Chaos Space Marine tacticals vs Space Marine CODEX tacticals why one is better.

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**Insectum7**

Drakeslayer wrote:
Bringing the conversation back to CSM, I find it interesting how no one has mentioned icons.
Sure, the Icon of Nurgle is practically useless because everyone and their mum's has Fearless or ATSKNF these days, and I've never had much Luck with an Icon of Flame but (being a Slaaneshi chaos player) I do find being able to give my marines FNP in large blobs does improve their sticking power. Granted, Plague Marines are probably better in this respect, but they can't take heavy weapons and having a durable heavy weapons unit can be a god-send (as my opponents systematically target them in almost every game).

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that with an Icon of Vengeance, you can give Chaos Marines Fearless. Now that has a few limitations so you can't claim our weapons are useless - so avoid contemptor dreads and the like at all costs (unless you have a power fist or melta bombs), but in a unit of say 20 men with Fearless - now that is scary.

My thoughts on combat squads is that they have the potential to be tactically advantageous, but I find that when my opponents do so it just helps me to roll them up quicker. A well placed blastmaster can then wipe out a combat squad, and if you have four or more small squads of Noise Marines armed with the sound cannons then you can rain hell on combat squads, even ones that try to avoid attention at the furthest end of the battlefield. So while I can see the advantages of combat squads, in practice I have never seen them succeed.

Yeah I'm starting to look at Marks and Icons while going through my old gaming groups collection of models, and I'm liking what I see. Also the fact that the Chaos marines can exchange their Boltgun for a CC weapon for free. Starting at 13 ppm, giving them the mark of Slaanesh for +1 I, and then giving them the Icon of excess for FNP, 20 man squad. Joining them with a Character makes them Fearless, and you have a huge unit that can soak a bunch of fire. I'm liking the potential of that, especially if I can use psychic powers to jump them forward on the table, or taking Ahriman to infiltrate them.

I'm starting to think the fun way to use the basic CSM squad is to embrace their CC weapons and large units.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah I'm starting to look at Marks and Icons while going through my old gaming groups collection of models, and I'm liking what I see. Also the fact that the Chaos marines can exchange their Boltgun for a CC weapon for free. Starting at 13 ppm, giving them the mark of Slaanesh for +1 I, and then giving them the Icon of excess for FNP, 20 man squad. Joining them with a Character makes them Fearless, and you have a huge unit that can soak a bunch of fire. I'm liking the potential of that, especially if I can use psychic powers to jump them forward on the table, or taking Ahriman to infiltrate them.

I'm starting to think the fun way to use the basic CSM squad is to embrace their CC weapons and large units.

Yeah have fun walking that unit across the board, since it's too big to put in anything.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Anything like that needs guaranteed Infiltrate at the very least.

**Roknar**

Or , you, give them literal jump, guaranteed, no way to deny. And hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance while you're at it (I think?). Wonder if that makes khorne berzerkes more interesting in a maelstrom of gore. They could potentially charge turn 1, although it would require a dang near perfect roll.
Either zerkers or marines could still get feel no pain via auloth, which would also make marines fearless.

Man I'm a little bit hyped for the traitor legion supplement now.

**Insectum7**

Well, I included Ahriman at the end because he is an automatic infiltrate for the unit. (Warlord Trait) But I'm thinking a more fun way to go at it is to use a couple Sorcerers to get the Chaos version of Electrodisplacement. The other ingredient is Chaos Bikes.

Ahriman infiltrates the Chaos Bikers.

Turn 1, Bikers move 12" towards the enemy line.

In the Psychic phase you Elecdrodisplacement-swap the bikes with the 20+ man mob. Then charge with the mob in the assault phase. The Bikes get you further than you could normally go with their move distance, and because you swap them out you bypass the restriction on infiltrating units being unable to charge in the first turn.

I also re-noticed that the Icon of Wrath gets you a re-roll on the charge, so that's another interesting option.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Roknar wrote:
Or , you, give them literal jump, guaranteed, no way to deny. And hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance while you're at it (I think?). Wonder if that makes khorne berzerkes more interesting in a maelstrom of gore. They could potentially charge turn 1, although it would require a dang near perfect roll.
Either zerkers or marines could still get feel no pain via auloth, which would also make marines fearless.

Man I'm a little bit hyped for the traitor legion supplement now.

I don't think you would be able to do that since part of the rules is that you can't have marks of another god in the army, again I think.

**wuestenfux**

mrhappyface wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
The Sigil is 25 points, not 40.

Holy moly was I talking rubbish. I was adding up the sigil and the mark then adding the mark again.

God damnit, you made me look stupid!

Oh my goodness. Mr. Farrage is also here. Any exit vote concerning GW?

I think there is no real winner here. Both units are useful in an objective based game. Nothing else.

**Sonic Keyboard**

Insectum7 wrote:
Well, I included Ahriman at the end because he is an automatic infiltrate for the unit. (Warlord Trait) But I'm thinking a more fun way to go at it is to use a couple Sorcerers to get the Chaos version of Electrodisplacement. The other ingredient is Chaos Bikes.

Ahriman infiltrates the Chaos Bikers.

Did they remove the restriction of only Infantry infiltrating by his trait?

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Well, I included Ahriman at the end because he is an automatic infiltrate for the unit. (Warlord Trait) But I'm thinking a more fun way to go at it is to use a couple Sorcerers to get the Chaos version of Electrodisplacement. The other ingredient is Chaos Bikes.

Ahriman infiltrates the Chaos Bikers.

Did they remove the restriction of only Infantry infiltrating by his trait?

Thats a good point they did not as far as I know.

**Roknar**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Roknar wrote:
Or , you, give them literal jump, guaranteed, no way to deny. And hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance while you're at it (I think?). Wonder if that makes khorne berzerkes more interesting in a maelstrom of gore. They could potentially charge turn 1, although it would require a dang near perfect roll.
Either zerkers or marines could still get feel no pain via auloth, which would also make marines fearless.

Man I'm a little bit hyped for the traitor legion supplement now.

I don't think you would be able to do that since part of the rules is that you can't have marks of another god in the army, again I think.

The rules for making a TSons detachement say you can't have any other mark in that detachment, not army iirc. You'd need two detachments/formations, but it would be doable.
Either way though, this and presumably the other legions too will add another layer of rules on top of what we get with traitor's hate, which is awesome. Of course it wouldn't work with fist of the gods for 5++ vehicles because reasons.
I really really hope Black Legion now also get a free VotLW instead of simply copy pasting the rules from the supplement. We already kind of have in traitors hate, but let's make it official shall we GW?

**nareik**

Drakeslayer, I find it interesting it took so long for icons to be mentioned too!

Don't forget in combat:

They give +1 Ld when losing by more than 1.
Autopass when losing by only 1.
Turn draws into enemy losses.
Penalise -1 Ld when enemies lose combat proper.

**Insectum7**

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Well, I included Ahriman at the end because he is an automatic infiltrate for the unit. (Warlord Trait) But I'm thinking a more fun way to go at it is to use a couple Sorcerers to get the Chaos version of Electrodisplacement. The other ingredient is Chaos Bikes.

Ahriman infiltrates the Chaos Bikers.

Did they remove the restriction of only Infantry infiltrating by his trait?

Whoops! Thanks, overlooked that.

Okaaay, then I'm going with infiltrating an Infantry unit with a Sorcerer, or just a Sorcerer, summoning daemons close to the enemy, then swapping the daemons position with the mob unit. Or I suppose you could ally with Daemons and get nearly the same result without the summoning power. But summoning in the Psychic Phase gets you past any Interceptor AFAIK. Not to mention the free unit.

Either way, I think the way to aggressively get the huge units across the table is Psychic powers, some of which will allow an Assault afterwards.

**peirceg**

Or just do swapsies with a unit of nurglings?