Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

malcontent999 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The warp charge system made it pretty difficult to get any use out of just 1 psyker. I wouldn't go with that system again.

I like the streamlined fast psychic phase.

How do warp charges make 1 psykers difficult to use? I imagine if we stuck with charges but prevented sharing, everyone would get enough per psyker to cast a power or 2 per player turn.

I'm displeased with all the streamlining. It just becomes samey and boring for me.

Wasn't the issue because you only had one psyker worth of charges, vs an opponent who was likely to have more than that, and so you were much more likely to have your power denied? Have to say it's been a long time since I played that edition, but I vaguely remember if you're only going to bring one psyker you might as well bring none and save the points.

malcontent999 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The warp charge system made it pretty difficult to get any use out of just 1 psyker. I wouldn't go with that system again.

I like the streamlined fast psychic phase.

How do warp charges make 1 psykers difficult to use? I imagine if we stuck with charges but prevented sharing, everyone would get enough per psyker to cast a power or 2 per player turn.

I'm displeased with all the streamlining. It just becomes samey and boring for me.

Remove the D6 bonus WC, make it 1+ML WC per Psyker, then add the option to Push. Pushing gives a "free die" for any power (though you must spend at least one WC as normal), but if that die matches any of the other dice used, you suffer Perils.

 Marmatag wrote:

malcontent999 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The warp charge system made it pretty difficult to get any use out of just 1 psyker. I wouldn't go with that system again.

I like the streamlined fast psychic phase.

How do warp charges make 1 psykers difficult to use? I imagine if we stuck with charges but prevented sharing, everyone would get enough per psyker to cast a power or 2 per player turn.

I'm displeased with all the streamlining. It just becomes samey and boring for me.

Okay, if you have 1 librarian in your army, and I have an army full of Daemons, you'll get what, 2 warp charges, and i'll have like 30. When you try to cast your 1 power, i'll throw 30 dice at you and deny offhand.

We're talking rebalance, so why would daemons get 30? Plus, if charges are restricted per psykers, no one's throwing all their charges at once anyway.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't mind it. It's basically a free wound on an enemy on a 4+.

4+?

Niiru wrote:

malcontent999 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The warp charge system made it pretty difficult to get any use out of just 1 psyker. I wouldn't go with that system again.

I like the streamlined fast psychic phase.

How do warp charges make 1 psykers difficult to use? I imagine if we stuck with charges but prevented sharing, everyone would get enough per psyker to cast a power or 2 per player turn.

I'm displeased with all the streamlining. It just becomes samey and boring for me.

Wasn't the issue because you only had one psyker worth of charges, vs an opponent who was likely to have more than that, and so you were much more likely to have your power denied? Have to say it's been a long time since I played that edition, but I vaguely remember if you're only going to bring one psyker you might as well bring none and save the points.

True, but that was an issue because of pooling charges. If charges couldn't be pooled it wouldn't be as easy to swamp an opponent with dice.

 nintura wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't mind it. It's basically a free wound on an enemy on a 4+.

4+?

Grey Knight babysmite is warpcharge 5+, Brotherhood of Psykers give them +1. 4+ mortal wound.

There were other issues of course. One of the funniest side effects of 7th was that since the Psychic Phase came before the mlvement phase, and Running/Turbo was in the shooting phase, Biker Psykers were hilariously mobile, almost akin to Psychic Crisis Suits. Move 12, Shriek, Turbo 12. On one hand, this was cool because it allowed for other armies to do what used to exclusively be a Tau or Eldar trick. On the other hand, it led to stuff like fly-by Summoning and Gaze of Magnus.

Such tricks should be allowed, provided the game has proper interrupt mechanisms.

Grey Knight babysmite is warpcharge 5+, Brotherhood of Psykers give them +1. 4+ mortal wound.

Well hell, that must be nice.

The previous system was better because it scaled. They just should have limited the number of dice you could throw at a single power. GWs main problem is they rarely try to refine a good mechanic. They see that it's not great as is, so instead of trying to fix it they just go with a different mechanic entirely.

They should have kept the previous warp charge system, but added a stipulation that you cannot throw more than 6 dice to cast a power.

No, the previous system was NOT better. Grey Knights were awful in the psychic phase and got wrecked by Daemons, the army they were designed to fight. You think we peril a lot in this edition? Perils of the warp was a super common thing for us in 7th.

Just because there is a balance issue with Grey Knights being underpowered doesn't mean the whole system has to be redesigned. 7th edition psychic phase was so much worse than what we have now. Did anyone else here play Grey Knights in 7th? Good luck casting 6 powers in a turn. We can reliably do this in 8th edition.

The challenge here is that our psychic units pay for powers they cannot use - a fair complaint - and that smite is baked into the cost of our models, and our smite is generally not worth the risk. You have a squad of incinerators in flamer range of their target. Do you risk the perils to try and cause 1 mortal wound? You could lose 3 flamers, or 3d6 hits, to get 1 mortal wound. Worth it?

Wow, the complaining of the spoiled. GK might be underpowered, but it's not because of your psychic phase. There are armies who are far off worse than you and you're asking for buffs.

You want no psychic focus? Fine, but now you perils on any doubles, before rerolls are applied, perils instantly kill the casting unit and still does the mortal wound explosion.

There, psychic is fair again now.

OR, less satirically, make the unique powers terrible. Immune to battle shock, automatically runs at least 4 inches, +1 to hit against units with supersonic in the shooting phase, +1 to cast for another nearby unit, -1 bravery to an enemy within 18", Heal 1 wound on a friendly model but perils on any doubles. There, there's your no psychic focus power tree.

You don't get to spam unlimited mortal wound+gain invul saves+Strength forever. sorry.

 Marmatag wrote:
No, the previous system was NOT better. Grey Knights were awful in the psychic phase and got wrecked by Daemons, the army they were designed to fight. You think we peril a lot in this edition? Perils of the warp was a super common thing for us in 7th.

Just because there is a balance issue with Grey Knights being underpowered doesn't mean the whole system has to be redesigned. 7th edition psychic phase was so much worse than what we have now. Did anyone else here play Grey Knights in 7th? Good luck casting 6 powers in a turn. We can reliably do this in 8th edition.

The challenge here is that our psychic units pay for powers they cannot use - a fair complaint - and that smite is baked into the cost of our models, and our smite is generally not worth the risk. You have a squad of incinerators in flamer range of their target. Do you risk the perils to try and cause 1 mortal wound? You could lose 3 flamers, or 3d6 hits, to get 1 mortal wound. Worth it?

This is really the main problem with psychic armies right now, not the inability to cast the same spell more than once. I rarely use the smite for my aspiring sorcerer for this reason. Why risk a perils for what is probably going to be 1 mortal wound? And with Thousand Sons, if the sorcerer dies, it does more moral wounds, so that is potentially 6 mortal wounds on a perils. Unless 1 wound is going to finish a unit, or lower it on the damage chart, I never use the baby smite. However, I have gotten four full sorcerers to smite one unit and boy is it deadly. I think I did 8 mortal wounds to a vehicle. Basically killed it. So I don't think giving unit psychics full smite would be balanced.

Personally I think all psychic units (aka non-HQ or lords of war) should use the old horror rule. Smite, but on 1D6 (not reduced to1). And even if you gave Grey Knights and Thousand Sons +1, smite would still fail 50% of the time, and you would never get the D6 mortal wounds. It would also be way easier to deny. It would allow for a unit of psychics to be useful, but not over the top. Also it would make it so you could use it, as there would not be perils.

 Marmatag wrote:
No, the previous system was NOT better. Grey Knights were awful in the psychic phase and got wrecked by Daemons, the army they were designed to fight. You think we peril a lot in this edition? Perils of the warp was a super common thing for us in 7th.

The real issues with Grey Knights are holdovers from 5th, with a general "early 7e nerfbat" (ironically at a time when people said that GW was finally bringing back balance to 40k). Razorbacks and other vehicles losing Psychic Pilot was to be expected, but removing Psybolt Ammo hurt. As powerful as the Psyfleman was in 5th, it became relatively weaker in 6th because of flyers/hullpoints, and 7th only gradually nerfed flyers in turn. Thus, GK were left as an army without truly functional long-ranged anti-tank/anti-monster capabilities.

Add the general internal imbalancing that they went through, and you had an army that functionally became Terminators&Dreadknights, Final Destination. Purifiers were a decent all-arounder unit since they were ML 2 with guaranteed Cleansing Flame, so they could be one part fire support, one part crowd control, one part Psy battery, but their lack of DS really hurt, and they didn't synergize well with the rest of the GK army. I always imagined they would have comedic potential with a Librarian Dread ally build, but ah well.

Strike Squad: 105 points. 5 models
- 5 different melee weapons to choose from
- 3 different ranged weapons to choose from
- 2 powers, one of which you get to choose
- 2 ranged shots up to 24", 4 at 12" or less
- 3+ save
- bigger codex and far more access via <Imperial>
- 6" movement

Rubric Squad: 125 points. 5 models
- 0 melee weapons
- 2 ranged weapons (3 if you include the icon)
- 1 power, smite-lite
- 5" movement
- 3+, 5++, All is dust
- -2 AP bolter. 1 shot at 24 and 2 at 12"

Your shooting is arguably better, your ability to move are better, your psychic is better, your melee is better, your options in general are better. Your points are cheaper.

Our defense is better. Our models look cooler.

Martel732 wrote:
"Our cheapest troop choice is 21 points per model."

Is that for T4, W1, 3+ ?

Yep - would you believe it the best unit in our codex as well? Except for the infamous grey knight grand master in a dread-knight (yeah - this thing is a beast).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:
Strike Squad: 105 points. 5 models
- 5 different melee weapons to choose from
- 3 different ranged weapons to choose from
- 2 powers, one of which you get to choose
- 2 ranged shots up to 24", 4 at 12" or less
- 3+ save
- bigger codex and far more access via <Imperial>
- 6" movement

Rubric Squad: 125 points. 5 models
- 0 melee weapons
- 2 ranged weapons (3 if you include the icon)
- 1 power, smite-lite
- 5" movement
- 3+, 5++, All is dust
- -2 AP bolter. 1 shot at 24 and 2 at 12"

Your shooting is arguably better, your ability to move are better, your psychic is better, your melee is better, your options in general are better. Your points are cheaper.

Our defense is better. Our models look cooler.

Don't they have some ability to improve their armor save more when in cover or something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:
Strike Squad: 105 points. 5 models
- 5 different melee weapons to choose from
- 3 different ranged weapons to choose from
- 2 powers, one of which you get to choose
- 2 ranged shots up to 24", 4 at 12" or less
- 3+ save
- bigger codex and far more access via <Imperial>
- 6" movement

Rubric Squad: 125 points. 5 models
- 0 melee weapons
- 2 ranged weapons (3 if you include the icon)
- 1 power, smite-lite
- 5" movement
- 3+, 5++, All is dust
- -2 AP bolter. 1 shot at 24 and 2 at 12"

Your shooting is arguably better, your ability to move are better, your psychic is better, your melee is better, your options in general are better. Your points are cheaper.

Our defense is better. Our models look cooler.

You are comparing the star of the GK codex to a very average unit for Thousand sons. The guy magnus...hes pretty good isnt he? Gk players aren't complaining about strike squads. Rather the fact that our smite is terrible - most people would be glad to see the strike squad marine nerfed if we could actually use our powers instead of launching 12 inch baby smites.

To calrify the rubric comparison. They also get a +1 to their save if the weapon only causes 1 damage, meaning bolt guns they get a 2 plus and even bolt rilfes with a -1 still get a 3+

On top of that rubrics have a lot more synergy and MUCH better shooting.

I think I'd be ok with GKs getting full powered smite, but only if a squad size has a certain amount of models, say, more than 5. Maybe large units like naughs and knights getting a flat 2.

But hell, as it is, on Wednesday I lost a battlewagon from full health to nothing but GK smite and storm bolters. I kind of feel like GK smite spam is pretty decent as-is.

But that may be partly due to the fact that for some damnfool reason, battlewagons are exactly as durable v. storm bolters as warbikers.

And also the fact that for a different damnfool reason, storm bolters essentially became twin-linked now for free, while twin linked shootas went from 2 to 4. Balance!

I still the fairest solution is to make it so on a score of 10+ the smite goes from 1 damage to D3 damage. And against Daemons, it's a flat 3 damage regardless. We should also get the 18" range that everyone else does.

This seems much better to me.

Psychic Focus is not the problem. Our core discipline is strong.

 Xenomancers wrote:

You are comparing the star of the GK codex to a very average unit for Thousand sons. The guy magnus...hes pretty good isnt he? Gk players aren't complaining about strike squads. Rather the fact that our smite is terrible - most people would be glad to see the strike squad marine nerfed if we could actually use our powers instead of launching 12 inch baby smites.

No, they don't improve their save any more in cover than anyone else does. You're thinking of All is Dust. IF they are hit by a weapon that does 1 damage in it's profile, they get a +1 save. They are amazing against small arms fire, yes.

And you want to compare a super heavy vs a troops? I was comparing Troops vs troops since they are most alike. 5 models to 5. Both with 1 psyker. ANY of your units are better than our Rubrics. We both have smite lite, yet you still get a second power. You're still cheaper.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To calrify the rubric comparison. They also get a +1 to their save if the weapon only causes 1 damage, meaning bolt guns they get a 2 plus and even bolt rilfes with a -1 still get a 3+

On top of that rubrics have a lot more synergy and MUCH better shooting.

Thanks for clarifying. So they have a 2+ save effectively vs anything that does 1 damage. So if they are in cover - assault cannons and heavy bolters and bolt rifles and auto cannons...they have a 2 plus save. More that justifies the cost difference. That's a pretty big feature to leave out in comparison.

does this also affect their invo save? or just armor save?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To calrify the rubric comparison. They also get a +1 to their save if the weapon only causes 1 damage, meaning bolt guns they get a 2 plus and even bolt rilfes with a -1 still get a 3+

On top of that rubrics have a lot more synergy and MUCH better shooting.

Not necessarily. Yes, we get -2 ap. However you get twice as many shots meaning the potential for twice the amount of kills. You're also more mobile with more options meaning you can possibly stay out of range and shoot things down. Rubrics are extremely slow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To calrify the rubric comparison. They also get a +1 to their save if the weapon only causes 1 damage, meaning bolt guns they get a 2 plus and even bolt rilfes with a -1 still get a 3+

On top of that rubrics have a lot more synergy and MUCH better shooting.

Thanks for clarifying. So they have a 2+ save effectively vs anything that does 1 damage. So if they are in cover - assault cannons and heavy bolters and bolt rifles and auto cannons...they have a 2 plus save. More that justifies the cost difference. That's a pretty big feature to leave out in comparison.

You realize you can get in cover too right? And again, read what I said. I did include it. I believe I said we are better defensively as well? However your killing power and utility is leagues ahead.

To answer your invuln question, yes it does affect it. But how many weapons will give you a -4 and only do 1 damage?

 nintura wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To calrify the rubric comparison. They also get a +1 to their save if the weapon only causes 1 damage, meaning bolt guns they get a 2 plus and even bolt rilfes with a -1 still get a 3+

On top of that rubrics have a lot more synergy and MUCH better shooting.

Not necessarily. Yes, we get -2 ap. However you get twice as many shots meaning the potential for twice the amount of kills. You're also more mobile with more options meaning you can possibly stay out of range and shoot things down. Rubrics are extremely slow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To calrify the rubric comparison. They also get a +1 to their save if the weapon only causes 1 damage, meaning bolt guns they get a 2 plus and even bolt rilfes with a -1 still get a 3+

On top of that rubrics have a lot more synergy and MUCH better shooting.

Thanks for clarifying. So they have a 2+ save effectively vs anything that does 1 damage. So if they are in cover - assault cannons and heavy bolters and bolt rifles and auto cannons...they have a 2 plus save. More that justifies the cost difference. That's a pretty big feature to leave out in comparison.

You realize you can get in cover too right? And again, read what I said. I did include it.

They have a 1+ save in cover is all I'm saying. Didn't see where you included this talent. Seems fair between the two too me to be honest. Except I feel in general that the ability to deep-strike for free is somewhat problematic. Balanced out somewhat that greyknight have no access to big guns.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To calrify the rubric comparison. They also get a +1 to their save if the weapon only causes 1 damage, meaning bolt guns they get a 2 plus and even bolt rilfes with a -1 still get a 3+

On top of that rubrics have a lot more synergy and MUCH better shooting.

Not necessarily. Yes, we get -2 ap. However you get twice as many shots meaning the potential for twice the amount of kills. You're also more mobile with more options meaning you can possibly stay out of range and shoot things down. Rubrics are extremely slow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To calrify the rubric comparison. They also get a +1 to their save if the weapon only causes 1 damage, meaning bolt guns they get a 2 plus and even bolt rilfes with a -1 still get a 3+

On top of that rubrics have a lot more synergy and MUCH better shooting.

Thanks for clarifying. So they have a 2+ save effectively vs anything that does 1 damage. So if they are in cover - assault cannons and heavy bolters and bolt rifles and auto cannons...they have a 2 plus save. More that justifies the cost difference. That's a pretty big feature to leave out in comparison.

You realize you can get in cover too right? And again, read what I said. I did include it.

They have a 1+ save in cover is all I'm saying. Didn't see where you included this talent. Seems fair between the two too me to be honest. Except I feel in general that the ability to deep-strike for free is somewhat problematic. Balanced out somewhat that greyknight have no access to big guns.

That's not a talent? Everyone gets a +1 save in cover.... and our big guns is a heavy 4 -3 1 damage. For 35 or 40 points requiring a squad of 10 (272 point squad now)

Thousand Sons as an army have much better access to shooting. The strike squad is probably the most efficient Grey Knights shooting infantry in the entire codex.

Let that sink in... You're comparing Rubrics to one of our most efficient shooting options in the entire codex, and even then, they're basically on PAR with Rubric shooting *assuming no heavy weapons,* because GK "heavy weapons" are really sub par. And the second we take them, we lose out on precious melee attacks.

There's a reason most people run strike squads as Falchions + Storm Bolters with no specials.

When you start firing the strength 8+ weaponry at range with your models, take a pause and remember that outside of our limited vehicle access, we have *none of this.*

 Marmatag wrote:
I still the fairest solution is to make it so on a score of 10+ the smite goes from 1 damage to D3 damage. And against Daemons, it's a flat 3 damage regardless. We should also get the 18" range that everyone else does.

This seems much better to me.

I'd be on board with that. It does seem unfair that GK's still risk perils on double 6s, but get no additional benefit to smite for rolling high.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still the fairest solution is to make it so on a score of 10+ the smite goes from 1 damage to D3 damage. And against Daemons, it's a flat 3 damage regardless. We should also get the 18" range that everyone else does.

This seems much better to me.

I'd be on board with that. It does seem unfair that GK's still risk perils on double 6s, but get no additional benefit to smite for rolling high.

Thanks. I don't think i'm asking for the world here. I'm fine with double 6s being a perils. Just give me a *reason* to risk casting smite.

 Marmatag wrote:
Thousand Sons as an army have much better access to shooting. The strike squad is probably the most efficient Grey Knights shooting infantry in the entire codex.

Let that sink in... You're comparing Rubrics to one of our most efficient shooting options in the entire codex, and even then, they're basically on PAR with Rubric shooting *assuming no heavy weapons,* because GK "heavy weapons" are really sub par. And the second we take them, we lose out on precious melee attacks.

There's a reason most people run strike squads as Falchions + Storm Bolters with no specials.

When you start firing the strength 8+ weaponry at range with your models, take a pause and remember that outside of our limited vehicle access, we have *none of this.*

You're not a shooting army.. you have storm bolters. Your strength lies in melee where you get -3 ap and d3 damage or whatever weapon you decide at the time. Let that sink in. You're using your army wrong. And uh, what S8 weaponry is that? Because we only have 1, and that's on our terminators. Where are you getting your information from

 nintura wrote:
You're not a shooting army.

I think that is literally the first time anyone has ever said that about Grey Knights since the 3rd edition Daemonhunter codex.

For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.