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 ShieldBrother wrote:
http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/10/25/opinion/opinion-bill-c-16-flawed-ways-most-canadians-have-not-considered

I for one think this is a terrible idea, considering how silly most of those "pronouns" can get. (Xer, Xee etc.) And now you can get in trouble if you don't want to call them their imaginary names. And considering how angry the whole LGBT feminist movement can get, makes some people that speak their mind very easy targets. (See the professor)

So what is Dakka's other Canadians thought on this?

Okay so, I'm not a Zhe, Xe, nor do I know the extent of these terms.
I am however a "Mx" (I believe pronounced "Mix", though day to day I don't ask for it). And I'd like to explain how that's not silly or imaginary, and how it is helpful to me that it's recognised.

Situation A: I am midway through transition, my voice or face doesn't entirely match my identity, and on paper my name is Miss, or Mr Buttery. So I call my banking company, and answer the security questions. Then I get more questions, and then I get a very apologetic woman who explains that I do not sound like a Mr or Miss, and perhaps I should visit the bank in person?
I explain to this person, who has no idea who I am, that I am transgender, a personal part of my existence, so I can get access to help with my banking. I spend the day feeling very uncomfortable and sad.
Repeat ad infinitum whenever I need to do anything minor but formal.

Situation B: My bank has my file as Mx Buttery, they have a little visual indicator with a flick of a finger, that shows I am not a Mr or Miss, I am a something and I don't have to explain that to someone I don't know. I get one set of security questions, and my PIN reset so I can continue with my afternoon.

So I don't assume protection of pronouns or terms is purely to vex folk into having to say them. In many cases they can simply be a way of helping folk to cope.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

 ShieldBrother wrote:
http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/10/25/opinion/opinion-bill-c-16-flawed-ways-most-canadians-have-not-considered

I for one think this is a terrible idea, considering how silly most of those "pronouns" can get. (Xer, Xee etc.) And now you can get in trouble if you don't want to call them their imaginary names. And considering how angry the whole LGBT feminist movement can get, makes some people that speak their mind very easy targets. (See the professor)

So what is Dakka's other Canadians thought on this?

Okay so, I'm not a Zhe, Xe, nor do I know the extent of these terms.
I am however a "Mx" (I believe pronounced "Mix", though day to day I don't ask for it). And I'd like to explain how that's not silly or imaginary, and how it is helpful to me that it's recognised.

Situation A: I am midway through transition, my voice or face doesn't entirely match my identity, and on paper my name is Miss, or Mr Buttery. So I call my banking company, and answer the security questions. Then I get more questions, and then I get a very apologetic woman who explains that I do not sound like a Mr or Miss, and perhaps I should visit the bank in person?
I explain to this person, who has no idea who I am, that I am transgender, a personal part of my existence, so I can get access to help with my banking. I spend the day feeling very uncomfortable and sad.
Repeat ad infinitum whenever I need to do anything minor but formal.

Situation B: My bank has my file as Mx Buttery, they have a little visual indicator with a flick of a finger, that shows I am not a Mr or Miss, I am a something and I don't have to explain that to someone I don't know. I get one set of security questions, and my PIN reset so I can continue with my afternoon.

So I don't assume protection of pronouns or terms is purely to vex folk into having to say them. In many cases they can simply be a way of helping folk to cope.

Sounds incredibly sensible and practical. I like it.

I'll admit, I was puzzling over how to even pronounce them, but now that you've explained it, it's quite obvious that what's actually going to happen with those pronouns is that they'll be used on documents to help with situations like yours purely as an indicator that things are not ordinary, and when conversing with other individuals you just use the standard pronoun of the appropriate gender. Am I correct in my interpretation?

 thekingofkings wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
"Chastised" is an interesting word when its the government doing the chastising.

Maybe you should read the article more closely.

Well in the US we have the First Amendment which protects us in this area. But your argument is essentially saying we'll quit beating you if you do what we say.

In Canada, we are very, very glad we are not America.

In fact, "acting like Americans" is a rather negative thing to say up here.

That feeling is quite mutual, our racists could learn alot from canada on how to oppress folks, you guys are top notch.

This is true. There are swathes of Canada that are as pig-ignorant as any stereotypical southern racist redneck trope.

I served with a Metis for about 4 years.

From what I know about the US your situation with natives is just as bad.

 Cheesecat wrote:
From what I know about the US your situation with natives is just as bad.

The pipeline in North Dakota's been all over the national news up here in Canada.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
"Chastised" is an interesting word when its the government doing the chastising.

Maybe you should read the article more closely.

Well in the US we have the First Amendment which protects us in this area. But your argument is essentially saying we'll quit beating you if you do what we say.

In Canada, we are very, very glad we are not America.

In fact, "acting like Americans" is a rather negative thing to say up here.

That feeling is quite mutual, our racists could learn alot from canada on how to oppress folks, you guys are top notch.

This is true. There are swathes of Canada that are as pig-ignorant as any stereotypical southern racist redneck trope.

I served with a Metis for about 4 years.

From what I know about the US your situation with natives is just as bad.

Absolutely, but I was pointing out that you don't get to sit and "US is so awful" when you do the same or even worse and then claim you are innocent, that is the very definition of a hypocrite. as for the pipeline, that has not been resolved yet.

 thekingofkings wrote:

Yah know, you really dont hear much out of Namibia...or Botswana....

Yes, but being an anti-lion racist is a lot more acceptable when the two options are to live or become lion lunch.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

Yah know, you really dont hear much out of Namibia...or Botswana....

Yes, but being an anti-lion racist is a lot more acceptable when the two options are to live or become lion lunch.

But are they "anti lion" or "anti lunch"??

 Pouncey wrote:
I'll admit, I was puzzling over how to even pronounce them, but now that you've explained it, it's quite obvious that what's actually going to happen with those pronouns is that they'll be used on documents to help with situations like yours purely as an indicator that things are not ordinary, and when conversing with other individuals you just use the standard pronoun of the appropriate gender. Am I correct in my interpretation?

Yes and no. For the majority of adults I know, and those I've spoken to, this is the case. Mx and such have been in circulation for decades, and most banks now recognise these titles and terms.

I can't speak for the current HS/college generation. I try not to stare at that too much because it gives me a headache. There seems to have indeed been a large jump of freedom to express oneself, and expectation that good things and acceptance will follow. Those with a few more years under the belt and a grasp of how slow certain progression can be, tend to eye that scene very warily.

On a day to day basis, pronouns, titles and such can seem like very small, almost insignificant factors in the life of someone making a large change.
But the reason that they can affect even rational, reserved trans folk is what is called "minority stress". This is where an individual is perpetually in a state of mild stress due to being aware their existence fits outside of the understanding and tolerance of others. Being constantly unsure about safety, affection, what is going to happen next, etc.
It leaves you fatigued, vulnerable to distress from ordinarily minor things, because the person exists in a constant state of alert without even knowing it.

To put that in human terms, I may well know that my bank does not mean to cause me harm if they get my name wrong. Big old automated banking system doesn't mean to cause anyone any issues.
But my body, after months of experiences, concerns and minority stress, decides that this typed-up letter wants me to feel like gak (and maybe even cry), because they wrote to me using out of date information.