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Martel732 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Only because this is a thread about grav centurions, and only SM rely on grav so much. There are other fix to make in order to balance the game of course, but grav weapons should be nerfed badly, no matter what.

SM with no grav weapons at all are still among the top 2 armies.

I disagree.

That would make five armies in the top two.
Vanilla Marines
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Eldar

Blood Angels drop-podding massed first turn threats can and will cripple any army that isn't 100% prepared to deal with it but if they can't cripple on the first turn they lose. It's impressive when it works but any army that can cover the majority of their deployment zone will laugh at the tactic and there isn't any backup play for the Angels, they're relying on glass canons.

I still don't see why BA doing it is any better than skyhammer lists.

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't see why BA doing it is any better than skyhammer lists.

Blood Angels do it with Dreadnoughts.
Massed Heavy Flamers, Plasma Canons and other Heavy Weapons that aren't snap-firing on entry.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


That would make five armies in the top two.
Vanilla Marines
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Eldar

I think that SM stupid and overpowered formations keep them tied with eldar even without taking a single grav weapon in their list. With grav spam SM are the most overpowered army in the game, better than eldar. SW and DA are not that competitive, BA while not being that bad are not at the same level of these two chapters.

A skilled player can surely win a tournament with SM even without grav weapons, gladius and skyhammer formations.

 Blackie wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


That would make five armies in the top two.
Vanilla Marines
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Eldar

I think that SM stupid and overpowered formations keep them tied with eldar even without taking a single grav weapon in their list. With grav spam SM are the most overpowered army in the game, better than eldar. SW and DA are not that competitive, BA while not being that bad are not at the same level of these two chapters.

A skilled player can surely win a tournament with SM even without grav weapons, gladius and skyhammer formations.

Your logic is terrible because Dark Angels and the regular codex are almost completely identical for what's competitive. Your post reeks of butthurt and not understanding the rankings.

 Blackie wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


That would make five armies in the top two.
Vanilla Marines
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Eldar

I think that SM stupid and overpowered formations keep them tied with eldar even without taking a single grav weapon in their list. With grav spam SM are the most overpowered army in the game, better than eldar. SW and DA are not that competitive, BA while not being that bad are not at the same level of these two chapters.

A skilled player can surely win a tournament with SM even without grav weapons, gladius and skyhammer formations.

A skilled player can. Funny thing I've noticed is that skilled players tend to buy the competitive armies anyway.
I can only think of one player who I would consider skilled beyond his army - he plays Guard.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


That would make five armies in the top two.
Vanilla Marines
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Eldar

I think that SM stupid and overpowered formations keep them tied with eldar even without taking a single grav weapon in their list. With grav spam SM are the most overpowered army in the game, better than eldar. SW and DA are not that competitive, BA while not being that bad are not at the same level of these two chapters.

A skilled player can surely win a tournament with SM even without grav weapons, gladius and skyhammer formations.

Your logic is terrible because Dark Angels and the regular codex are almost completely identical for what's competitive. Your post reeks of butthurt and not understanding the rankings.

Yes but you don't buy a DA army only to have a SM one painted with DA colours. If you go with DA that's because you like ravenwing or/and deathwing. I've never seen a DA list that is just identical to a vanilla marine one.

Butthurt is funny.
He runs Wolves, Dark Eldar and Orks. All of them have t-shirt saves and laugh at Grav.

Actually grav weapons can hurt badly my armies. SW are probably the ones that care less as they've got tons of 3+ invulns and no vehicles.

Orks have BWs and meganobz that are scared by massive grav shooting, DE have talos.

But yes, scatter bikes, D weapons, tau shoooing... are way more terrible for my armies than grav spam but I think the abundance of those ignores armor and toughness shots needs to be nerfed in order to make a better game. Of course other things should be nerfed too but that's completely off topic, I think SM can be quite competitive even without ALL their cheesy tricks.

SM have lots of other effective options, the thread was about reducing centurions grav dependancy and I think there is only one way to do it, which is increasing significantly the cost of grav weapons, or maybe reducing their number of shots.

Alternatively cut any possibility to give grav guns to different units than devastators and centurions. This way centurions would be even more grav dependant but it would be justified.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


That would make five armies in the top two.
Vanilla Marines
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Eldar

I think that SM stupid and overpowered formations keep them tied with eldar even without taking a single grav weapon in their list. With grav spam SM are the most overpowered army in the game, better than eldar. SW and DA are not that competitive, BA while not being that bad are not at the same level of these two chapters.

A skilled player can surely win a tournament with SM even without grav weapons, gladius and skyhammer formations.

Your logic is terrible because Dark Angels and the regular codex are almost completely identical for what's competitive. Your post reeks of butthurt and not understanding the rankings.

Yes but you don't buy a DA army only to have a SM one painted with DA colours. If you go with DA that's because you like ravenwing or/and deathwing. I've never seen a DA list that is just identical to a vanilla marine one.

Ya know, outside the people running Green Marines and doing their version of the Gladius and getting tournament wins that way. You can ignore that if you decide it hurts your argument too much though.

Grav is the only effective heavy weapon in the marine arsenal. All the others are jokes in 7th ed. IG at least have multilasers. 80% of the marine codex is not good because that's the 80% the ba get. So no, they don''t have many other good options. Marines aren't good; marine gimmicks are good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ya know, outside the people running Green Marines and doing their version of the Gladius and getting tournament wins that way. You can ignore that if you decide it hurts your argument too much though.

People can do whatever they want. If you play DA with gladius maybe it's 100 legal (I don't know because I've never seen DA playing this way but I trust you) but you're playing SM not DA. Yes technically they're DA but they can win tournaments even with their typical stuff and if someone brings a SM list painted with DA colours it's ok, but allow me to think that the dude has picked up the wrong army. Independent codexes for different chapters are there to give variety to the game.

Even dark eldar can be top tiers with some wraitknight, scatter bikes and farseer allied but are they really DE? Technically yes, if the DE units are more than 50% of the list but IMHO they're not. A DA, BA, SW list with 90% or more of SM stuff (I mean units and wargear that are in common among different chapters, I'm not considering alliances) is a SM list.

Rankings are also not objective at all since there are a lot of lists full of alliances that are not taken into account (most of the SW victories in tournaments are lists with a lot of other stuff for example) and they are also dependant on what players bring. If there are 100 SM players and 10 DE ones you'll see a lot of SM victories but that' not only because of the superiority of the SM codex but also because there are many more players. Never rely on rankings, rely on your experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Grav is the only effective heavy weapon in the marine arsenal. All the others are jokes in 7th ed. IG at least have multilasers. 80% of the marine codex is not good because that's the 80% the ba get. So no, they don''t have many other good options. Marines aren't good; marine gimmicks are good.

With blasters, haywire blasters, poisoned shots or S5-7-8 of ork shooting, and of course the rest of DE and Orks abilites (without forgetting their disadvantages like AV10 and 5+ or 6+ saves), you can defeat the top tier armies. So SM can win competitive games even without their gimmicks, maybe not a tournament as winning a game is possible and even with good odds, but winning 4-5 in a row is the real issue. Stll not impossible though.

I disagree. Orks and de and gimmickless marines are not truly competitive. I don't think ba mass dread thing will hold up for long. It's too hard to overcome scatterlasers and riptides. Too much math against the have nots.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ya know, outside the people running Green Marines and doing their version of the Gladius and getting tournament wins that way. You can ignore that if you decide it hurts your argument too much though.

People can do whatever they want. If you play DA with gladius maybe it's 100 legal (I don't know because I've never seen DA playing this way but I trust you) but you're playing SM not DA. Yes technically they're DA but they can win tournaments even with their typical stuff and if someone brings a SM list painted with DA colours it's ok, but allow me to think that the dude has picked up the wrong army. Independent codexes for different chapters are there to give variety to the game.

Even dark eldar can be top tiers with some wraitknight, scatter bikes and farseer allied but are they really DE? Technically yes, if the DE units are more than 50% of the list but IMHO they're not. A DA, BA, SW list with 90% or more of SM stuff (I mean units and wargear that are in common among different chapters, I'm not considering alliances) is a SM list.

Rankings are also not objective at all since there are a lot of lists full of alliances that are not taken into account (most of the SW victories in tournaments are lists with a lot of other stuff for example) and they are also dependant on what players bring. If there are 100 SM players and 10 DE ones you'll see a lot of SM victories but that' not only because of the superiority of the SM codex but also because there are many more players. Never rely on rankings, rely on your experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Grav is the only effective heavy weapon in the marine arsenal. All the others are jokes in 7th ed. IG at least have multilasers. 80% of the marine codex is not good because that's the 80% the ba get. So no, they don''t have many other good options. Marines aren't good; marine gimmicks are good.

With blasters, haywire blasters, poisoned shots or S5-7-8 of ork shooting, and of course the rest of DE and Orks abilites (without forgetting their disadvantages like AV10 and 5+ or 6+ saves), you can defeat the top tier armies. So SM can win competitive games even without their gimmicks, maybe not a tournament as winning a game is possible and even with good odds, but winning 4-5 in a row is the real issue. Stll not impossible though.

I don't care if you think they bought the wrong codex. The Lions Blade is basically Gladius except you get BS4 Overwatch instead of Doctrines.

"Never rely on rankings, rely on your experience. "

So data doesn't matter? Your personal experience trumps all? Yeah, we're done here.

The answer to the thread is to make other weapons worth having. They aren't. It takes 30+ lascannon shots to kill Riptide. Why would I ever bring a lascannon?

As I said before you have to take into account the alliances and how many people bring the low tier armies. If there are 10 DE players every 100 SM ones of course they win in very few occasions, regardless of their real efficiency.

When it comes to orks or DE players take a look at the average lists that you see in tournaments, I've barely seen a few times some really competitive lists (considering how competitive they can be with their stuff), most of the time players use a lot of fluffy units. That's another reason why they don't place at all.

Many armies that are considered mid tiers relying on tournaments placements have some allied which are usually the most competitive part of the list. Most of the SW victories are made with lists that also include SM librarians conclave. SW are considered mid tiers but without alliances how would they place in tournaments? That's why data shouldn't be read as the bible.

Rankings are influenced by many factors.

Cut ALL the overpowered stuff in the game (not more than 5-6 things overall) and lascannons would be a nice weapon again. I think game changes should be done simultaneously, nerfing grav is necessary but nerfing other stuff (yes, also riptides) is necessary too.

You're gonna cut every mc in the game? Because the lascannon sucks vs all of them. As does melta. As do krak missiles.

Not the MCs, just giving them the appropriate cost and nerfing some wargear. Only 4-5 MCs are really powerful, there are 20+ of them.

But they all only take a single wound from the strongest weapons in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. Orks and de and gimmickless marines are not truly competitive. I don't think ba mass dread thing will hold up for long. It's too hard to overcome scatterlasers and riptides. Too much math against the have nots.

Tau and Eldar are two of the the armies that die easiest to the Dreads Party.
Scatterlasers die without resistance when you put a Flame Template or two over them on your first turn. A Librarius Dread with Pyromancy and a Heavy Flamer will monster most Eldar Units.
Tau strength against this list comes from EWO, that can also be a weakness to the Tau.
Riptides rely heavily on Marker Lights, two Marker Lights usually get used to ignore Shrouded from each targeted Lucius Pod before the raising of BS even starts. Then the pod itsself has to be destroyed before the Dread can be targeted. It's a lot of shots being applied to non-threatening pods. The Marker Lights applied to the pod don't transfer to the embarked unit so it's use or lose, meaning the Tau player has to balance probability of destruction before they even start shooting with the Marker Drones. This puts the initiative back with the BA player to ignore units that used all available weaponry during EWO and psychic/shoot at units that didn't participate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
But they all only take a single wound from the strongest weapons in the game.

Most of those 20+ can be put down by Boltguns.

"Most of those 20+ can be put down by Boltguns."

No, they really can't, unless you have hundreds of bolters in your list. At the numbers bolters actually show up in, MCs are effectively immune.

"Tau and Eldar are two of the the armies that die easiest to the Dreads Party. "

I'm gonna have to see this. WK stomps all over dreads like tissue paper. Tau do struggle a bit against vehicles sometimes, and I know that the super multimissle thing on the Stormsurge can't hurt dreads.

"But they all only take a single wound from the strongest weapons in the game."

Like any T6 biker character in the game, or any T5 common biker that is wounded by anything but S10. Even grotesques can be T6 with their formation.

Most of the MCs are good or average units, some of them are not better than land raiders. Carnifexes are MCs and mostly used as pure distractions.

Grav weapons are too powerful, mostly because a SM list can have a ton of shots. Just like scatter lasers, S6 are not superscary, but a huge amount of shots of that weapon surely is. Grav centurios are clearly a mistake that needs to be fixed.

All of them are better than land raiders. Your lack of perception as to how incredibly gakky the land raider is makes me question all of your other positions. And given MC is almost always better than any given non-skimmer vehicle. Because base rule book says so. When you bring a land raider, you are spotting your opponent 250 pts. That's the reality of how 7th ed plays. It's hands down the worst unit in C:BA, which is a dumpster fire codex to begin with. It's in contention for worst unit in the game simply because of paying 250 pts to do NOTHING.

A land raider has the same cost as 2 talos which can only fire 8/12 poisoned TL shots and get obliterated by a single round of grav shooting, what about carnifexes? or Necrons spiders? Cronos only serve the purpose of buffing FNP of friendly units, orks big squiggoth?

 Blackie wrote:
A land raider has the same cost as 2 talos which can only fire 8/12 poisoned TL shots and get obliterated by a single round of grav shooting, what about carnifexes? or Necrons spiders? Cronos only serve the purpose of buffing FNP of friendly units, orks big squiggoth?

Those all do something and cost less than 250 and can't immobilize themselves on a shrub. Land raider is the worst. I prove it every time my opponents bring one. A single grav effect completely defeats the whole purpose of the LR. More than likely that can come from a single tac squad of vanilla marines.

Bottom line to me: grav weapons are slightly too good, and other marine heavy weapons are all basically trash. Good lists don't care about lascannons and heavy bolters. The math isn't there.

Martel732 wrote:


Bottom line to me: grav weapons are slightly too good.

I think grav spam is the most broken thing in the entire 40k world, along with D weapons and free vehicles.

Well you would be very, very wrong.

At this point, D weapons are a blessing.

Again, your analysis of the land raider does not inspire confidence. I think you're overreacting to grav.

Martel732 wrote:
"Most of those 20+ can be put down by Boltguns."

No, they really can't, unless you have hundreds of bolters in your list. At the numbers bolters actually show up in, MCs are effectively immune.

Most of those 20+ MCs are Tyranids that cost over 200pts have 6" movement, T6 and a 3+ save to cover three wounds. Fourteen Space Marines with Boltguns will just move the same 6" as the MC and keep pumping shots into it. Even if they only wound on a 6+ it's not immune.

"Tau and Eldar are two of the the armies that die easiest to the Dreads Party. "

I'm gonna have to see this. WK stomps all over dreads like tissue paper. Tau do struggle a bit against vehicles sometimes, and I know that the super multimissle thing on the Stormsurge can't hurt dreads.

So are we talking WK spam or Scatbike spam or a combination of both?

The podded Libby Dreads will cripple the Scatbikes before they even get a shot in response. Pyromancy and Heavy Flamers.
WraithKnights I didn't get to watch against the Party but I was told the BA player won off the back of one of the new Space Marine psychic disciplines - podded in with regular Dreads and killed the Eldar psykers then podded in the Libby Dreads and eliminated the WKs.

"So are we talking WK spam or Scatbike spam or a combination of both? "

Every Eldar player I know knows the "skyhammer drill" now, except it works ever BETTER against regular drop lists. Leave the hard targets on the table, and reserve the bikes. Bring a cheap autarch for reserve manipulation.

The drop pods land, do nothing useful, and then the bikes come in far away from the dreads that now only move 6".

"Even if they only wound on a 6+ it's not immune. "

Those are 14 marines not shooting something they can actually hurt in a 5 turn time scale.

Martel732 wrote:
"So are we talking WK spam or Scatbike spam or a combination of both? "

Every Eldar player I know knows the "skyhammer drill" now, except it works ever BETTER against regular drop lists. Leave the hard targets on the table, and reserve the bikes. Bring a cheap autarch for reserve manipulation.

The drop pods land, do nothing useful, and then the bikes come in far away from the dreads that now only move 6".

Drop them on objective markers and they don't even have to move out of their Lucius Pods.

"Even if they only wound on a 6+ it's not immune. "

Those are 14 marines not shooting something they can actually hurt in a 5 turn time scale.

Those are 14 marines that cost less than the MC in question.