Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"So are we talking WK spam or Scatbike spam or a combination of both? "

Every Eldar player I know knows the "skyhammer drill" now, except it works ever BETTER against regular drop lists. Leave the hard targets on the table, and reserve the bikes. Bring a cheap autarch for reserve manipulation.

The drop pods land, do nothing useful, and then the bikes come in far away from the dreads that now only move 6".

Drop them on objective markers and they don't even have to move out of their Lucius Pods.

"Even if they only wound on a 6+ it's not immune. "

Those are 14 marines not shooting something they can actually hurt in a 5 turn time scale.

Those are 14 marines that cost less than the MC in question.

Maybe. Those lucious pods won't last long vs scatterlasers. Crack open pod, and then d-blast of D-slap the dread inside. BA start off scoring points, but by turn 3 or so, the Eldar is doing all scoring.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"So are we talking WK spam or Scatbike spam or a combination of both? "

Every Eldar player I know knows the "skyhammer drill" now, except it works ever BETTER against regular drop lists. Leave the hard targets on the table, and reserve the bikes. Bring a cheap autarch for reserve manipulation.

The drop pods land, do nothing useful, and then the bikes come in far away from the dreads that now only move 6".

Drop them on objective markers and they don't even have to move out of their Lucius Pods.

"Even if they only wound on a 6+ it's not immune. "

Those are 14 marines not shooting something they can actually hurt in a 5 turn time scale.

Those are 14 marines that cost less than the MC in question.

Maybe. Those lucious pods won't last long vs scatterlasers. Crack open pod, and then d-blast of D-slap the dread inside. BA start off scoring points, but by turn 3 or so, the Eldar is doing all scoring.

Then the other Dreads arrive and flame out the Scattbikes. BA don't have Skyhammer - everything arrives first turn they have the regular half drop pods rounded up.

Yes, which means they can jink half the drops by starting in reserve. Sure, drop on top of my WK.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, which means they can jink half the drops by starting in reserve. Sure, drop on top of my WK.

So you'd leave WraithKnights on the field for your first turn? D-Canons or Sword and Shield?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, which means they can jink half the drops by starting in reserve. Sure, drop on top of my WK.

So you'd leave WraithKnights on the field for your first turn? D-Canons or Sword and Shield?

I don't know. Probably depends on the rest of my list. Eldar are undercosted, so they might have other hard targets like a wave serpent or something. They can afford it.

Skyhammer is much trickier, actually. They usually reserve many bikes but hide a few, since Skyhammer can definitely remove a WK. Dreadnought party can't even get close. I really don't see how Eldar using the skyhammer drill don't hard counter the dreadnought party.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, which means they can jink half the drops by starting in reserve. Sure, drop on top of my WK.

So you'd leave WraithKnights on the field for your first turn? D-Canons or Sword and Shield?

I don't know. Probably depends on the rest of my list. Eldar are undercosted, so they might have other hard targets like a wave serpent or something. They can afford it.

Skyhammer is much trickier, actually. They usually reserve many bikes but hide a few, since Skyhammer can definitely remove a WK. Dreadnought party can't even get close. I really don't see how Eldar using the skyhammer drill don't hard counter the dreadnought party.

Criminally undercosted - no way I'm arguing that.
Libby Dreads with Flamers won't be much use against the D-canon WK but a couple of Dreads with Plasma Canons can off the D Canon WK.
The WKs with the shield/gun shield/sword combos are the two I have no idea about, how he could have scrubbed them is outside my ken - I know Psychic shenanigans from the Space Marine psyker cards but I don't own them myself so the discipline mentioned went in one ear and out the other.

I'm seeing the sword one more and more because it's got layered saves vs AP2. Init 5 D strength swings are brutal.

I literally lol'd at the notion that Plasma Cannon Dreads were in any way effective against a Wraithknight, even without an Invuln. Anyone want to do the math on that?

6 * 3/2 for FnP * 3 (5+ to wound) = 27 plasma hits
So 990 points of plasma dreads hitting every other time would kill it over 6 turns

I've seen it done with 680pts over two rounds. Four Dreads, Lucius pods and Lady Luck in the back pocket.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've seen it done with 680pts over two rounds. Four Dreads, Lucius pods and Lady Luck in the back pocket.

That doesn't really mean much. You can just as easily get unlucky and never kill it.

WK is by far the most competitive unit in the entire 40k world, it needs to be nerfed too. It just should have an IK profile, AV13 and 5-6 HPs, an invuln save, but no FNP (maybe replaced with It Will Not Die), and an appropriate points value, which is around 350-400 points.

Nerfing grav and only grav would clearly upset SM players, I think nerfing one of the most overpowered thing and only one is still something, but honestly 4-5 things should be nerfed along with grav weapons. Right now grav spam is abused beacuse there are overpowered units that are too tough to kill otherwise. Making them more balanced would disappear the need of taking grav weapons everywhere so those weapons could be nerfed without destroying the SM potential.

And then other Centurions' options become more viable and common.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've seen it done with 680pts over two rounds. Four Dreads, Lucius pods and Lady Luck in the back pocket.

You hear that guys? If you always roll significantly above average, you too can be successful!

 Blackie wrote:
WK is by far the most competitive unit in the entire 40k world, it needs to be nerfed too. It just should have an IK profile, AV13 and 5-6 HPs, an invuln save, but no FNP (maybe replaced with It Will Not Die), and an appropriate points value, which is around 350-400 points.

Nerfing grav and only grav would clearly upset SM players, I think nerfing one of the most overpowered thing and only one is still something, but honestly 4-5 things should be nerfed along with grav weapons. Right now grav spam is abused beacuse there are overpowered units that are too tough to kill otherwise. Making them more balanced would disappear the need of taking grav weapons everywhere so those weapons could be nerfed without destroying the SM potential.

And then other Centurions' options become more viable and common.

So at that point, we might as well go total rewrite. You can't fix grav in a vacuum. Quit trying. Lascannons would still suck. Missile launchers would still suck. The other options are still worthless.

Or we could just buff the other options -

Las cannons on a roll of a 6 to hit get armorbane/fleshbane/instant death/ and AP1.

Something like this would make single shot weapons high risk high reward and actually worth taking.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Or we could just buff the other options -

Las cannons on a roll of a 6 to hit get armorbane/fleshbane/instant death/ and AP1.

Something like this would make single shot weapons high risk high reward and actually worth taking.

That's still crappy because of low rate of fire. They need to be consistently better. Like they cause 2 wounds/hull points all the time. And T6 can't use FNP against them because it burns a hole straight through them. As long as lascannons can't beat the layered saves consistently, there will be no reason to take them. Fishing for 6's is a good way to lose.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Or we could just buff the other options -

Las cannons on a roll of a 6 to hit get armorbane/fleshbane/instant death/ and AP1.

Something like this would make single shot weapons high risk high reward and actually worth taking.

That's still crappy because of low rate of fire. They need to be consistently better. Like they cause 2 wounds/hull points all the time. And T6 can't use FNP against them because it burns a hole straight through them. As long as lascannons can't beat the layered saves consistently, there will be no reason to take them. Fishing for 6's is a good way to lose.

It's just an idea. I like the long range risk reward vs short range reliablity that LC and Melta used to create. When they added hullpoints though - the lower reliablity of a LC just became such an off chance at a good damage result that they became useless. I think making results of 6 to hit with these type weapons a nearly assured kill after a failed save would go a long way to help them be viable.

Martel732 wrote:


So at that point, we might as well go total rewrite. You can't fix grav in a vacuum. Quit trying. Lascannons would still suck. Missile launchers would still suck. The other options are still worthless.

Not a total rewrite, I think only 5-6 things should be changed in the entire 40k world, considering core rules, codexes and supplements. If you make other centurions' options more appealing you're just adding another problem as SM are still one the most competitive armies and surely don't need other helps. S8 ap3 and S9 ap2 weapons are powerful enough against 98% of the possibile enemy units. You take grav mostly to kill those 3-4 overpowered MCs but if you also nerf them as they surely deserve the abuse of grav wouldn't be necessary and the entire game would be more balanced.

That's where you are dead wrong. Even my ba largely don't care about single shot weapons like lascannons. They suck in 7th and can't be fixed by changing 5-6 things. The game is way sicker than you think. Marines suck without their gimmicks. Hell ba have grav but we can't use it effectively because our tacs can't have it and we get no skyhammer and no cents. If grav was as great as you say, ba should at least be good. Right? But they're not.

I never voluntarily bring lascannons because they suck in almost every matchup. I have many ba lists with nk heavy support at all, because it all sucks for the ba.

Keep the price the same. Get rid of grav-amp. Depending on the version of grav weapons - 3/5/6 shots on a relentless platform which they all are generally on, should not also get to reroll wounds.

Make it a twinlinked Grav cannon then - since all the others are twinlinked also.