by a low model count.
-Astra Militarium- I feel like they have the tools to beat us, but you don't see said tools very often.

GK shooting is not good vs BA in general. This match up is very detail dependent.

My Demi-company Angel's blade list has grav bikers led by an artificer biker captain and a libby or priest for support. It has also grav devs in a rhino. GK are in deep crap.

My LBSF list plays right into their hands, but GK are actually one of the cases where init 5 is really useful. Really, really useful. But DKs are much more problematic here.

My LATF list doesn't have a lot of great targets, but is weak vs CC lists. On the other hand, it is very fast, and GK don't like that at all.

IG are like ghetto Tau. The real failing is lack of interceptor makes furioso and melta team alpha strikes are a thing against them. They have CC tarpit options, although vs LBST, none of those are likely to work.

Valid points. Do you agree with the rest?

In general. I'm not too sure about non-invis SW. It's really hard to kill TWC. It might be hard for some lists to shoot the Wulfen to death.

Non-invis SW is a myth.

 koooaei wrote:
Non-invis SW is a myth.

Eh, not really. Lion and the Wolf and giant fenrisian wolf packs tend to not rely on invisibility.

Martel732 wrote:GK shooting is not good vs BA in general. This match up is very detail dependent.

My Demi-company Angel's blade list has grav bikers led by an artificer biker captain and a libby or priest for support. It has also grav devs in a rhino. GK are in deep crap.

My LBSF list plays right into their hands, but [/b]GK are actually one of the cases where init 5 is really useful. [/b]Really, really useful. But DKs are much more problematic here.

My LATF list doesn't have a lot of great targets, but is weak vs CC lists. On the other hand, it is very fast, and GK don't like that at all.

IG are like ghetto Tau. The real failing is lack of interceptor makes furioso and melta team alpha strikes are a thing against them. They have CC tarpit options, although vs LBST, none of those are likely to work.

I play GK a fair bit as well and their shooting generally isn't worth much. The scary thing with GK is AP3 swords with Force up to ignore FNP. As Martel says, I5 matters as both going at I4 generally means you're going to wipe each other out.

In general. I'm not too sure about non-invis SW. It's really hard to kill TWC. It might be hard for some lists to shoot the Wulfen to death

I find TWC even in their most basic form tough for BA. BA almost certainly need the charge if assaulting, and the formations that give disordered charge from Deep Strike just don't cut it.

I t hink the assault from deep strike formations are suicide vs sw and demons.

I'll be interested to try out Furiosos/Lib Dreads from Chapter Ancients vs TWC.

If they can survive the S10 Hammers/Fists from the turn the TWC charge ('cos lets face it, Furiosos aren't ever going to get the charge on them) they should be able to wreck face in the BA players turn when popping the formation bonus.

It depends on how much bling the TWC have. If they are powerfist/storm shield pimped out, the dreads are toast.

Can you guys provide some examples of your LBSF and LATF lists? I just got wrecked by some crons with the LBSF and LATF together but that's because I whiffed everything first turn and fed him my army basically...

Also why are TWC S10 on the charge? They are really S5 normally? seems pretty ridiculous...

I'm pretty new and haven't faced SW yet. I'm dreading it, but crons are my typical opponent. I generally do pretty well against them besides the wraiths...

First off, TWC are S5 and so with a powerfist are S10 all the time, not just on the charge.

My LBSF, as yet untested:

LBSF

5 DC jump packs, Powerfist
5 DC jump packs, Powerfist
5 DC jump packs, Powerfist
Astorath
DC Chaplain w/2+ relic armor
DC dread, heavy flamer, drop pod
5 scouts, meltabomb
5 scouts, meltabomb
5 scouts, meltabomb
MM attack bike
MM attack bike
MM attack bike
5 man ASM, melta X 2, power sword, vet sarge

Knight detachment:

Knight Warden w/stormspear rocket pod

LATF:

Techmarine, servoharness
Crusader, MM, heavy armor
Auto/las predator X3 in squadron
Baal pred /w heavy bolters and flamestorm
Baal pred w/ heavy bolters and TL AC

CAD:
Priest with veritas vitae and power sword
Tac squad, Rhino, heavy flamer, dozer blade
Tac squad, Rhino, heavy flamer, dozer blade
Tac squad, Razorback, dozer blade, las/plas razor, plasma gun and combi-plas
Whirlwind squadron X 3
Bikers X 3 w/ 2 grav guns
Assault terminators 4X TH/SS lightning claw sergeant

Thank you! Seems pretty legit to me.

Edit: wasn't doubting your knowledge of TWC btw, just was surprised to learn they are S5

Played a game with my LBSF+Stormraven squadron with 10th company support. Pretty much ham fisted my way through the game. Forgot to infiltrate my scouts, made some sub par plays, but still won vs Minotaurs space marines. Their PE marines is nasty with Asterion Moloc. Granted, his list wasn't optimal, but considering how badly I played and how much I won by I'd say it's telling.

How do you run your LBSF, MIB? Typical 1 PF per 5 guys?

This might be (definitely) weird, but I've been lurking here ever since the BA Dex dropped pretty much. As a new player trying to get into the generally intimidating/competetive group at my FLGS, you guys have been very informative and helpful. MIB and Martel, you guys have been especially helpful with your posts overall, but all you BA guys have also been informative as well!

Just wanted to say thanks and have fun dealing with my stupid noob posts now!

I really like my LBSF list and I want to try it soon. The knight warden gives the opponent something else to worry about getting to their lines, and can take a lot of things that make DC cry. The scouts should incredibly useful bullet catchers as well. Hopefully, the DC dread gets lost in the mix. The DC dread is better than I thought because it can get magnagrapples. I think this is a better approach than trying to combine with LATF, not trying to be critical of those lists.

CountryMac wrote:
How do you run your LBSF, MIB? Typical 1 PF per 5 guys?

This might be (definitely) weird, but I've been lurking here ever since the BA Dex dropped pretty much. As a new player trying to get into the generally intimidating/competetive group at my FLGS, you guys have been very informative and helpful. MIB and Martel, you guys have been especially helpful with your posts overall, but all you BA guys have also been informative as well!

Just wanted to say thanks and have fun dealing with my stupid noob posts now!

Welcome to the Angels of Death, brother! Answering questions from new players is almost never stupid or annoying, so don't worry about that.

To answer your first question, 1 fist per 5 marines is the way to go with Death Company. If I need to shave points in a 10 man squad, I usually drop one of the 2 fists for a sword.

Right now the 3 core formations in the Angel's Blade/Lost Brotherhood strike forces for BA are all viable in their own way, but serve different purposes. Here they are with brief explainations.

Battle Demi-company- lackluster on its own (understatement), but it's the cheapest way to unlock our other formations in the detachment. Also lends itself well to fast moving mech lists with well balanced shooting and assault. Martel favors this for its low core tax and versatility.

Archangels Demi-company- gets a bucket of rules from formations and its mother detachment. The core tax for this formation is very high, which severely limits your options for command/aux formations. That being said, the core of this detachment is a very powerful and very elite force that can pull off full reserve perfectly and has both strong shooting and assault. All of us have experimented with this, but none of us have "cracked the code" so to speak.

Lost Brotherhood Strike Force (LBSF)- a one trick pony, but a very good one. Very fast, very hard hitting on the charge, and capable of turn 1 assaults. It also almost guarantees turn 2 assaults. Your command choices are basically nonexistant, and your aux choices are somewhat limited, but the tools are still there to make one of the stronger assault lists in the game. I favor this due to its speed and combat potential (and because I love death co)