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I think we already have flash gitz for that role, which basically are equipped with a big shoota with better AP. Just make snazzguns assault or rapid fire and give them the 4+ save every nob has.

But also warbikes are basically boyz with 2 big shootas. I don't think a unit of 5-15 dudes with big shootas would be a great add, I'd prefer to improve the already existing units which are very similar to a full squad of guys with big shootas.

The AP-1 is very needed, big shootas are basically heavy bolters, they should have the same AP.

Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).

I would really like Warbikers to gain some serious Durability. I tried fielding them early in 8th and they were just trash. Anytime they got in range they were so decimated by enemy fire that they ran away or were ineffective. Really they need a 4++ Save and -1AP as well as either 3 more shots or better BS on the shots we have to justify them costing 27ppm. They cost more then TWICE as much as 2 Big Shoota Boyz, and nobody even takes the Big Shoota boyz because they are trash as well.

I think some problems come from the way the Formations are currently set up. Taking a Patrol detachment is a waste of pts since you are not getting CP, so unless you get access to a unique character, or awesome Stratagem. If you got 1 CP for each Patrol Detachment it would be far more plausible to take 2 Patrol Detachments with Orks from other klans than your main one.

As for the Grot rebellion I think that should be fixed by not requiring HQ in Outrider, Spearhead and Vanguard detachments. This would be good for so many factions where you might want to run an entirely vehicle-based list but don't have access to proper support characters or if you just don't want to break theme. It would also be great in themed lists like a Grot rebellion or Canoptek initial defence force, where Characters don't fit. You won't get a Warlord Trait or a Relic without a Character, I think that's bad enough. Forcing characters down player's throats is not much fun.

I made a Codex for the Orks with 6 Klans, 26 Stratagems, 11 Relics and 12 Warlord traits. I don't think speed freaks need a trait of their own as it is more of a playstyle than anything and Evil Sunz already fit well enough. Kaptin Badrukk does not have a klan so I think it's fair to say the pirate Orks won't get a klan, hopefully they'll get a buff of some kind to make up for it.

Find it here: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Angrier_Initiative#ORKS

 Nazrak wrote:
Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).

Grots need expanding, they are not as bad as some people seem to think - for an army that wants to advance I see the main purpose as following the boyz, not leading them - blocking stuff deep striking close enough behind that I care.

Would love more or a role for them though

You clearly put a lot of thought into this and for that I salute you.

Also the stompa is way to overpriced at the moment and defiantly deserves that points reduction (a similar reduction for the Kustom stompa would also be much appreciated)

leopard wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).

Grots need expanding, they are not as bad as some people seem to think - for an army that wants to advance I see the main purpose as following the boyz, not leading them - blocking stuff deep striking close enough behind that I care.

Would love more or a role for them though

I agree – I think they definitely serve a purpose, but I think they’re just a little bit too much expensive for that purpose right now.

I noticed that there is a tankbusta bomb on the boyz sprue. I wonder ifn his could could give trukk boyz more purpose. Squad of ten boys with a nob and a bomma? Would just giving one boy in a squad access to those be worth paying for it? Or would it be too strong?

What if Orks got
Ard to Miss - BS may be raised to a 4+ within 6".
Grot Fodder - Orks may fire at a unit in close-combat with Gretchin only, but on a 1 toHit 1 of said Gretchin units takes a wound

I was also thinking an ork shotgun might be fun, maybe as cheap option for burna-boyz, then buff the burna, gives them some fodder and light longer ranged attacks.

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:
What if Orks got
Ard to Miss - BS may be raised to a 4+ within 6".
Grot Fodder - Orks may fire at a unit in close-combat with Gretchin only, but on a 1 toHit 1 of said Gretchin units takes a wound

I was also thinking an ork shotgun might be fun, maybe as cheap option for burna-boyz, then buff the burna, gives them some fodder and light longer ranged attacks.

Ard to miss would be better if it was 12" so our stuff can use it if it deep strikes.
Grot Fodder should definitely exist.

I don't see the point of an Ork shotgun though? I feel we need improvements to our existing weapons rather than new ones?

 Nazrak wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Fixing gretchin: 2ppm/PL1 for the first ten. At the moment, they’re 3/4 the points / same PL as Conscripts, despite the latter being a HUGE improvement. Gretchin should be garbage, but they should be super-cheap garbage. Alternatively, make them T3 (after all, they share the same resilient fungal make-up as boyz, so that’s not particularly implausible).

Grots need expanding, they are not as bad as some people seem to think - for an army that wants to advance I see the main purpose as following the boyz, not leading them - blocking stuff deep striking close enough behind that I care.

Would love more or a role for them though

I agree – I think they definitely serve a purpose, but I think they’re just a little bit too much expensive for that purpose right now.

In this edition the real purpose of gretchins is to be ammo runts for the nobz or gunners crew for scratch built or converted mek gunz

What if boarding planks alowed units to charge out of open topped vehicles without needing to disembark first?

Point drops across the codex...

- inv. save on biker boyz that advanced, heck even give it to all our fast attack stuff...

- Orks always hit on 6+ regardless of modifiers.

- Grechin changes, 1 ppm, A way to take wounds for hordes on a 4+ roll or something.

KLAN rules

- I like Evil Sunz getting flat 6" advance. (vehicles and bikes)
- Badmoonz get +1 to Shooting if they are closer than 9" (To stop the 25 (mobed up) tankbustas showing up hiting on 4+ silliness) and Kannons too..
- Bloodaxe 12" outside -1 to shooting, cus they is hard to see...
- Goff would be like +1 T on all infantry units; T5 - 6 being the norm would be great vs small arms fire.
- Deffskullz steal D3 command points from the enemy before the start of the game, idk about stealing units... weapons maybe like 7th.
- Snakebites could be +1 to wound non-vehicles...

KillerOfMany wrote:
Point drops across the codex...

- inv. save on biker boyz that advanced, heck even give it to all our fast attack stuff...

- Orks always hit on 6+ regardless of modifiers.

- Grechin changes, 1 ppm, A way to take wounds for hordes on a 4+ roll or something.

KLAN rules

- I like Evil Sunz getting flat 6" advance. (vehicles and bikes)
- Badmoonz get +1 to Shooting if they are closer than 9" (To stop the 25 (mobed up) tankbustas showing up hiting on 4+ silliness) and Kannons too..
- Bloodaxe 12" outside -1 to shooting, cus they is hard to see...
- Goff would be like +1 T on all infantry units; T5 - 6 being the norm would be great vs small arms fire.
- Deffskullz steal D3 command points from the enemy before the start of the game, idk about stealing units... weapons maybe like 7th.
- Snakebites could be +1 to wound non-vehicles...

You want a 1 point per model grot with an extra point of toughness for free?

Why not add 'GW has to mail each ork player 10 boxes of boys for free' to that list while you're swinging

 davou wrote:

KillerOfMany wrote:
Point drops across the codex...

- inv. save on biker boyz that advanced, heck even give it to all our fast attack stuff...

- Orks always hit on 6+ regardless of modifiers.

- Grechin changes, 1 ppm, A way to take wounds for hordes on a 4+ roll or something.

KLAN rules

- I like Evil Sunz getting flat 6" advance. (vehicles and bikes)
- Badmoonz get +1 to Shooting if they are closer than 9" (To stop the 25 (mobed up) tankbustas showing up hiting on 4+ silliness) and Kannons too..
- Bloodaxe 12" outside -1 to shooting, cus they is hard to see...
- Goff would be like +1 T on all infantry units; T5 - 6 being the norm would be great vs small arms fire.
- Deffskullz steal D3 command points from the enemy before the start of the game, idk about stealing units... weapons maybe like 7th.
- Snakebites could be +1 to wound non-vehicles...

You want a 1 point per model grot with an extra point of toughness for free?

Why not add 'GW has to mail each ork player 10 boxes of boys for free' to that list while you're swinging

lol

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ard to miss would be better if it was 12" so our stuff can use it if it deep strikes.
Grot Fodder should definitely exist.

I don't see the point of an Ork shotgun though? I feel we need improvements to our existing weapons rather than new ones?

12" feels a little unorky for me. I think we still need to be a close-range faction, perhaps 9" to support Da Jump for certain weapons, like...
Shooty Weapons within 9", and any Infantry weapon not marked Heavy within 6", may aim at BS:4+

Perhaps that'd encourage close-ranged tank-bustas with their other wargear options, not sure what'd do to the boy vs elite dynamic.

Glad we're agreed the Gretchin need something in their rules to emphasise their role in ork society lol.
I love my ammo-runts, but I kind of think they shouldn't work the way they do.

I think just put some sort of boomstick on the spru for nobz/elites, maybe as a cheeky D3 pistol. I'd like to see something similar for the grot, like a stray-squig, only on a 1 it backfires.

I'm a simple man, cool plastic and competitive shooting rules is all I want.

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ard to miss would be better if it was 12" so our stuff can use it if it deep strikes.
Grot Fodder should definitely exist.

I don't see the point of an Ork shotgun though? I feel we need improvements to our existing weapons rather than new ones?

12" feels a little unorky for me. I think we still need to be a close-range faction, perhaps 9" to support Da Jump for certain weapons, like...
Shooty Weapons within 9", and any Infantry weapon not marked Heavy within 6", may aim at BS:4+

Perhaps that'd encourage close-ranged tank-bustas with their other wargear options, not sure what'd do to the boy vs elite dynamic.

Glad we're agreed the Gretchin need something in their rules to emphasise their role in ork society lol.
I love my ammo-runts, but I kind of think they shouldn't work the way they do.

I think just put some sort of boomstick on the spru for nobz/elites, maybe as a cheeky D3 pistol. I'd like to see something similar for the grot, like a stray-squig, only on a 1 it backfires.

I'm a simple man, cool plastic and competitive shooting rules is all I want.

9" won't work for deepstrikes cause you have to place a model FURTHER than 9". So, 9.(0)1

 davou wrote:
What if boarding planks alowed units to charge out of open topped vehicles without needing to disembark first?

Give dis boy a fried squig! Amazing idea!
Additionally, for pure flavor, boarding plank should allow trukkboys attacking embarked units inside enemy vehicle within 1", even if ork vehicle advanced that turn. No need to open up that transport with hard hitting shooters, just drive up close with your trusty trukk and storm them!

Okay, how do we make burnaboys viable? It is not only point costs that make them bad, the are squishy and have no abblative wounds. D3 for entire squad makes them too much of hit or miss. To top it off, their special rule (pyromaniacs) is just crap, and also despite being able to cut through vehicle hulls to help meks(lorewise) burnaboys can't do anything against vehicles.

I suggest Pyromaniacs to have something to do with, well, burning infantry and being something useful. Like for every killed model burnaboys inflict an additional hit on targeted unit, as fire and confusion of dying enemies spring orks for even more violence. Burnas are D6 normally and rolled individually; D3 if they are to be used as melee weapon this turn with AP 2 (Which nozzle? From 7th ed). Additionally, when Burnas are used as a melee weapon they deal D3 damage to vehicles, as burnas cut through the hull with makeshift blowtorches. This makes burnaboys good both versus infantry and vehicles, but they need to get upclose. Burnaboys look kinda armored, with all the metal on them, so I'd say that 5+ save would suit them fine. Additionally you can exchange up to 3/6/9 burna boys for spanners, basically normal boys who can take choppas/sluggas or shootas(and obviously spanners have a 6+ save). 2 spanners per 1 burnaboy when exchanged like that. Also having a burnanob with skorcha would be great, but I guess no models = no rules makes this impossible.

I don't know how much should they cost with those changes though or if they'd be OP. They seem useful and a bit more flexible that way though.

 JawRippa wrote:

 davou wrote:
What if boarding planks alowed units to charge out of open topped vehicles without needing to disembark first?

Give dis boy a fried squig! Amazing idea!
Additionally, for pure flavor, boarding plank should allow trukkboys attacking embarked units inside enemy vehicle within 1", even if ork vehicle advanced that turn. No need to open up that transport with hard hitting shooters, just drive up close with your trusty trukk and storm them!

Okay, how do we make burnaboys viable? It is not only point costs that make them bad, the are squishy and have no abblative wounds. D3 for entire squad makes them too much of hit or miss. To top it off, their special rule (pyromaniacs) is just crap, and also despite being able to cut through vehicle hulls to help meks(lorewise) burnaboys can't do anything against vehicles.

I suggest Pyromaniacs to have something to do with, well, burning infantry and being something useful. Like for every killed model burnaboys inflict an additional hit on targeted unit, as fire and confusion of dying enemies spring orks for even more violence. Burnas are D6 normally and rolled individually; D3 if they are to be used as melee weapon this turn with AP 2 (Which nozzle? From 7th ed). Additionally, when Burnas are used as a melee weapon they deal D3 damage to vehicles, as burnas cut through the hull with makeshift blowtorches. This makes burnaboys good both versus infantry and vehicles, but they need to get upclose. Burnaboys look kinda armored, with all the metal on them, so I'd say that 5+ save would suit them fine. Additionally you can exchange up to 3/6/9 burna boys for spanners, basically normal boys who can take choppas/sluggas or shootas(and obviously spanners have a 6+ save). 2 spanners per 1 burnaboy when exchanged like that. Also having a burnanob with skorcha would be great, but I guess no models = no rules makes this impossible.

I don't know how much should they cost with those changes though or if they'd be OP. They seem useful and a bit more flexible that way though.

Yes the boarding plank idea is solid and I could envisage it. It'll probably be a stratagem though.

Would burna Boyz work if they were d6 flamers but a roll of a 1 (unmodified) is a "backfire" where the model has to roll to wound itself and then save? They could have a "flaming grot" for every model that serves as a once per battle reroll and ablative wound for a few pts.

I hope not keen on the Evil sunz klan rule being "auto advance 6", it benefits infantry most of all and doesn't give any particular reason to take bikes and other vehicles.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Yes the boarding plank idea is solid and I could envisage it. It'll probably be a stratagem though.

Would burna Boyz work if they were d6 flamers but a roll of a 1 (unmodified) is a "backfire" where the model has to roll to wound itself and then save? They could have a "flaming grot" for every model that serves as a once per battle reroll and ablative wound for a few pts.

I hope not keen on the Evil sunz klan rule being "auto advance 6", it benefits infantry most of all and doesn't give any particular reason to take bikes and other vehicles.

You are making a squishy unit even more squishy though. They have enough troubles getting into effective range (since da jump leaves you just outside of range for flamers. More ablative wounds would be welcomed though.

For evil suns bonus advance should be different depending on unit type.

To have burnaboyz viable I'd just make them 2-3 points cheaper and their burna a regular flamer with D6 shots.

 JawRippa wrote:
You are making a squishy unit even more squishy though. They have enough troubles getting into effective range (since da jump leaves you just outside of range for flamers. More ablative wounds would be welcomed though.

For evil suns bonus advance should be different depending on unit type.

Aye, on Burna Boyz I'm not sure that the solution is to make them tougher. Give them a 4+ save and they have a better save than Flash Gits and equal to Nobs? I dno. If they had d6 flamers I would be a lot more inclined to take them. Perhaps the Pyromaniak rule could be an extra shooting phase if they wipe a unit?

Bonus advance for Evil Sunz is garbage and lazy. If that was the Klan rule I'd be devastated. Why would I take a guaranteed 3" advance when I could roll a possible 4-6"? As I said earlier, if all units have guaranteed advance it benefits infantry more than vehicles and bikes, which makes no sense.

Evil Sunz Klan rule should be similar to White Scars or something like; "no negative modifiers apply when firing weapons after advancing". I could think of better ones but I'd take those. Guaranteed 6" advance sucks.

I still don't see why Orks being unaffected by to hit modifiers isn't a thing. They don't aim in the first place.

With - to hit modifiers being the way they are in 8th, a single -1 to hit modifiers means Orks cannot hit if they advance with assault weapons, or move with heavy. Two -1 to meaning Orks cannot hit at all, there are multiple factions that can get -2 to hit...


Orks need to return to having BS 4+.

Points adjustments for all units with the vehicle keyword, MANz, Nobz, and all Ork chararcters.

I just think unit wise, we need a new MBT and some clan specific units. (I would like some SB boar boyz or BA Ogryns, skarboyz, warpheadz, for example)

Also, there needs to be either points mitigation or something in the 'dex to appreciate that we cannot even fire at some units due to low BS and modifiers. I'm all for being melee heavy, but transports are far too expensive atm. Which, without other heavy options, means Trukks and BW's are always lit up like christmas trees for enemy heavy weapons. (Also due to our walkers being on the slow side as well.)

Basically, I don't want green tide to be our only viable option.

An Actual Englishman wrote:Aye, on Burna Boyz I'm not sure that the solution is to make them tougher. Give them a 4+ save and they have a better save than Flash Gits and equal to Nobs? I dno. If they had d6 flamers I would be a lot more inclined to take them. Perhaps the Pyromaniak rule could be an extra shooting phase if they wipe a unit?

I like the idea - especially since they are in no way guaranteed to wipe a unit even wit d6 S4 shots or that there is another target worth shooting withing flamer range.

Another thing I have suggested in the other thread is making their melee profile do 2 damage. kooaei called them "concentrated boyz" once, and I think this is a good description of what they should do. However, when actually using them, they just feel like regular boyz, minus the PK nob. The AP -2 is not a real advantage, it just mitigates the loss of the choppa and green tide. At 2 damage, they would be better than boyz against some targets, and worse against others. Plus their fluff actually mentions them using their burnas to cut appart vehicles to loot them. Currently they struggle to even scratch vehicles.
Making spannas useful for the first time ever would also do a lot for burnas. At the very least a spanna with slugga and choppa should cost less than a burna boy.

Bonus advance for Evil Sunz is garbage and lazy. If that was the Klan rule I'd be devastated. Why would I take a guaranteed 3" advance when I could roll a possible 4-6"? As I said earlier, if all units have guaranteed advance it benefits infantry more than vehicles and bikes, which makes no sense.

Evil Sunz Klan rule should be similar to White Scars or something like; "no negative modifiers apply when firing weapons after advancing". I could think of better ones but I'd take those. Guaranteed 6" advance sucks.

Firing weapons while advancing would fit Bad Moons more though. In other armies, this is usually giving to "slow and purposeful" style armies.
To keep the advance them, you could do 2d6, pick highest for bikers, trukks and battlewagons only. Planes don't need it and walker
Also note that newer codices (daemons, nids, eldar) usually have their "clan" power defined by three parameters: clan rule, clan stratagem and clan relic. So I wouldn't mind if the clan rule is slightly weaker, if you get a powerful stratagem instead.

blaktoof wrote:Orks need to return to having BS 4+.

At least all that rely on shooting. A relic to boost a single character to BS 3+ would be very nice to make a single SAG great without allowing people to mindlessly spam it to abuse character rules.

I think one of the reasons Trukks are so expensive this edition is because vehicles can lock units in combat. If we had access to cheap trukks we could just lock down all the enemy's units and that seems too powerful.

What if Trukks had a rule that enemy units that are locked in combat with Trukks (and only Trukks) are can fall back with no penalty?

That way we could not abuse cheap Trukks and they could lower the point price.

What do you think?

I haven't thought much in the way of specific point changes really, for me it's mostly been stuff that just felt liek they we missing.

Deffrollas should be carnifex style MW on charge, is is it's just sad, act more like a massage roller than a giant spiky man-pulper.

Nobs should have powa choppas, seriously, power stabbas was a plain stupid idea, we've had nearly a dozen different choppas with power-weapon wires and beads for well over a decade, but our only "stabba" is a single bionic that looke liek a cross between a harpoon, and a sowing machine.

Burna boys should be able top properly cut into tanks like their lore has been for ages, even if it's a only 1 attach with this proifile per turn thing.

Meks shoudl have a "knack" rule so random shot weapons within X could re-roll (only applies to burnas/lootas if the mek is joined to the unit as it represents pre-battle tinkering), suddenly Meks serve a role among lootas, besides soaking bullets for the ones with worthwhile guns.

As for klan rules, I've been going more for feel than balance but here goes:

Deffskulls: "Jest kick it right ere' "Same a Mek's "knack" make meks repiar better, cause a deffskull's always gotta keep his getaway vehicle in good repair.

Blood axes: "Sneaky Gitz" The vanilla +1 cover, maybe a better ambush for their Komandoes

Bad moons: "More teef dan sesne" I like the idea of Extra BS, not because of training but because they just have more bullets to shoot

Goff: "We'z da best" Larger LD aura, heck maybe I'd just say larger Auras overall.

Snakebites: "Tuff as old boots" 6++ for infantry and non-vehicles.

Evil suns: "Red unz go fasta", vehicles advance 6', infantry may disembark after a move (though not charge, unless equipped with a boarding plank)

I really like the idea of the boading plank making a vehicle act like classic Open topped.

Also the Grabbin' klaw should lock stuff in CC with a vehicle equipped with one, I'd even add a Harpoon stule gun to buggies for the same effect, and to echo classic Gorkamaorka.

 Jidmah wrote:
Firing weapons while advancing would fit Bad Moons more though. In other armies, this is usually giving to "slow and purposeful" style armies.
To keep the advance them, you could do 2d6, pick highest for bikers, trukks and battlewagons only. Planes don't need it and walker
Also note that newer codices (daemons, nids, eldar) usually have their "clan" power defined by three parameters: clan rule, clan stratagem and clan relic. So I wouldn't mind if the clan rule is slightly weaker, if you get a powerful stratagem instead.

Glad you like the Burna idea

I really don't want an advance mechanic for Evil Sunz but I think my perception is biased because I can't see Bikes being viable in any setting, as they are now. Perhaps if bikes were made better the advance rule might not be as lame. As I said way earlier, my ideal would be to give Evil Sunz a 'retreat from combat and re-engage for free' rule then give bikes a way to generate mortal wounds on a charge. I mean; "roll 2d6 and pick highest" is still weaker than "auto 6" advance" that other armies have as their base Bike rule. It would also be one of the only Chapter tactic like rules that only effects bikes, trukks and battlewagons while others get them for all units? Seems weak.

It is possible that we get a +1 cover save for all units that advanced ala that Nid hive fleet and the fluff reason would be all the smoke and exhaust fumes?

I've been trying to come up with orky buffs to shooting that don't betray the flavour of the faction.

One idea I was discussing with a friend was a "stray bullet" stratagem or ability. Maybe something like you can re-roll failed hits, and on a 6 they hit the nearest unit (friend or foe) within 6" of the target. Not 100% certain on how the mechanics would be but the idea is that they're more likely to hit SOMETHING, just not the right thing.

Another idea was to be able to target enemy units while they are in melee with your own units, but for each 1 you roll your unit takes a mortal wound or something of the sort. I figured from a flavour perspective you could have grots in melee with an enemy unit as your boyz indiscriminately shoot into the pit.

I haven't read through the thread fully but I saw some talk about shotguns, I think it'd be cool if kommandos could take shotguns aka speshul shootas in place of a slugga and choppa. I saw a profile for an imperial unit with a shotgun that gave it +1 strength when targeting a unit within half the shotguns range. I reckon a sneaky git would take delight in getting the drop on someone with their speshul shoota.