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Stranger83 wrote:
With the exception of Shaltari you have the range on all other factions, if you're on silent running then you should be able to get your broadsides in range of the other ships BEFORE they get their front arc in range of you (and to get you out of silent running they have to active scan which gives them a major spike). Remember that the PHR don't do very well going head on, the side arcs mean you do much better spaced out, forcing the enemy to move their ships into arc.

Maybe it's different play styles, but I find PHR to be the strongest faction personally.

Sounds like the Firestorm equivalent of Relthoza Cloaking mixed with Sorylian weapon focus, almost.

 Compel wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:


With the exception of Shaltari you have the range on all other factions, if you're on silent running then you should be able to get your broadsides in range of the other ships BEFORE they get their front arc in range of you (and to get you out of silent running they have to active scan which gives them a major spike). Remember that the PHR don't do very well going head on, the side arcs mean you do much better spaced out, forcing the enemy to move their ships into arc.

Maybe it's different play styles, but I find PHR to be the strongest faction personally.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that could really do with a picture / diagram, I'm kinda confuddled.

Not the best of images I admit, as I knocked it up in 30 seconds, but you can see that the attached image that the two opposition ships have moved up the same distance on the table, but the PHR ship is able to shoot at the one that it hasn't gone head on against (as it's in side arc), whilst it isn't able to shoot the one it has gone head on against (as it's in front arc). This is the key for PHR, you need to not fall into the trap of closing head on as it plays to the opposition strength, spread your fleet out and you should always be able to draw a line to something.

I think too many people take them head on in the hopes of getting a weapons free in turn two/three - the problem with this is that three turns of shooting from one side = more shots that 1 turn of shooting from both sides.

Edit to add image 2, this one shows the effect plan better. Whilst the green ship will be able to weapons free on both ships in a future turn you can see that the two red ships are both able to shoot the opposition on all turns due to being spaced out, and as I said three turns of shooting from 1 side = more shots than 1 turn of shooting from both sides (again, a very rough image so forgive the really bad arc lines - but you hopefully get the point)

Stranger83 wrote:

With the exception of Shaltari you have the range on all other factions, if you're on silent running then you should be able to get your broadsides in range of the other ships BEFORE they get their front arc in range of you (and to get you out of silent running they have to active scan which gives them a major spike). Remember that the PHR don't do very well going head on, the side arcs mean you do much better spaced out, forcing the enemy to move their ships into arc.

The problem with this is that it will give you opponent at least 1 turn of unopposed troopship deployment, thats a huge drawback.

With my own PHR I am planning on going strike craft heavy.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

With the exception of Shaltari you have the range on all other factions, if you're on silent running then you should be able to get your broadsides in range of the other ships BEFORE they get their front arc in range of you (and to get you out of silent running they have to active scan which gives them a major spike). Remember that the PHR don't do very well going head on, the side arcs mean you do much better spaced out, forcing the enemy to move their ships into arc.

The problem with this is that it will give you opponent at least 1 turn of unopposed troopship deployment, thats a huge drawback.

With my own PHR I am planning on going strike craft heavy.

Not really, silent running doesn't hinder your speed at all so you can still get into position at the same time, once you're in range to open up obviously you stop silent running - it just allows you to get your broadsides in range without being shot to pieces by the oppositions front facing fire.

Plus, PHR have pretty much the best bombardment ships in the game as they are also the troop ships - I'm generally not too bothered if the opposition gets to the sector first as I'm usually able to clear them off the sector with the bombardment before I start to drop my own troops. I prefer the Ganymede for precisely this reason, though I suppose if you take the gun troopship, I forget it's name, this does mean you'd need to alter the plan a little.

Strike craft heavy is good (PHR do have the best in the game IMO) but it also what people expect if they are playing PHR, seems everyone is going that way. Nothing funnier than having your opponent take 4 of the Aegis frigates as he knows he would be playing PHR and then turn up with no bombers meaning he just wasted a buttload of points.

Stranger83 wrote:

Not really, silent running doesn't hinder your speed at all

It does as you won't be using full thrust.

PHR troopship bombardment haven't been an issue for me as they tend to get cut in half at around the time they reach a cluster

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

Not really, silent running doesn't hinder your speed at all

It does as you won't be using full thrust.

PHR troopship bombardment haven't been an issue for me as they tend to get cut in half at around the time they reach a cluster

Ah, well yes, if your opponent wanted to full thrust then yes they'd get their earlier - but then of cause they have put a major spike on their force giving you the perfect opportunity to turn side on and blast away whilst out of range of reprisal.

If you lose all the troop ships before they get to the cluster then yes you don't need to worry about being bombarded, but with a scan of 8" they really should be bombarding before they can be shot at by anything except Shaltari as nothing else has range to hit them before they start firing - unless your crazy enough to full thrust the troopships but that's just a recipe for disaster!

I promise when tourneys come out, if they are not fixed in some way, you will not see PHR anywhere near the top.. IF you do, it will be mass launch assets and as much burn through lasers as possible.

the problem with your pics is/ strat is you cant figure in the opponent. Anyone who plays this game knows you not let PHR get right up between you. They are very easy to out maneuver with the other 3 races.

Turning sideways doesn't work. Ive tried it a few times. Your still being pinged to death to be Red and lit up from weapons free forward facing attacks, while you try to hold your own with crappy single side cannons.

Check out top pick rates on DF list

Light

Media - Troppship duh
Europa - Linked so doesent need to weapons free
Pandora - BTL weapon

Med
Gaymede - troopship and bombard
Ikarus - A front gun and carrier
Theseus - dirt cheap for what it "could" do. Chances are it might get 1 weapons free chance a game, but only being 9 hull means a quick death. Still its worth 89 pts

Heavy
Belleorphon BTL and 4 carrier, amazing ship
Hector - Shocker twin BTL and side options
Leonidas - Linked guns, so at least your side is a lot of shots. Still I dont like the ship personally.

Super
Herc more then minos, cause its Dark Cannon is second best gun in the game

The theme? Air and either cheap cheap sides or BTL. Why? Because that's good for them. The side cannons, right now suck because they don't pull their weight like front facing does. I will say it a million times. the game is about crits. You have a 3+ to hit, its vastly better then a 4+ as your hitting more and critting, bypassing the 3+ armor

str00dles1 wrote:
I promise when tourneys come out, if they are not fixed in some way, you will not see PHR anywhere near the top.. IF you do, it will be mass launch assets and as much burn through lasers as possible.

the problem with your pics is/ strat is you cant figure in the opponent. Anyone who plays this game knows you not let PHR get right up between you. They are very easy to out maneuver with the other 3 races.

Which is exactly what I was showing, so what you should do is split the fleet up and focus on more turns of one side shooting as opposed to 1 turn of weapons free from both.

We’re obviously gonna disagree on this, but I’ve played about 14 games so far, won 12 and the two I lost have been really close. I’m just not seeing PHR as being underpowered at the moment, more difficult to use ‘right’ sure but definitely powerful when they are.

Stranger83 wrote:

Ah, well yes, if your opponent wanted to full thrust then yes they'd get their earlier - but then of cause they have put a major spike on their force giving you the perfect opportunity to turn side on and blast away whilst out of range of reprisal.

Only Shaltari have the scan range to reliably get in range, I always full thrust my troopships

For opposing troopships I have my Lima and Avalon combo....

Stranger83 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
I promise when tourneys come out, if they are not fixed in some way, you will not see PHR anywhere near the top.. IF you do, it will be mass launch assets and as much burn through lasers as possible.

the problem with your pics is/ strat is you cant figure in the opponent. Anyone who plays this game knows you not let PHR get right up between you. They are very easy to out maneuver with the other 3 races.

Which is exactly what I was showing, so what you should do is split the fleet up and focus on more turns of one side shooting as opposed to 1 turn of weapons free from both.

We’re obviously gonna disagree on this, but I’ve played about 14 games so far, won 12 and the two I lost have been really close. I’m just not seeing PHR as being underpowered at the moment, more difficult to use ‘right’ sure but definitely powerful when they are.

But that's my point. Multiple turns of shooting mediocre side guns does not make up for them shooting weapons free at your fleet turns before you do. It math wise just doesn't work. Your single side guns do not match weapons free of the other races front guns. We are not going to agree, but theres many more people who are vastly disappointed with PHR then happy with them. To which i'll keep voicing it in hopes Hawk changes them

str00dles1 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
I promise when tourneys come out, if they are not fixed in some way, you will not see PHR anywhere near the top.. IF you do, it will be mass launch assets and as much burn through lasers as possible.

the problem with your pics is/ strat is you cant figure in the opponent. Anyone who plays this game knows you not let PHR get right up between you. They are very easy to out maneuver with the other 3 races.

Which is exactly what I was showing, so what you should do is split the fleet up and focus on more turns of one side shooting as opposed to 1 turn of weapons free from both.

We’re obviously gonna disagree on this, but I’ve played about 14 games so far, won 12 and the two I lost have been really close. I’m just not seeing PHR as being underpowered at the moment, more difficult to use ‘right’ sure but definitely powerful when they are.

But that's my point. Multiple turns of shooting mediocre side guns does not make up for them shooting weapons free at your fleet turns before you do. It math wise just doesn't work. Your single side guns do not match weapons free of the other races front guns. We are not going to agree, but theres many more people who are vastly disappointed with PHR then happy with them. To which i'll keep voicing it in hopes Hawk changes them

But their not going weapons free - by spreading out you are forcing yourself into their side arcs, which means they cannot bring all their guns onto you. With PHR you need to play to your strengths much more than any of the other factions.

It's not a play style to everybodys flavour, positioning and keeping out of the enemy front arc whilst maximising your sides is the name of the game with the PHR - but I think that they currently play exactly like Hawk expect them to. If you want to charge up the middle with all guns firing then UCM are probably the faction for you.

And I still don't see how they are shooting you 'turns' before you are shooting them. They shouldn't be able to shoot more than 6" range until you are in position without forcing themselves to light up like a Christmas tree (and also stopping themselves going weapons free as you can only do 1 order a turn). As an honest question can you explain what I'm missing that is allowing your opponents to get these multiple rounds of shooting at weapons free on you before you can even react?

Thanks for the pictures!

There's always the active scanning frigate situation to take account of, as well as the UCM being a faction that's typically based around turrets.

It's also potentially just the sheer trickiness of it all. Your also needing to take into account a potential 45 degree turn at the start of their move, followed by a half speed movement.

I'm not saying what you're suggesting is wrong, however I suppose the way to think of it is, of your doing all this stuff and you're doing it successfully in a way to compete with your opponent it already suggests your personal skill level is way higher than theirs, therefore you'd be way more successful if you just picked another faction.

 Compel wrote:
Thanks for the pictures!

There's always the active scanning frigate situation to take account of, as well as the UCM being a faction that's typically based around turrets.

It's also potentially just the sheer trickiness of it all. Your also needing to take into account a potential 45 degree turn at the start of their move, followed by a half speed movement.

All true, though it you do get them to start splitting up their force to come after your ships you're already starting to break up their battle plan - always good if you can get them to react to you rather than the other way around. And yes, the UCM frigate is definitely something you need to be mindful of - but it is rare so you're not going to face too many and at least it's one less combat or troop ship you need to worry about.

 Compel wrote:

I'm not saying what you're suggesting is wrong, however I suppose the way to think of it is, of your doing all this stuff and you're doing it successfully in a way to compete with your opponent it already suggests your personal skill level is way higher than theirs, therefore you'd be way more successful if you just picked another faction.

Possibly true, but I prefer the PHR style of play, which I guess is the point I'm trying to make. They aren't 'weak' they just have a different style of play to other factions, which is kind of the point or you just end up with 4 factions that play the same but with different style ships.

There is nothing wrong with going hyper aggressive, but really Scourge excel for that. Nothing wrong with floating in all guns blazing, but UCM excel for that. Nothing wrong with sitting back and blasting away whilst out of range, but Shaltari excel for that. With PHR you've chosen the 'Get around you're sides we are better than you' faction and that's what you should be focusing on, to say they are weak because they aren't as good as what other factions are supposed to excel at just seems strange to me, and indicates you may have chosen the wrong faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

Ah, well yes, if your opponent wanted to full thrust then yes they'd get their earlier - but then of cause they have put a major spike on their force giving you the perfect opportunity to turn side on and blast away whilst out of range of reprisal.

Only Shaltari have the scan range to reliably get in range, I always full thrust my troopships

Are you sure on that?

Assuming a 48" standard table width lets make some conservative assumptions.

Turn 1
Opponent moves his ship on 7" in turn 1, most ships will move more than this but it's a good low end figure to work from
You then flat out your troop ship 14" in turn 1, giving you a major spike

There is now 27" between the two ships

Turn 2
The opposition moves his ship forward 7" again, there are now 20" between the two ships

Lets assume you have the worst scan possible of 6" and that you are Shaltari (I assume you're not as you mention troop ships) with the best signature of 3", plus a major spike of 12". This given a shooting range of 21", meaning they are in range by 1", so from turn 2 I'd be shooting your troop ships even if we work on the worst possible distances in the game.

Ok, fair enough this is assuming we are facing head on, but it's also based on the best possible situation with scan/signature, against PHR and Scourge you'd be in range with 6" to spare!

Stranger83 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
I promise when tourneys come out, if they are not fixed in some way, you will not see PHR anywhere near the top.. IF you do, it will be mass launch assets and as much burn through lasers as possible.

the problem with your pics is/ strat is you cant figure in the opponent. Anyone who plays this game knows you not let PHR get right up between you. They are very easy to out maneuver with the other 3 races.

Which is exactly what I was showing, so what you should do is split the fleet up and focus on more turns of one side shooting as opposed to 1 turn of weapons free from both.

We’re obviously gonna disagree on this, but I’ve played about 14 games so far, won 12 and the two I lost have been really close. I’m just not seeing PHR as being underpowered at the moment, more difficult to use ‘right’ sure but definitely powerful when they are.

But that's my point. Multiple turns of shooting mediocre side guns does not make up for them shooting weapons free at your fleet turns before you do. It math wise just doesn't work. Your single side guns do not match weapons free of the other races front guns. We are not going to agree, but theres many more people who are vastly disappointed with PHR then happy with them. To which i'll keep voicing it in hopes Hawk changes them

But their not going weapons free - by spreading out you are forcing yourself into their side arcs, which means they cannot bring all their guns onto you. With PHR you need to play to your strengths much more than any of the other factions.

It's not a play style to everybodys flavour, positioning and keeping out of the enemy front arc whilst maximising your sides is the name of the game with the PHR - but I think that they currently play exactly like Hawk expect them to. If you want to charge up the middle with all guns firing then UCM are probably the faction for you.

And I still don't see how they are shooting you 'turns' before you are shooting them. They shouldn't be able to shoot more than 6" range until you are in position without forcing themselves to light up like a Christmas tree (and also stopping themselves going weapons free as you can only do 1 order a turn). As an honest question can you explain what I'm missing that is allowing your opponents to get these multiple rounds of shooting at weapons free on you before you can even react?

Theres tons of math posts on hawk proving the broadsides are not that good at all. Not as horrible as particle cannons currently, but close.

Your missing the point also if it being objective based. Your not going to pull them away and split them up. They need to go to the objectives just like you do. Even if you silent run, you can be pinged to death and lit up . Turn two they can light you up and start shooting. You can only return fire if you also play the ping war and have burnthrough lasers.

The full intent is having best armor and most hp, getting in the middle and blasting away. Which is a cool and good idea (though stupid in the far future tactics wise but I digress) but in actual game play, it doesn't work. If you like them that's fine, but don't say anything about how people are not playing them correctly or "the right way to play them is" because people have tried it. Your opponent (provided they are competent) knows exactly where you will be going and what your trying to do, so it is easy for them to react and prevent that.

PHR need fixed. Bottom line. I enjoy the game a lot, but I wont be playing my 3k+ points worth of PHR until then

Stranger83 wrote:

You then flat out your troop ship 14" in turn 1, giving you a major spike

I don't move flat out, I move enough to get within 6" of a sector on turn 2 and my troopships activate last on turn 1 which makes it difficult to predict where they will go. So far they haven't received effective fire before turn 3.

This doesn't work against Shaltari though

Ah, we’re talking about sectors/spaceships that are quite far into your own deployment half – fair enough then, though in that case I’d argue that the fact you are getting there before me isn’t THAT much of a thing I should be worried about, if it’s something that is in your half of the table I’d be expecting you to get there first anyway.

Keeping in mind the idea that half way up the table is 24” and you want to get there by turn 2. With a 6” drop you need to be 18” up the table by the end of turn two if you want to get to a sector that is ‘half way’. You’d be looking at an 11” move from your max thrust in turn one which with anything other than Shaltari still puts you in a potential danger zone, though admittedly a limited one. (Scan/sig + major spike usually adds 24” so your opponent would have need to have moved 9” in turn 1, 7” for PHR. -2” if you play as Scourge)

Not that I’m saying you shouldn’t do it, just that it has an element of risk involved.

EDIT, my numbers are a little off, your opponent would need to have moved 13" in turn 1, or 11" for PHR. You therefore probably can make this and JUST be out of range from being shot in turn 2 if you get the distance just right, which is something I've just learned so is good to know.

They need to go to the objectives just like you do. Even if you silent run, you can be pinged to death and lit up

Just on that - its not certain you can break the run Silent - you haev to roll 4+ and then all you do is take the roder away - you don;t give it a spike.(p43) - and you def get a major spike.

Only played a few games but frigates behind terrain are good for scanning.

I did not realise quite how complex the whole secetors stuff is which is a little off putting.

Stranger83 wrote:
You therefore probably can make this and JUST be out of range from being shot in turn 2 if you get the distance just right, which is something I've just learned so is good to know.

If I get a troopship to a cluster first I will be deploying a defense battery which is a huge advantage for subsequent turns, not to mention an extra turn of troop deployment if the troopship manages to survive into turn 3. Basically if a troopship gets to a cluster uncontested it will probably not be lost throughout the game (without concerted and disproportionate effort on the part of the opponent).

That and it doesn't need to be the Lima frigate that's doing the active scanning.

Any frigate squadron on the first turn could quite happily have the furthest back ship active scan. - Sure, that one frigate might immediately die, but who cares? Heck, even two or 3 frigates, each from a different group or battlegroup might as well do it against a single ship if it means 1 turn KOing a troop transport, it's worth the sacrifice.

 Mr Morden wrote:

They need to go to the objectives just like you do. Even if you silent run, you can be pinged to death and lit up

Just on that - its not certain you can break the run Silent - you haev to roll 4+ and then all you do is take the roder away - you don;t give it a spike.(p43) - and you def get a major spike.

Only played a few games but frigates behind terrain are good for scanning.

I did not realise quite how complex the whole secetors stuff is which is a little off putting.

But its well worth it to do that if you can fire forwards. Its a frigate. A cheap few shots ship that's only purpose is to scan usually, and if ignored, can cause some damage if it swarms.

Stat wise, 2 Limas take a ship out of Silent. Then another Frigate in the group can scan it for yellow, then another group can scan it for red. Granted, your hard pressed to be able to hit turn one phr unless you double moved, but if you get to go first next turn, your going to smash that red ship. This can affect all races, but PHR don't have that option to really return fire, unless you have lots of BTL, which is the only way to play them currently. Mass BTL

str00dles1 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

They need to go to the objectives just like you do. Even if you silent run, you can be pinged to death and lit up

Just on that - its not certain you can break the run Silent - you haev to roll 4+ and then all you do is take the roder away - you don;t give it a spike.(p43) - and you def get a major spike.

Only played a few games but frigates behind terrain are good for scanning.

I did not realise quite how complex the whole secetors stuff is which is a little off putting.

But its well worth it to do that if you can fire forwards. Its a frigate. A cheap few shots ship that's only purpose is to scan usually, and if ignored, can cause some damage if it swarms.

Stat wise, 2 Limas take a ship out of Silent. Then another Frigate in the group can scan it for yellow, then another group can scan it for red. Granted, your hard pressed to be able to hit turn one phr unless you double moved, but if you get to go first next turn, your going to smash that red ship. This can affect all races, but PHR don't have that option to really return fire, unless you have lots of BTL, which is the only way to play them currently. Mass BTL

Can you active scan with non detector ship in the same group as a Detector ship that has already scanned or vice versa - can you active scan with a detector if a non dector in the group has laready scanned.

Detector allows you to scan regardless if the group is on other orders and any number of Dectors can scan but can both Dectors and non Detectors in a group Active Scan in the same activation or does it depend on the order you activate them?

 Mr Morden wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

They need to go to the objectives just like you do. Even if you silent run, you can be pinged to death and lit up

Just on that - its not certain you can break the run Silent - you haev to roll 4+ and then all you do is take the roder away - you don;t give it a spike.(p43) - and you def get a major spike.

Only played a few games but frigates behind terrain are good for scanning.

I did not realise quite how complex the whole secetors stuff is which is a little off putting.

But its well worth it to do that if you can fire forwards. Its a frigate. A cheap few shots ship that's only purpose is to scan usually, and if ignored, can cause some damage if it swarms.

Stat wise, 2 Limas take a ship out of Silent. Then another Frigate in the group can scan it for yellow, then another group can scan it for red. Granted, your hard pressed to be able to hit turn one phr unless you double moved, but if you get to go first next turn, your going to smash that red ship. This can affect all races, but PHR don't have that option to really return fire, unless you have lots of BTL, which is the only way to play them currently. Mass BTL

Can you active scan with non detector ship in the same group as a Detector ship that has already scanned or vice versa - can you active scan with a detector if a non dector in the group has laready scanned.

Detector allows you to scan regardless if the group is on other orders and any number of Dectors can scan but can both Dectors and non Detectors in a group Active Scan in the same activation or does it depend on the order you activate them?

Every group can scan, and by group I mean how the battle group is broken into.

Lets say In my battlegroup (card) I have 2 Hectors and 2 Medea's. In this battlegroup I can scan 4 times. Hector is G1, and Medea is 1-2. I can choose to put both Medeas in a single "group" of 2 or leave them as each their own group of 1 and 1. If I leave them as a group of two, I can then only scan 3 times.

In your example its the same. It states as the last sentence "Every Detector ship in a group may active scan, not just one"

Why that is important is for the above example. If I wanted to scan 4 times, I need my Medea I separate groups. Detector lets you keep them in a group.

The big reason why some need to be in groups is to maintain coherency with the others in the group.

Might seem confusing, but think of it as Battlegrouop your Card with its total tonnage, and your groups, the sections you split out in the battlegroup. They act as one, but one group at a time moves and fires, then the next on the card.

Realistically, there is no reason to take 2 Lima in a single group. They are 1-2 so take them a separate, then you get past the coherency rules.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
You therefore probably can make this and JUST be out of range from being shot in turn 2 if you get the distance just right, which is something I've just learned so is good to know.

If I get a troopship to a cluster first I will be deploying a defense battery which is a huge advantage for subsequent turns, not to mention an extra turn of troop deployment if the troopship manages to survive into turn 3. Basically if a troopship gets to a cluster uncontested it will probably not be lost throughout the game (without concerted and disproportionate effort on the part of the opponent).

another reason why I prefer the Ganymede - doesn't matter if they get there first and deploy defensive batteries - I'll just clear them out before i start to drop my ships.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

str00dles1 wrote:


Every group can scan, and by group I mean how the battle group is broken into.

Lets say In my battlegroup (card) I have 2 Hectors and 2 Medea's. In this battlegroup I can scan 4 times. Hector is G1, and Medea is 1-2. I can choose to put both Medeas in a single "group" of 2 or leave them as each their own group of 1 and 1. If I leave them as a group of two, I can then only scan 3 times.

In your example its the same. It states as the last sentence "Every Detector ship in a group may active scan, not just one"

Why that is important is for the above example. If I wanted to scan 4 times, I need my Medea I separate groups. Detector lets you keep them in a group.

The big reason why some need to be in groups is to maintain coherency with the others in the group.

Might seem confusing, but think of it as Battlegrouop your Card with its total tonnage, and your groups, the sections you split out in the battlegroup. They act as one, but one group at a time moves and fires, then the next on the card.

Realistically, there is no reason to take 2 Lima in a single group. They are 1-2 so take them a separate, then you get past the coherency rules.

I don;t ave my book to hand, but I'm fairly sure that isn't correct. Only one ship can active scan per activation, unless you have a detector ship in there also. Otherwise I could take a battlegroup on 1 hector, 1 pandora, 1 europa, 1 medea, 1 Ganymede, ect and scan 15 times as my first battlegroup action each turn.

I don't have my rulebook to hand, but I'm pretty sure you are playing that one wrong - which might explain why you are getting shot up so much before you can get your ships in position.

Essentially, without a detector ship then your opponent needs to activate and give an active scan order to a minimum of three battlegroups to be able to move you from silent running to a major spike, and that would be assuming he gets lucky with his first 4+ roll to get you off silent running and would only be on a single ship

EDIT: Actually, just googled the rule and it does say group, not battlegroup. so seems I may have been playing the wrong after all. Wonder if it's a typo as it seems like an odd restriction to put in otherwise, generally you only get groups of one, unless they are maybe wanting to stop you from spamming it with frigates.

Seems like I might need to spend a little bit of time and rethink my tactics a little bit.

Stranger83 wrote:

another reason why I prefer the Ganymede - doesn't matter if they get there first and deploy defensive batteries - I'll just clear them out before i start to drop my ships.

I haven't yet lost on to bombardment and the last Ganymede that tried to bombard had an interesting encounter with a Viper superheavy laser

I'm not that sure on the worth of troopships in this game to be honest. They are a priority target who need to be in engagement range to perform their role and while they can certainly drop a lot of troops they are pretty poor troops (aside from defense batteries of course). For 1 troopship you could get 3-4 strike carriers who will almost certainly live longer due to being in atmosphere, will give you much more flexibility and can attack defended clusters far more easily.

At the moment I always field a San Fransisco and it is inevitably flaming wreckage by turn 4 at the latest.

str00dles1 wrote:

Lets say In my battlegroup (card) I have 2 Hectors and 2 Medea's. In this battlegroup I can scan 4 times. Hector is G1, and Medea is 1-2. I can choose to put both Medeas in a single "group" of 2 or leave them as each their own group of 1 and 1. If I leave them as a group of two, I can then only scan 3 times.

When I was over at the Hawk forums, I was surprised to read an interpretation (backed by RAW) that no, you don't actually have the option to split the Medeas nor Hectors even though the latter are G1. Per page 40 of the rulebook:

All ships of the same class in a Battlegroup automatically form a group together

Emphasis added. Apparently the G stat matters for list building, but not gameplay which the poster was lamenting was really kind of poor rules writing for the obvious confusion that causes. In light of that reading of the rule, your example Battlegroup can Active Scan twice.

You can split the Medea's sure to the 'Open' rule but the Hector's would need to be together.

 Compel wrote:
You can split the Medea's sure to the 'Open' rule but the Hector's would need to be together.

Split them, yes but they still form a single groups so you can only active scan with one of them.

 Compel wrote:
You can split the Medea's sure to the 'Open' rule but the Hector's would need to be together.

Open doesn't allow you to split them into different Groups, they simply ignore coherency and penalties normally attached to being in a group. Thus they're still a group, they can just operate on opposite sides of the board while the Hectors have to maintain 6" from each other (but do not have to be within Battlegroup coherency of either Medea due to Open). For the purposes of orders such as Active Scan and activation, they are still in the same Group.

The conversation was jumping all over the place a bit there

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

another reason why I prefer the Ganymede - doesn't matter if they get there first and deploy defensive batteries - I'll just clear them out before i start to drop my ships.

I'm not that sure on the worth of troopships in this game to be honest. They are a priority target who need to be in engagement range to perform their role and while they can certainly drop a lot of troops they are pretty poor troops (aside from defense batteries of course). For 1 troopship you could get 3-4 strike carriers who will almost certainly live longer due to being in atmosphere, will give you much more flexibility and can attack defended clusters far more easily.

At the moment I always field a San Fransisco and it is inevitably flaming wreckage by turn 4 at the latest.

Whilst I agree with you to some degree, the PHR ones are much more than 'just' troop ships so I think they are worth taking. Essentially they are the same cost of the light frigate with the same guns, plus the Medea but with more drop capacity and more HP. I do think that the Scourge/UCM ones suffer however as you say however.

I assume since you mention strike carriers being safe in Atmo that you're not currently playing with Corvettes? When you do you'll start to see why troop ships are worth their weight in gold as being in atmo is no longer a guarantee of safety.

The other reason the people I play tend to prefer the three troops over the strike carriers 1 armor is precisely because I go for 2/3 Ganymede's, the advantage of being safer from the bombardment isn't lost on them.