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BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
They kind of managed it with Space Wolves.
The Spazz Mutts are Marines -1 but then they get very unique stuff like Wulfen, Rune Priests and TWC.
They're not Skyhammer but the Ironwolves detachment and Blackmanes were head and shoulders above the Dark Angels and Blood Angels.

I do think that the changes happening in the setting are going to be a HUUUGE help to GW for diversifying this setting. as it will enable GW to give us new stuff thats genuinely new and not "yeah this has been around since the heresy!" and thus allow it to be slow to trickle in, the blood angels are "north" of the Cictatrix Maledictum, and thus being resupplied will be a bitch, meanwhile I suspect the space wolves and the dark angels may be somewhat "out of favor" (the last HH book shows things being pretty damned tense between Gulliman and the Lion, and GS3 makes me suspect Gulliman hasn't gotten any more trusting of the 1st) and thus may not get access to the new toys out of terra, and instead may end up cutting deals with "local forge worlds"

it'd be a good way to shake things out and justify a bit more variation

How's the Lion/1st Legion being out of favour and the Blood Angels being hard to supply going to affect the Wolves?
Having half their numbers and a good portion of their recruitment planet killed will sting the Sons of Russ pretty good but the two Angel chapters and even Guiliman have very little to do with the Space Wolves...

As I said the space wolves may ALSO be out of favor. sure that doesn't mean they're going to have trouble resupplying from their regular sources but it does mean that they may be lower on the priority list for the new MK IX armor and the new Rediculas class assault tank.

Ahh, gotcha.
Mkix power armour is the one with the full collar isn't it?

Martel732 wrote:
Lots of Xeno players on here still completely lose their gak about them. Pretty amusing. I had these things crammed down my throat full of SW grey hunters in 5th over and over.

Exactly. Grey Hunters in the 5th edition codex are the only scary things you could use. Nowadays, the best unit (Sternguard) is MEQ. Are you really having problems with MEQ?

Dreadnoughts are pretty unpleasant, but they are still just 3HP with 7th ed shooting.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.

Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.

Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.

And where voxcasters and instant communication is commonplace. And where you have gear made specifically to deliver your butt reliably into combat. The good stuff heavily outweighs the bad in how well prepared they are to deliver their reserves compared to historical armies, and yet it's literally a crap shoot to see if they join the fight or not, with no opportunity to hold them back if they decide to go... you know, the thing that is the whole point of reserves. To hold them back until there is an opportunity for them to cause heavy damage.

And yet, the real problem here isn't about being "like it is in real life" since that is a dumb comparison to make in the first place. It's that the game mechanic is dumb as hell. Losing the game because you roll a 1-2 three times in a row for your flyer containing your best and most kitted unit is just silly.

First you brought up the real world comparison - not us y talkig about "what general would have" so don't bring up "dumb comparisons" if you don't watn to make them

all the rest - Nope

Voxcasters are only common in elite Imperium troops like the Astartes, Sisters or well equiped Guard, msot guard get one per platoon or even less. They can be jammed, fail to work, be misinterpreted.

As you should know Reserves in 40k encompases a huge variety of units - from Navy air/void squadrons, Drop pods and Terminators in orbiting vessels, outflanking troops, etc etc.

You might have reserves but they don't always act as they shoudl, orders get countermanded, they get attacked themselves, they dont like you, the warp interferes, they think they know betetr, they can see an enemy force flanking, so many many things can happen and that is what the reserve roll represents.

It makes sense to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare.

It would make sense that all that stuff *can* happen, it doesn't even come close to making sense that it *will literally always happen to some extent.* To anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare. It's not like you always go in completely blind to your surroundings, with the most insubordinate officers and the warp is just churning people at random.

 Purifier wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

A general in the field never has 100% control over the forces actually on the field, let alone the forces that are on their way.

Ah, ok. you don't know what reserves are, that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. Reserves are not troops on their way. They're troops held back in reserve, but already present at the battlefield. It might be cavalry sent off to sweep across a flank or one of many other things. They're just standing there, watching the battle and waiting to be sent in. While some might take longer than calculated to move around the enemy army for a flank, others stand ready and are literally just waiting for a flag to send a signal for them to charge full tilt forward.

Yes, and once the cavalry has been sent off to sweep round, they are no longer in control of the general and any number of events can happen to delay their advance. Also, consider that we're talking about a game where reserves can literally be arriving from space or from another dimension.

And where voxcasters and instant communication is commonplace. And where you have gear made specifically to deliver your butt reliably into combat. The good stuff heavily outweighs the bad in how well prepared they are to deliver their reserves compared to historical armies, and yet it's literally a crap shoot to see if they join the fight or not, with no opportunity to hold them back if they decide to go... you know, the thing that is the whole point of reserves. To hold them back until there is an opportunity for them to cause heavy damage.

And yet, the real problem here isn't about being "like it is in real life" since that is a dumb comparison to make in the first place. It's that the game mechanic is dumb as hell. Losing the game because you roll a 1-2 three times in a row for your flyer containing your best and most kitted unit is just silly.

First you brought up the real world comparison - not us y talkig about "what general would have" so don't bring up "dumb comparisons" if you don't watn to make them

all the rest - Nope

Voxcasters are only common in elite Imperium troops like the Astartes, Sisters or well equiped Guard, msot guard get one per platoon or even less. They can be jammed, fail to work, be misinterpreted.

As you should know Reserves in 40k encompases a huge variety of units - from Navy air/void squadrons, Drop pods and Terminators in orbiting vessels, outflanking troops, etc etc.

You might have reserves but they don't always act as they shoudl, orders get countermanded, they get attacked themselves, they dont like you, the warp interferes, they think they know betetr, they can see an enemy force flanking, so many many things can happen and that is what the reserve roll represents.

It makes sense to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare.

It would make sense that all that stuff *can* happen, it doesn't even come close to making sense that it *will literally always happen to some extent.* To anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of warfare. It's not like you always go in completely blind to your surroundings, with the most insubordinate officers and the warp is just churning people at random.

You ever read up on Bomber Escorts in WW2? Tuskegee Airmen is a pretty good example.
The fighter escorts had one role, stick with and protect the bombers to make sure they made it to their destination and back "safely". Some fighter pilots had other ideas and regularly left their charge to trophy hunt, the bombers weren't exactly saints either, some would dump their loads prematurely rather than flying over enemy anti-aircraft weaponry. In an age where communication works pretty well generals struggled to keep order in their own units.
In the case of 40k we're often talking planetary/world war level operations, multiple HQ leaders and apparently some armies lacking decent communication equipment, it's not hugely surprising that some reserves are pretty unreliable.

Still, it would be nice if armies could purchase upgrades like advanced communications that added to reserve rolls. Probably do more for selling Flying transports and gunships than Death from the Skies ever did.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

You ever read up on Bomber Escorts in WW2? Tuskegee Airmen is a pretty good example.
The fighter escorts had one role, stick with and protect the bombers to make sure they made it to their destination and back "safely". Some fighter pilots had other ideas and regularly left their charge to trophy hunt, the bombers weren't exactly saints either, some would dump their loads prematurely rather than flying over enemy anti-aircraft weaponry. In an age where communication works pretty well generals struggled to keep order in their own units.
In the case of 40k we're often talking planetary/world war level operations, multiple HQ leaders and apparently some armies lacking decent communication equipment, it's not hugely surprising that some reserves are pretty unreliable.

Still, it would be nice if armies could purchase upgrades like advanced communications that added to reserve rolls. Probably do more for selling Flying transports and gunships than Death from the Skies ever did.

some pilots did. some.

In 40k you have literally no say on when anything comes in. Everything ignores you completely. If they come in when you want to, it was randomly done so. It doesn't matter one bit what you want, as that has no say at all on your roll. They come or don't completely on their own. If you could say "I want this to come in" and it would come in on a 2+, or you could say "I want this to stay in reserve" and it would stay on a 2+, then all your arguments would make sense. But you can't. You have literally no say at all. No matter what some pilots did in WW2, there was no general that had his entire army consist of what is basically Sgt. Oddball from Kelly's Heroes.


Woof woof. That's my second dog impression.

 Purifier wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

You ever read up on Bomber Escorts in WW2? Tuskegee Airmen is a pretty good example.
The fighter escorts had one role, stick with and protect the bombers to make sure they made it to their destination and back "safely". Some fighter pilots had other ideas and regularly left their charge to trophy hunt, the bombers weren't exactly saints either, some would dump their loads prematurely rather than flying over enemy anti-aircraft weaponry. In an age where communication works pretty well generals struggled to keep order in their own units.
In the case of 40k we're often talking planetary/world war level operations, multiple HQ leaders and apparently some armies lacking decent communication equipment, it's not hugely surprising that some reserves are pretty unreliable.

Still, it would be nice if armies could purchase upgrades like advanced communications that added to reserve rolls. Probably do more for selling Flying transports and gunships than Death from the Skies ever did.

some pilots did. some.

In 40k you have literally no say on when anything comes in. Everything ignores you completely. If they come in when you want to, it was randomly done so. It doesn't matter one bit what you want, as that has no say at all on your roll. They come or don't completely on their own. If you could say "I want this to come in" and it would come in on a 2+, or you could say "I want this to stay in reserve" and it would stay on a 2+, then all your arguments would make sense. But you can't. You have literally no say at all. No matter what some pilots did in WW2, there was no general that had his entire army consist of what is basically Sgt. Oddball from Kelly's Heroes.


Woof woof. That's my second dog impression.

A LOT of fighters did, that was the whole reason the Tuskegee Airmen earned the respect of the bomber crews - they could be relied on to do their job rather than running off to go Glory Hunting.

Depending on your army you do actually have limited say in how units come in. Skriers Gaze is accessible to any army that can use Divination. Apparently Space Wolves are the most reliable army and Harold Deathwolf is their greatest leader, Great Company rolls for troops - on a 6 the unit gets outflank and re-rolls reseves, Harold's Great Company automatically gets Outflank and re-rolls for reserves. There's also units that are consistent, you know at least half your Drop Pods are coming in first turn.
You know everything still in reserves arrives turn four.

I've already pointed out I'd like to be able to puchase equipment and upgrades that kill the randomness, but it is what it is - at least until 8th when it might become something else.

 Purifier wrote:
In 40k you have literally no say on when anything comes in. Everything ignores you completely. If they come in when you want to, it was randomly done so. It doesn't matter one bit what you want, as that has no say at all on your roll. They come or don't completely on their own. If you could say "I want this to come in" and it would come in on a 2+, or you could say "I want this to stay in reserve" and it would stay on a 2+, then all your arguments would make sense. But you can't. You have literally no say at all.

Unless you are the Black Legion, where your commander can choose to come in from Deep Strike turn 1. That's the only example I can think of where you get a choice.

The humble Rhino has been a mainstay of my forces in each edition of 40k. They serve as a delivery mechanism, shields for my troops, fire bases for Blastmasters, and cool looking set pieces in hundreds of games. I like them but am not expecting them to replace drop pods.

The advantage drop pods have is not about controlling when they come in, but controlling where they come in. Drop them on a victory point, shoot up anything contesting it, and you have the closest thing to an easy button that exists in 40k. The fact they can't move afterwards could almost be considered an advantage.

here's another thought... If GW ends up doing away with the scatter die... how will Deep Striking work? will everything just land where it wants? will there be some mitigation?

If AoS summoning is any indication of where deep strike is going. Then you will have quite a bit of control in where it lands on the board. The question is will the reserve roll work like summoning?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.

Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.

Oh yeah I guess 9 drop pods sitting on objectives is unimportant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.

Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.

Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.

I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.

 Orock wrote:
I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.

And that unit may not be possible in the next edition. ICs may not exist in this next edition. Those Relics may not exist in the next edition.

I see we are moving the goalposts. You can also stick a combat squadding sternguard with melta plasma and flamers. Or drop them for line breaker. Nobody had firepower to waste on 5+ tough vehicles when the deadly stuff has to be dealt with first.

 Orock wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.

Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.

Oh yeah I guess 9 drop pods sitting on objectives is unimportant.

Considering there's six objectives, seven if you include linebreaker at least two of them are irrelevant and if you're hellbent on collecting objectives surely some of those remaining Drop Pods aren't exactly out of your way.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.

Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.

Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.

I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.

Funny, I don't even have access to centurions and I remembered them.

 Orock wrote:
I see we are moving the goalposts. You can also stick a combat squadding sternguard with melta plasma and flamers. Or drop them for line breaker. Nobody had firepower to waste on 5+ tough vehicles when the deadly stuff has to be dealt with first.

We are not moving the goal posts, just recognizing that the goal posts in 8th Edition may not be in the same position or pattern that we are currently looking at in 7th Edition. We have been told a lot will be changing in the base mechanics. When that happens, we usually see the units themselves also undergo an incredible amount of change as well.

We have seen some of these changes in AoS, and we don't know how much they will be taking from AoS in to 40K. Those changes may be more extensive than we have been introduced to so far. Characters may be one. Independent Characters no longer exist as a rule in the transition between WHFB and AoS, and are simply Characters who have very high Wounds. It is not outside of the realm of possibility that the same thing applies here, especially with all the problems that come with ICs and balance. As it is, the FAQs have done their darned best to minimize the benefits of being joined to units as it is.

I think that we can safely declare the age of drop pod spam OVER.

1. Only half of the units in a standard battle forged army will be able to take one as a dedicated transport.

2. Null deploys are now dead in matched play.

3. Vehicles now are able to fight in close combat. Meanwhile, drop pods are likely to remain immobile.

I'm calling it now: drop pods are D-E-A-D.

LET THE AGE OF RHINOS COMMENCE!

I also wish to note that drop pod meltaguns have been NERFED.

Good luck getting within melta range when you can't deepstrike within 9 inches of any of my stuff!

 Traditio wrote:
I also wish to note that drop pod meltaguns have been NERFED.

Good luck getting within melta range when you can't deepstrike within 9 inches of any of my stuff!

we dunno what the special rules for droppods ARE though. remember drop pods back in 7th wheren't just a fancy way to add deep strike to your tatical marines. they where more accurate then a normal deep strike

Plus Heavies have been buffed, so say goodbye to Drop Pod Meltaguns and say hello to Drop Pod Multi Meltas! They don't care about your 9" bull.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Plus Heavies have been buffed, so say goodbye to Drop Pod Meltaguns and say hello to Drop Pod Multi Meltas! They don't care about your 9" bull.

What you are saying is true, and I think that this should pose exciting tactical options in 8th edition.

Devastators with multi-meltas in a drop pod should be a viable, though expensive, option. (I'm calculating, in all likelihood, at least 173 points for the squad, not counting the drop pod itself, not counting any additional cost for the sergeant over and beyond the 13 ppm he'll likely cost...I'd be surprised if you can take that for less than 210 points total. So at least that. Compare that to 195 for combi-melta sternguard with drop pod in 7th edition).

I don't think it's going to be either spammable or is it going to be anything like an "obvious" list-building choice, though.

Well over 200 points for a suicide unit that is likely to miss, on average, roughly half of its shots?

And it's not like you're going to be rolling and hoping for that lucky 5 or 6 on the vehicle damage table.

So...viable? Probably.

Likely to be spammed? No.

 Traditio wrote:
I think that we can safely declare the age of drop pod spam OVER.

1. Only half of the units in a standard battle forged army will be able to take one as a dedicated transport.

2. Null deploys are now dead in matched play.

3. Vehicles now are able to fight in close combat. Meanwhile, drop pods are likely to remain immobile.

I'm calling it now: drop pods are D-E-A-D.

LET THE AGE OF RHINOS COMMENCE!

For snowflake Marine armies the Drop Pod is still the best way to dump a Dread in your opponent's face.

Dakka Wolf wrote:For snowflake Marine armies the Drop Pod is still the best way to dump a Dread in your opponent's face.

Obviously.

I wouldn't call that "drop pod spam," though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, to be clear:

I think that we are still going to see some drop pods on the table.

I think that it's going to be viewed as one choice among others, however, an option to be selected for certain niche uses, and not the "obvious" choice.

And I think that the age of spamming drop pods is definitely done.

 Orock wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.

Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.

Oh yeah I guess 9 drop pods sitting on objectives is unimportant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.

Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.

Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.

I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.

Addressing Dakkawolf.
Dude, Skyhammer sucks. It hasn't been competitively relevant since like...before the new tau book. No dedicated drop pod player would actually use the skyhammer because it is a crappy gimmick with no staying power.

Real Pod lists, like the one that took 10th at adepticon this year, use Centurion stars with Tiggy and Libcon(and guillamen in his case.) and then a bunch of melta/combi-melta tactical for objective grabbing and vehicle popping.

Say what you want about the changes and whether or not they make sense or are good but don't pretend like skyhammer wasn't a total flash in the pan.

 Traditio wrote:

Dakka Wolf wrote:For snowflake Marine armies the Drop Pod is still the best way to dump a Dread in your opponent's face.

Obviously.

I wouldn't call that "drop pod spam," though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, to be clear:

I think that we are still going to see some drop pods on the table.

I think that it's going to be viewed as one choice among others, however, an option to be selected for certain niche uses, and not the "obvious" choice.

And I think that the age of spamming drop pods is definitely done.

There will be ways around it, just like Tau can politely step out of melee with minimal penalties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.

Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.

Oh yeah I guess 9 drop pods sitting on objectives is unimportant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Any unit you say?
Last time I checked there were a good number of limitations regarding what can use a drop pod.
Without SkyHammer the best thing that comes out of Drop Pods are Dreads and usually that's a fifty point pod with no weapons.

Ten Marines? Meh, a lot of armies can laugh off twenty Bolter shots.
Ten Devastator Marines? They'll come out firing big guns...or snap-firing big guns...
Nine Marines and a Psyker? Pyromancy could do some harm. The rest are random.
Five Terminators? One Heavy Flamer, Assault Canon or Cyclone Missile Launcher and 4-6 Storm Bolter shots...has merit, not much though.
Five Marines and five Libbies! Now we're cracking! Tau and Necrons are going to love that - Everything else is going to die! Hopefully they had all their stff bunched together, otherwise I believe I've just stranded around 450 points of stuff out in the middle of nowhere.

Oh, and they're easily destroyed.
A lucky shot from a Lascanon is very capable of one-shotting that pod, and killing all the dudes milling about it. Since it's open-topped even an ap3 weapon could fix it.

I guess my grav centurions with hq with terminator armor, shield eternal, and white scars relic to ignore cover got somehow forgotten. Because that unit will wreck whatever I want, and leave the low save models to the bolters.

Addressing Dakkawolf.
Dude, Skyhammer sucks. It hasn't been competitively relevant since like...before the new tau book. No dedicated drop pod player would actually use the skyhammer because it is a crappy gimmick with no staying power.

Real Pod lists, like the one that took 10th at adepticon this year, use Centurion stars with Tiggy and Libcon(and guillamen in his case.) and then a bunch of melta/combi-melta tactical for objective grabbing and vehicle popping.

Say what you want about the changes and whether or not they make sense or are good but don't pretend like skyhammer wasn't a total flash in the pan.

Maybe you should try following the conversation.
My argument was that Drop Pods weren't the most powerful thing in the world and the only time they even seemed to be was during the Skyhammer era which was quickly countered.

 Traditio wrote:
I also wish to note that drop pod meltaguns have been NERFED.

Good luck getting within melta range when you can't deepstrike within 9 inches of any of my stuff!

I can still light your ass up from 12" away with a meltagun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Dakka Wolf wrote:For snowflake Marine armies the Drop Pod is still the best way to dump a Dread in your opponent's face.

Obviously.

I wouldn't call that "drop pod spam," though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, to be clear:

I think that we are still going to see some drop pods on the table.

I think that it's going to be viewed as one choice among others, however, an option to be selected for certain niche uses, and not the "obvious" choice.

And I think that the age of spamming drop pods is definitely done.

It was never the obvious choice for me. And I'm BA.

 Traditio wrote:
I think that we can safely declare the age of drop pod spam OVER.

1. Only half of the units in a standard battle forged army will be able to take one as a dedicated transport.

2. Null deploys are now dead in matched play.

3. Vehicles now are able to fight in close combat. Meanwhile, drop pods are likely to remain immobile.

I'm calling it now: drop pods are D-E-A-D.

LET THE AGE OF RHINOS COMMENCE!

Umm, no, pods are not D-E-A-D. They will still have their uses, you just won't see a whole army arriving via pods. They will still be a great mechanism for threatening an opposing backfield unit by dropping some guns near said unit without them having to walk or drive up in a Rhino. With the new rules for blasts, you might even see a few Deathwind Launchers on pods. As for the whole 9 inch thing, I wonder if what will happen is the pod itself will have to drop at least 9 inches away, while the squad can disembark and walk closer. This might actually make pods really scary, especially if the squad inside can charge immediately.

As has been pointed out above, with the new rules for heavy weapons and movement you might see more Devastator squads arriving by drop pod. Things like Multimeltas and Heavy Bolters could be good candidates for a Pod squad, not to mention grav (although we don't have any idea what Grav is going to be like in 8th yet).

I'm thinking actually that this new edition will be the age of Razorback spam. All those nifty Twin-linked weapons now fire twice as many shots instead of rerolling to hit. All Rhinos have is a crappy Storm Bolter and a larger transport capacity, which will not come into play that often if you run 5-man squads. And from what we've seen so far, I think 5 man squads of Marines are going to be the way to go. Rhinos will still have a place if you want a squad to shoot out of the hatches, though.

ZergSmasher wrote:Umm, no, pods are not D-E-A-D. They will still have their uses, you just won't see a whole army arriving via pods.

Yes, I think that's accurate.

"Drop pods are D-E-A-D" was, admittedly, hyperbolic/an overstatement.

Drop pod spam is definitely dead, though.

They will still be a great mechanism for threatening an opposing backfield unit

I'm not sure about that. The "at least 9 inches away" thing is a significant nerf in that respect.

As for the whole 9 inch thing, I wonder if what will happen is the pod itself will have to drop at least 9 inches away, while the squad can disembark and walk closer. This might actually make pods really scary, especially if the squad inside can charge immediately.

I imagine that the squad will be able to charge immediately, but I also am inclined to think that the rule will state that both the drop pod and the unit, once disembarked, have to be further away than 9 inches.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Maybe you should try following the conversation.
My argument was that Drop Pods weren't the most powerful thing in the world and the only time they even seemed to be was during the Skyhammer era which was quickly countered.

It's poor etiquette to make a post that ridiculously long yunno.

Drop pods space marines aren't the most WTFBBQOMG lists in the game but they are and have been consistent contenders at the top competitive level for years of progressively more broken releases due almost entirely due to the power and flexibility inherent to the drop pods themselves. Being able to show up almost anywhere on the field is unbelievably powerful, being able to do so with very little risk of failure makes it even moreso, being able to guarantee first turn advantage, regardless of whether or not you go first is huge. If we truly wanted this edition to be balanced then this is a mechanic that had to be modified because it puts the 'floor' of power far too high for marines.

 Grimgold wrote:
assuming a -1 rend on bolters.

No, Bolters are AP 0. It is only the new Primaris Bolt rifles that are AP -1.