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fe40k wrote:
Are people really complaining that GW is making an effort to balance their game?

Really?

Welcome to the internet!

 Purifier wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Given that IG infantry is one of the things that's actually made me want to play 40k again, it would be rather depressing if GW nerfed them on day 1.

Given that people are saying they simply curb stomp, it's rather depressing if that's what you're after.

Given that the game hasn't even been released yet, it's rather depressing that you're already accusing me of wanting to "curb stomp" people.

My apologies for having an iota of excitement for a build that's been garbage for 2 editions now. I should have realised that that instantly made me a WAAC scrub.

To be clear, do we actually have any reason to expect a day one FAQ, much less a day one rebalancing, besides the OP knowing a guy who knows a guy?

 vipoid wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Given that IG infantry is one of the things that's actually made me want to play 40k again, it would be rather depressing if GW nerfed them on day 1.

Given that people are saying they simply curb stomp, it's rather depressing if that's what you're after.

Given that the game hasn't even been released yet, it's rather depressing that you're already accusing me of wanting to "curb stomp" people.

My apologies for having an iota of excitement for a build that's been garbage for 2 editions now. I should have realised that that instantly made me a WAAC scrub.

When you assume that any nerf to it will instantly make it completely unusable when people that have tested it are saying it's way too strong, yeah, it sorta does. You've found a thing that's being hailed as unbalancved and your first reaction to it maybe being pulled into line is that it'll be unusable again.

 Purifier wrote:
When you assume that any nerf to it will instantly make it completely unusable when people that have tested it are saying it's way too strong, yeah, it sorta does.

What testers are you even referring to? You mean the playtesters who came up with the costs in the first place after supposedly playtesting extensively? Or are there some players who've played a few games and can already declare IG infantry completely broken?

 Purifier wrote:
You've found a thing that's being hailed as unbalancved and your first reaction to it maybe being pulled into line is that it'll be unusable again.

See, if anything, you're the one who sounds gleeful that IG are having anything in their army that might be worth a damn hammered into the ground on day 1.

We have no idea how the leaked points occurred. It could be that the current cost of a conscript was done right before the books went to print, and between then and launch playtesters found that it was a far more powerful change than expected.

It's difficult to be too hard on GW for this when literally every other game developer does the same thing. If you want to call them incompetent for day one patches then you kinda have to do the same for everyone else out there.

Is it only conscripts that are supposedly getting a point increase?

Seems really weird if they end up the same price as regular guardsmen.

Arachnofiend wrote:
We have no idea how the leaked points occurred. It could be that the current cost of a conscript was done right before the books went to print, and between then and launch playtesters found that it was a far more powerful change than expected.

It's difficult to be too hard on GW for this when literally every other game developer does the same thing. If you want to call them incompetent for day one patches then you kinda have to do the same for everyone else out there.

Conscripts weren't changed, that's the problem.

They're good in 7e. Then, in 8e, their natural counters, blast templates, were removed, and now there's basically no efficient way to get rid of them. Also, the Lasgun has been buffed.

In 7e it's basically a wall of models that you can stick a Commissar into to remedy it's crap leadership, that puts down a terrifying amount of firepower. They're mostly used for taking up lots of space. But they lose a lot of models to things like Manticores and Flamers, and are easily killed by every gun in the game.

In 8e, templates are gone, they get their armorsave, weapons are weaker, and they can now damage everything.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
We have no idea how the leaked points occurred. It could be that the current cost of a conscript was done right before the books went to print, and between then and launch playtesters found that it was a far more powerful change than expected.

It's difficult to be too hard on GW for this when literally every other game developer does the same thing. If you want to call them incompetent for day one patches then you kinda have to do the same for everyone else out there.

Conscripts weren't changed, that's the problem.

They're good in 7e. Then, in 8e, their natural counters, blast templates, were removed, and now there's basically no efficient way to get rid of them.

Amusingly blast templates wouldn't do much regardless, it's the power of the Commissar that keeps them powerful.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
We have no idea how the leaked points occurred. It could be that the current cost of a conscript was done right before the books went to print, and between then and launch playtesters found that it was a far more powerful change than expected.

It's difficult to be too hard on GW for this when literally every other game developer does the same thing. If you want to call them incompetent for day one patches then you kinda have to do the same for everyone else out there.

Conscripts weren't changed, that's the problem.

They're good in 7e. Then, in 8e, their natural counters, blast templates, were removed, and now there's basically no efficient way to get rid of them.

Amusingly blast templates wouldn't do much regardless, it's the power of the Commissar that keeps them powerful.

They're like that now. A Commissar Lord is absolutely necessary to keep them in position now, otherwise they'd break and flee or get overrun in melee at the drop of a hat.

It's flamers and blasts that really chew through them. Also, super high rate of fire guns.

Also right now, you have to take a platoon to get them, which is a minimum 135 point additional "tax" on them. If you're running infantry heavy it's not a big deal, since you had those platoons already, but if you're tacking them on as cover for an artillery or tank company list then it's an annoying tax.


One thing worth mention is that, because of the new mechanics of vehicles and the relative characteristics of antitank guns, volume of fire is basically king for killing anything, and conscripts have that in copious quantity,

Jpr wrote:
Supposedly IG are going to be nerfed in the faq on Saturday with restrictions on command squads and conscripts having a point raise. If this is true what do we think ? Is it a good thing GW knee jerking a change or should they have left it for a while? There could be many other point changes.

Where exactly did this rumour come from? I would not be surprised if it happened, but I would like some kind of source before I declare that the IG sky is falling.

Hm, I wonder what the command squad restrictions would be? I hope it would be something simple like "you can only take [# if company commander/tempestor prime] of company/tempestus command squads." That way they cannot simply be spammed left, right, center, and within plasma gun rapidfire range so much - doable, and you'd be able to pull it off, but with a 40 point tempestor added for each one it would make it less of an auto include.

Conscripts...I dunno, a point increase feels kind of knee jerky to me, and puts them on the same price level as regular guardsmen. I'd rather just less spammability out of them than a price hike, or give them a rule that limits orders effectiveness on them. Either dial things back to requiring 2 infantry squads for each conscript blob, or possibly give them a rule that makes it so orders on them specifically don't auto pass? I dunno, it seems to me the unit itself isn't that strong, but its synergies just blow it through the roof as a nearby commissar and a company commander can turn them into a wall of las fire that won't break.

kurhanik wrote:
I dunno, it seems to me the unit itself isn't that strong, but its synergies just blow it through the roof as a nearby commissar and a company commander can turn them into a wall of las fire that won't break.

It's odd to me that an army behaving like it's described in the fluff is considered an issue that needs fixing.

Anyway, conscripts being the same price as Guardsmen wouldn't bother me. With Combined Squad gone, Conscripts are the only Guard unit that can form huge blob squads. That's their trade-off for having a poor statline and options, and since it's a powerful combo in this edition and doesn't require the Platoon tax any more, I think it's appropriate if they're costed about the same.

Limiting command squads to your number of commanders is also just fine. Just let us take Platoon Commanders as HQ, please!

I think a points hike for Conscripts is very unlikely, for a simple mathematical reason: infantry are already 4 points per model, Conscripts are 3, they have no room to go up. Conscripts always have to be at least one point cheaper than infantry, because it's the only selling point they have.

So they're not likely to see a point hike simply because they have nowhere to go.

 ross-128 wrote:
I think a points hike for Conscripts is very unlikely, for a simple mathematical reason: infantry are already 4 points per model, Conscripts are 3, they have no room to go up. Conscripts always have to be at least one point cheaper than infantry, because it's the only selling point they have.

So they're not likely to see a point hike simply because they have nowhere to go.

Increase infantry to 6 ppm and conscripts to 5 ppm. Obviously, veterans get bumped up to 7 ppm.

Problem fixed, and not only problem fixed, but CSM players can stop complaining.

Amazing this has gone of for five pages with nothing other than heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy

 Traditio wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I think a points hike for Conscripts is very unlikely, for a simple mathematical reason: infantry are already 4 points per model, Conscripts are 3, they have no room to go up. Conscripts always have to be at least one point cheaper than infantry, because it's the only selling point they have.

So they're not likely to see a point hike simply because they have nowhere to go.

Increase infantry to 6 ppm and conscripts to 5 ppm.

Problem fixed, and not only problem fixed, but CSM players can stop complaining.

Veterans are 6ppm, so Infantry can't move into that slot. It's already occupied by a unit that's better than them. It also wouldn't make sense from an external balance perspective, since Boyz pay 6 points for T4, S4, WS3+ and Mob Rule, so Infantry always have to be cheaper than Boyz. Infantry will also be difficult to budge because they'd have to consider their relation to Gaunts, which are 4pts/model. GW just doesn't have a lot of wiggle room in that bracket.

An alternative way to deal with the problem is increase conscripts to 4 ppm, decrease cultists to 4 ppm and increase infantry to 5 ppm.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

kurhanik wrote:
I dunno, it seems to me the unit itself isn't that strong, but its synergies just blow it through the roof as a nearby commissar and a company commander can turn them into a wall of las fire that won't break.

It's odd to me that an army behaving like it's described in the fluff is considered an issue that needs fixing.

Anyway, conscripts being the same price as Guardsmen wouldn't bother me. With Combined Squad gone, Conscripts are the only Guard unit that can form huge blob squads. That's their trade-off for having a poor statline and options, and since it's a powerful combo in this edition and doesn't require the Platoon tax any more, I think it's appropriate if they're costed about the same.

Limiting command squads to your number of commanders is also just fine. Just let us take Platoon Commanders as HQ, please!

I guess I can see where you are coming from there, its just a mental hurdle to me seeing conscripts and basic infantry the same price. Then again, as you said, no more platoon tax, so even with a price increase, they are effectively cheaper than before, since previously you'd need to spend 130 points before taking a single conscript.

And an army behaving like fluff is only an issue if it is too strong - a point increase or a mild nerfing of its rules would fix that. So long as it is brought back to whatever the norm is deemed to be, instead of down to the "why would you take this ever" tier of units.

Even with the current rumors saying my army is the one hit with the nerf bat, I am happy that it means GW is at least trying to balance things out. Hopefully that means low performers will also get a buff too.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I think a points hike for Conscripts is very unlikely, for a simple mathematical reason: infantry are already 4 points per model, Conscripts are 3, they have no room to go up. Conscripts always have to be at least one point cheaper than infantry, because it's the only selling point they have.

So they're not likely to see a point hike simply because they have nowhere to go.

Increase infantry to 6 ppm and conscripts to 5 ppm.

Problem fixed, and not only problem fixed, but CSM players can stop complaining.

Veterans are 6ppm, so Infantry can't move into that slot. It's already occupied by a unit that's better than them. It also wouldn't make sense from an external balance perspective, since Boyz pay 6 points for T4, S4, WS3+ and Mob Rule, so Infantry always have to be cheaper than Boyz. Infantry will also be difficult to budge because they'd have to consider their relation to Gaunts, which are 4pts/model. GW just doesn't have a lot of wiggle room in that bracket.

Increase gaunts to 5 ppm. Problem fixed.

The problem is everything around guardsmen got nerfed heavily.

They should have kept the keywords for each blast, and had it scale appropriately based on the number of models in the unit that they're targeting.

A unit of 20 models should be hit harder by flamers, and blasts, than a unit of 10 models.

I won't even talk about TAC marines / CSM marines, which are a total and complete joke, moreso than in 7th.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
We have no idea how the leaked points occurred. It could be that the current cost of a conscript was done right before the books went to print, and between then and launch playtesters found that it was a far more powerful change than expected.

It's difficult to be too hard on GW for this when literally every other game developer does the same thing. If you want to call them incompetent for day one patches then you kinda have to do the same for everyone else out there.

Conscripts weren't changed, that's the problem.

They're good in 7e. Then, in 8e, their natural counters, blast templates, were removed, and now there's basically no efficient way to get rid of them. Also, the Lasgun has been buffed.

In 7e it's basically a wall of models that you can stick a Commissar into to remedy it's crap leadership, that puts down a terrifying amount of firepower. They're mostly used for taking up lots of space. But they lose a lot of models to things like Manticores and Flamers, and are easily killed by every gun in the game.

In 8e, templates are gone, they get their armorsave, weapons are weaker, and they can now damage everything.

I think you're dead wrong. In 7th a conscript blob would hit on a 4+ against 80% of all targets in melee, including total fearless, reroll to hit and reroll saves with a priest. Now they're stuck with a 5+ to hit, no matter what, with no rerolls, no bonus attacks for charging, no rerolls for saves nor hit. Furthermore, I've seen you post in several threads with conscriptis having several hundred shots that will lay waste to most things.... would you be kind to like... stop doing that? You cannot seriously suggest that getting all 50 conscripts in rapidfire range, with zero casualties and in still in range for buffing is something that's honestly going to occur on a regular basis.

This is a knee jerk reaction from butt hurt people who haven't even played the game, conscripts going above 3 PPM is simply unacceptable as they are simply not worth any more than that. They require constant support from several characters, because on their own they cant do anything that can be considered a real threat.

Marmatag wrote:I won't even talk about TAC marines / CSM marines, which are a total and complete joke, moreso than in 7th.

Tac marines and CSM marines are fine.

Yes, they lost legion and chapter tactics. On the other hand, most of the things that were roflstomping Tac and CSM marines got nerfed into the ground.

Tac marines are arguably better now in 8th edition that they can disembark 9 inches from rhinos, double tap bolters, and then charge.

Or you can camp tac marines on terrain and enjoy 2+ armor saves.

Also, universal split-fire is a massive buff for tac marines and CSM.

 totalfailure wrote:
Amazing this has gone of for five pages with nothing other than heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy

Also this

 Zewrath wrote:

I think you're dead wrong. In 7th a conscript blob would hit on a 4+ against 80% of all targets in melee, including total fearless, reroll to hit and reroll saves with a priest. Now they're stuck with a 5+ to hit, no matter what, with no rerolls, no bonus attacks for charging, no rerolls for saves nor hit.

...

This is a knee jerk reaction from butt hurt people who haven't even played the game, conscripts going above 3 PPM is simply unacceptable as they are simply not worth any more than that. They require constant support from several characters, because on their own they cant do anything that can be considered a real threat.

They've lost those bonuses, but are now at least capable of hurting anything and get a save vs. most basic weapons.

That's small beer, though. The main fact is that conscripts aren't meant to be an offensive threat; they're a very cheap defensive block. In 7th they weren't seen because combined Infantry squads gave you the same defensive benefit with more offensive power, you had to take a platoon to get the conscripts anyway, and because high-output weapons wrecked them. Those disadvantages are mitigated or gone, and several mechanics have come around to make hordes more dangerous.

I don't have a dog in this race because I don't plan to use points anyway. But if Conscripts go up a point, it'll be reflecting their now-unique role as a thick defensive blocking unit compared to the Infantry Squad's flexibility.

If anything is done to address Conscripts, the most reasonable solution would be to make the former large blast weapons scale against blobs. Partially because a lot of the mathhammer snags that apply to Conscripts also apply to other horde armies.

Plus, homogenizing small and large blasts was a bad idea in the first place. While small blasts slightly gained (since they rarely got three hits before and certainly never even had the potential to get six), large blasts did suffer pretty badly from that change. Changing large blasts to gain +1 shots for every 5 models in the unit (the Manticore could get +d3 to represent its previously random blast count, and the RFBC would get +2 because it's two blasts) would help restore their anti-horde role.

Conscripts are not unique in their strength, they're only strong because hordes with morale mitigation are strong in general in 8th. Because large blasts are no longer around to keep them in check.

 ross-128 wrote:
If anything is done to address Conscripts, the most reasonable solution would be to make the former large blast weapons scale against blobs. Partially because a lot of the mathhammer snags that apply to Conscripts also apply to other horde armies.

Plus, homogenizing small and large blasts was a bad idea in the first place. While small blasts slightly gained (since they rarely got three hits before and certainly never even had the potential to get six), large blasts did suffer pretty badly from that change. Changing large blasts to gain +1 shots for every 5 models in the unit (the Manticore could get +d3 to represent its previously random blast count, and the RFBC would get +2 because it's two blasts) would help restore their anti-horde role.

Conscripts are not unique in their strength, they're only strong because hordes with morale mitigation are strong in general in 8th. Because large blasts are no longer around to keep them in check.

This is more or less accurate. Conscripts alone are not OP. They are undercosted (I think that they're about equivalent to cultists and should cost the same as cultists), but they're not in and of themselves OP outside of their slight undercostedness.

They're OP because of things like commissars. Yes, conscripts need a points increase. But that's not enough. They need to change the rules for the commissar, or else, massively increase the price of commissars.

Change it from "You may BLAM a guy and autopass" to "You may BLAM a guy and treat the die roll as though it were a 1."

They're definitely not the same as cultists. Cultists have better WS, better BS, and can take flamethrowers in huge blobs. Those three things very much outweigh the downside of having 6+ armor.

 ross-128 wrote:
They're definitely not the same as cultists. Cultists have better WS, better BS, and can take flamethrowers in huge blobs. Those three things very much outweigh the downside of having 6+ armor.

Cultists also have 6+ armor saves and can't benefit from IG orders or IG character buffs, and will usually have a lower "effective" LD than conscripts.

The conscripts pay for the character buffs when they buy the character that is buffing them.

That's why "Mob Rule" has to be factored into the cost of Boyz, but knocking 'eads isn't. Mob Rule is an inherent ability the Boyz have, so it's part of their cost. Knocking 'eads is something the Warboss does, so it's part of the Warboss' cost, not the Boyz.

The cost of orders and blamming is paid by the Officers and Commissars, because those are the models you buy to get them.