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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm more annoyed that, on top of vehicles not getting Chapter Tactics (though that would be silly on Ultramarines vehicles), is apparently even Tyranids are getting a Grinding Advance rule on the Tyrannofex. It wouldn't have killed GW to throw Chaos Marines and Loyalist Scum a bone to Predators.

It's worth noting that the Destructor model of predator (the autocannon one) already kind of got it, with the 2d3 rather than 2 shots. They doubled, on average, it's number of shots.

It was part of the reason the battlecannon was so bad on the Russ - the Predator's gun had 1 lower strength and AP but a higher number of hits. Compared to how they were earlier editions, and the LRBT came out the loser.

It's just the Annihilator that misses out really.

It is also important to take note here that even without Grinding Advance, a heavy support Predator Annihilator is a way better tank/monster hunter and is putting out far more damage on average than any Heavy Support Russ variant even with double firing, unless we're talking a hideously expensive stationary russ with Multimelta sponsons at close range. Even with double-firing, the Russ tanks seem to largely be merely "Ok" rather than "amazing" for the most part. Though the Fire Prism now seems to be an autotake x2 in almost every Eldar list looking at the army list forum

Also, talking Autocannon variants, the Predator Destructor went from 2 shots to 2D3 (average 4, max 6), the Leman Russ Exterminator went from a 4 shot Twin Linked Autocannon to...a 4 shot autocannon, it was one of the only units in the game not to get its twin linked rate of fire doubled in its native profile in the Index or Codex in the transition from 7E to 8E. It's weapon has worse range, AP and S than a Battlecannon...and lower average and lower max damage against most kinds of targets...and somehow is more expensive than a battlecannon. Thanks GW!

A battlecannon costs about the same as a lascannon and is as effective as 3 of them on a russ.

With double firing against T7 or lower targets? Sure. A supercharged Executioner plasma cannon is even better against those targets however and is the same cost.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm more annoyed that, on top of vehicles not getting Chapter Tactics (though that would be silly on Ultramarines vehicles), is apparently even Tyranids are getting a Grinding Advance rule on the Tyrannofex. It wouldn't have killed GW to throw Chaos Marines and Loyalist Scum a bone to Predators.

It's worth noting that the Destructor model of predator (the autocannon one) already kind of got it, with the 2d3 rather than 2 shots. They doubled, on average, it's number of shots.

It was part of the reason the battlecannon was so bad on the Russ - the Predator's gun had 1 lower strength and AP but a higher number of hits. Compared to how they were earlier editions, and the LRBT came out the loser.

It's just the Annihilator that misses out really.

It is also important to take note here that even without Grinding Advance, a heavy support Predator Annihilator is a way better tank/monster hunter and is putting out far more damage on average than any Heavy Support Russ variant even with double firing, unless we're talking a hideously expensive stationary russ with Multimelta sponsons at close range. Even with double-firing, the Russ tanks seem to largely be merely "Ok" rather than "amazing" for the most part. Though the Fire Prism now seems to be an autotake x2 in almost every Eldar list looking at the army list forum

Also, talking Autocannon variants, the Predator Destructor went from 2 shots to 2D3 (average 4, max 6), the Leman Russ Exterminator went from a 4 shot Twin Linked Autocannon to...a 4 shot autocannon, it was one of the only units in the game not to get its twin linked rate of fire doubled in its native profile in the Index or Codex in the transition from 7E to 8E. It's weapon has worse range, AP and S than a Battlecannon...and lower average and lower max damage against most kinds of targets...and somehow is more expensive than a battlecannon. Thanks GW!

A battlecannon costs about the same as a lascannon and is as effective as 3 of them on a russ.

Effective against what targets:

Against another Russ (Assuming BS 4+):
3 Lascannons: 2.91 damage
Battlecannon: 1.16 damage

You know the battle cannon is 2d6 str 8 shots right? I can tell that math is wrong just by looking at the results. Here - I will help you.

You know that the 2d6 shots is incorporated in the cost of the platform and not the weapon, right? Because the platform has the special rule?

Or did you think that Malcador's battlecannon should go up in price because the Leman Russ can shoot it twice?

Ofc it's cost should have gone up for shooting twice?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm more annoyed that, on top of vehicles not getting Chapter Tactics (though that would be silly on Ultramarines vehicles), is apparently even Tyranids are getting a Grinding Advance rule on the Tyrannofex. It wouldn't have killed GW to throw Chaos Marines and Loyalist Scum a bone to Predators.

It's worth noting that the Destructor model of predator (the autocannon one) already kind of got it, with the 2d3 rather than 2 shots. They doubled, on average, it's number of shots.

It was part of the reason the battlecannon was so bad on the Russ - the Predator's gun had 1 lower strength and AP but a higher number of hits. Compared to how they were earlier editions, and the LRBT came out the loser.

It's just the Annihilator that misses out really.

It is also important to take note here that even without Grinding Advance, a heavy support Predator Annihilator is a way better tank/monster hunter and is putting out far more damage on average than any Heavy Support Russ variant even with double firing, unless we're talking a hideously expensive stationary russ with Multimelta sponsons at close range. Even with double-firing, the Russ tanks seem to largely be merely "Ok" rather than "amazing" for the most part. Though the Fire Prism now seems to be an autotake x2 in almost every Eldar list looking at the army list forum

Also, talking Autocannon variants, the Predator Destructor went from 2 shots to 2D3 (average 4, max 6), the Leman Russ Exterminator went from a 4 shot Twin Linked Autocannon to...a 4 shot autocannon, it was one of the only units in the game not to get its twin linked rate of fire doubled in its native profile in the Index or Codex in the transition from 7E to 8E. It's weapon has worse range, AP and S than a Battlecannon...and lower average and lower max damage against most kinds of targets...and somehow is more expensive than a battlecannon. Thanks GW!

A battlecannon costs about the same as a lascannon and is as effective as 3 of them on a russ.

Effective against what targets:

Against another Russ (Assuming BS 4+):
3 Lascannons: 2.91 damage
Battlecannon: 1.16 damage

You know the battle cannon is 2d6 str 8 shots right? I can tell that math is wrong just by looking at the results. Here - I will help you.

You know that the 2d6 shots is incorporated in the cost of the platform and not the weapon, right? Because the platform has the special rule?

Or did you think that Malcador's battlecannon should go up in price because the Leman Russ can shoot it twice?

Ofc it's cost should have gone up for shooting twice?

The special rule that lets it fire twice is on the Leman Russ, not the Battlecannon. The Leman Russ has a separate points cost, that presumably includes that special rule on it because the battlecannon can be taken by other units that do not fire twice. The battlecannon that can shoot twice (i.e. Rapid Fire Battle Cannon on the Knight) costs 100 points.

Why is this hard?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm more annoyed that, on top of vehicles not getting Chapter Tactics (though that would be silly on Ultramarines vehicles), is apparently even Tyranids are getting a Grinding Advance rule on the Tyrannofex. It wouldn't have killed GW to throw Chaos Marines and Loyalist Scum a bone to Predators.

It's worth noting that the Destructor model of predator (the autocannon one) already kind of got it, with the 2d3 rather than 2 shots. They doubled, on average, it's number of shots.

It was part of the reason the battlecannon was so bad on the Russ - the Predator's gun had 1 lower strength and AP but a higher number of hits. Compared to how they were earlier editions, and the LRBT came out the loser.

It's just the Annihilator that misses out really.

It is also important to take note here that even without Grinding Advance, a heavy support Predator Annihilator is a way better tank/monster hunter and is putting out far more damage on average than any Heavy Support Russ variant even with double firing, unless we're talking a hideously expensive stationary russ with Multimelta sponsons at close range. Even with double-firing, the Russ tanks seem to largely be merely "Ok" rather than "amazing" for the most part. Though the Fire Prism now seems to be an autotake x2 in almost every Eldar list looking at the army list forum

Also, talking Autocannon variants, the Predator Destructor went from 2 shots to 2D3 (average 4, max 6), the Leman Russ Exterminator went from a 4 shot Twin Linked Autocannon to...a 4 shot autocannon, it was one of the only units in the game not to get its twin linked rate of fire doubled in its native profile in the Index or Codex in the transition from 7E to 8E. It's weapon has worse range, AP and S than a Battlecannon...and lower average and lower max damage against most kinds of targets...and somehow is more expensive than a battlecannon. Thanks GW!

A battlecannon costs about the same as a lascannon and is as effective as 3 of them on a russ.

Effective against what targets:

Against another Russ (Assuming BS 4+):
3 Lascannons: 2.91 damage
Battlecannon: 1.16 damage

You know the battle cannon is 2d6 str 8 shots right? I can tell that math is wrong just by looking at the results. Here - I will help you.

You know that the 2d6 shots is incorporated in the cost of the platform and not the weapon, right? Because the platform has the special rule?

Or did you think that Malcador's battlecannon should go up in price because the Leman Russ can shoot it twice?

Ofc it's cost should have gone up for shooting twice?

The weapon didn't change, a Battlecannon is the same weapon on a Defiler as it is on a Russ, same as a Demolisher cannon on a Russ or Vindicator. The platform it's being put on got a rule allowing it to double fire, not the gun itself. GW has decided to keep weapons profiles largely the same across all armies.

It's the Russ platform that got the double-firing rule, applied to any turret weapon regardless of what it is. It got that rule because, quite frankly, Russ tanks were dramatically underwhelming without it given what they cost in the Index, and they can only do that if they don't take advantage of the greatly expanded movement they've been given in 8E too.

You should take comfort in the fact that your codex is probably already written and it's going to be better than the space marine codex when it comes out.

But they are not out. They are not going to be out for months - if they all even get Codexes.

My Dark Eldar don't have cool artefacts like my Marines, My Sisters don't have cool Order tactics like my Marines, my Tau don't have special stratagems like my Marines, My Orks don't have points drops across the board like my Marines

How long have Marines had all theses bonuses?? but I forget - that's all fine - we should wait and it will all be fine - but obviously Marines need action now to make them better?

None of these armies have a whole new range of units and vehicles - like oh yeah Marines - one of these armies doesn't have plastic models....but that's fine cos look Marines.

We might get something in Chapter Approved, but not if its cluttered up with yet more Marine stuff.

GW are adjusting stuff as they go along so its possible some things may yet change - they have adjusted Guard recently and likely there will be some adjustments to Eldar and then Nids when they come out.

Ofc it's cost should have gone up for shooting twice?

Remind me which marine units got points increases when they got better in the Codex? In fact remind which Marine units got any kind of increase? Presumably this was rebalancing ? So the same is true of every other Codex?

Russ was not really underperfoming. It just wasn't playing because of manticores and basilisks being OP as gak.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The special rule that lets it fire twice is on the Leman Russ, not the Battlecannon. The Leman Russ has a separate points cost, that presumably includes that special rule on it because the battlecannon can be taken by other units that do not fire twice. The battlecannons that can shoot twice (i.e. Rapid Fire Battle Cannon on the Knight) costs 100 points.

Why is this hard?

I mean, it's pretty silly to talk like the platform and its weapons are separable. You can't figure out the appropriate cost of the full package except by considering the full package. "Grinding Advance" would be almost worthless if Russes were choosing between lasguns and bolt pistols for their turret weapon. It also makes absolutely no sense to try to compare weapon costs for weapons that have no overlap in terms of other weapons that can be taken instead. Like, obviously it's meaningless that a Shadowsword's volcano cannon is free. That doesn't reflect the balance team's judgment that it is weaker than a 2 point storm bolter. The RFBC is priced what it is because they wanted to keep the Knight chassis at (about?) the same price, with their cost differences due to their weapons, and so the RFBC needs to be priced as if competing directly with much less desirable options like the reaper chainsword. If you wanted to let Russes choose between lasguns and battle cannons for their turret weapon, you would have to significantly increase the price of their battle cannon (and lower the price of the platform) in order for players to have any reason at all to take the lasgun. As-is the model can get away with being expensive relative to its main gun because all of the main guns are comparably powerful.

 Mr Morden wrote:

You should take comfort in the fact that your codex is probably already written and it's going to be better than the space marine codex when it comes out.

But they are not out. They are not going to be out for months - if they all even get Codexes.

My Dark Eldar don't have cool artefacts like my Marines, My Sisters don't have cool Order tactics like my Marines, my Tau don't have special stratagems like my Marines, My Orks don't have points drops across the board like my Marines

How long have Marines had all theses bonuses?? but I forget - that's all fine - we should wait and it will all be fine - but obviously Marines need action now to make them better?

None of these armies have a whole new range of units and vehicles - like oh yeah Marines - one of these armies doesn't have plastic models....but that's fine cos look Marines.

We might get something in Chapter Approved, but not if its cluttered up with yet more Marine stuff.

GW are adjusting stuff as they go along so its possible some things may yet change - they have adjusted Guard recently and likely there will be some adjustments to Eldar and then Nids when they come out.

Ofc it's cost should have gone up for shooting twice?

Remind me which marine units got points increases when they got better in the Codex? In fact remind which Marine units got any kind of increase? Presumably this was rebalancing ? So the same is true of every other Codex?

You've got the crap end of of the stick for all your armies. I think we will have tau soon at least. I can sympathize with that. I'd rather be you though with my favorite army being complete trash except when I play with this giant gorillia that makes my stuff twice as good. Then people complain when I use him.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets take a look at these stratagems.

-Eldar have a new one called forewarned 2CP. Allows a unit within 6" of a farseer to get a free turn of shooting against any enemy unit that deep strike that turn. Unlimited range, no negatives to hit.
Think 10 man dark reapers....
-Space marine have auspex scanner 2 CP. Allows a space marine unit to shoot at a unit entering from reserves at -1 to hit if they are within 12 inches. So -1 to hit and extremely short range...the enemy has to willing drop within range of a super unit that still wont be able to hit them with -1 to hit. for the same cost.

With regards to the stratagem, I think a vital discussion part of it has been sorely missed out... (It may have been covered, I've only checked the first page and a half before the thread seemed to wander)

Eldar can only do it within 6 inches of a Farseer, No Farseer, no Stratagem.

Space marines applies for any space marine unit that may be within 12" of the unit that just came in, which means that you are within any rapid fire ranges you may have.

It's more balanced than people make out in my opinion because whilst Eldar get the better stick because they don't suffer penalties, they have a very short leash to play with.
Space marines get the smaller stick in terms of benefits, but ANY unit can do it without a leash attached, so spread your guys liberally across your field and dare your opponent to come close to that hell blaster unit or your intercessors for some rapid fire berating.

 Mr Morden wrote:

You should take comfort in the fact that your codex is probably already written and it's going to be better than the space marine codex when it comes out.

But they are not out. They are not going to be out for months - if they all even get Codexes.

My Dark Eldar don't have cool artefacts like my Marines, My Sisters don't have cool Order tactics like my Marines, my Tau don't have special stratagems like my Marines, My Orks don't have points drops across the board like my Marines

How long have Marines had all theses bonuses?? but I forget - that's all fine - we should wait and it will all be fine - but obviously Marines need action now to make them better?

None of these armies have a whole new range of units and vehicles - like oh yeah Marines - one of these armies doesn't have plastic models....but that's fine cos look Marines.

We might get something in Chapter Approved, but not if its cluttered up with yet more Marine stuff.

GW are adjusting stuff as they go along so its possible some things may yet change - they have adjusted Guard recently and likely there will be some adjustments to Eldar and then Nids when they come out.

Ofc it's cost should have gone up for shooting twice?

Remind me which marine units got points increases when they got better in the Codex? In fact remind which Marine units got any kind of increase? Presumably this was rebalancing ? So the same is true of every other Codex?

Some stuff got cheaper. As far as I know not a single unit got better and cheaper at the same time. Many AM units got this. Devastator centurions got more expensive whilst already being extremely over-costed.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The special rule that lets it fire twice is on the Leman Russ, not the Battlecannon. The Leman Russ has a separate points cost, that presumably includes that special rule on it because the battlecannon can be taken by other units that do not fire twice. The battlecannons that can shoot twice (i.e. Rapid Fire Battle Cannon on the Knight) costs 100 points.

Why is this hard?

I mean, it's pretty silly to talk like the platform and its weapons are separable. You can't figure out the appropriate cost of the full package except by considering the full package. "Grinding Advance" would be almost worthless if Russes were choosing between lasguns and bolt pistols for their turret weapon. It also makes absolutely no sense to try to compare weapon costs for weapons that have no overlap in terms of other weapons that can be taken instead. Like, obviously it's meaningless that a Shadowsword's volcano cannon is free. That doesn't reflect the balance team's judgment that it is weaker than a 2 point storm bolter. The RFBC is priced what it is because they wanted to keep the Knight chassis at (about?) the same price, with their cost differences due to their weapons, and so the RFBC needs to be priced as if competing directly with much less desirable options like the reaper chainsword. If you wanted to let Russes choose between lasguns and battle cannons for their turret weapon, you would have to significantly increase the price of their battle cannon (and lower the price of the platform) in order for players to have any reason at all to take the lasgun. As-is the model can get away with being expensive relative to its main gun because all of the main guns are comparably powerful.

So how would you handle a situation where a tank, like the Malcador, could take a Battlecannon, and so could your theoretical Russ.

Would the cost of the Malcador platform go down consummately with the Russ's, and the Battlecannon would be hugely expensive, making the 5-heavy-bolter Malcador variant ridiculously cheap?

Tristanleo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets take a look at these stratagems.

-Eldar have a new one called forewarned 2CP. Allows a unit within 6" of a farseer to get a free turn of shooting against any enemy unit that deep strike that turn. Unlimited range, no negatives to hit.
Think 10 man dark reapers....
-Space marine have auspex scanner 2 CP. Allows a space marine unit to shoot at a unit entering from reserves at -1 to hit if they are within 12 inches. So -1 to hit and extremely short range...the enemy has to willing drop within range of a super unit that still wont be able to hit them with -1 to hit. for the same cost.

With regards to the stratagem, I think a vital discussion part of it has been sorely missed out... (It may have been covered, I've only checked the first page and a half before the thread seemed to wander)

Eldar can only do it within 6 inches of a Farseer, No Farseer, no Stratagem.

Space marines applies for any space marine unit that may be within 12" of the unit that just came in, which means that you are within any rapid fire ranges you may have.

It's more balanced than people make out in my opinion because whilst Eldar get the better stick because they don't suffer penalties, they have a very short leash to play with.
Space marines get the smaller stick in terms of benefits, but ANY unit can do it without a leash attached, so spread your guys liberally across your field and dare your opponent to come close to that hell blaster unit or your intercessors for some rapid fire berating.

Why would an eldar player not bring a farseer?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets take a look at these stratagems.

-Eldar have a new one called forewarned 2CP. Allows a unit within 6" of a farseer to get a free turn of shooting against any enemy unit that deep strike that turn. Unlimited range, no negatives to hit.
Think 10 man dark reapers....
-Space marine have auspex scanner 2 CP. Allows a space marine unit to shoot at a unit entering from reserves at -1 to hit if they are within 12 inches. So -1 to hit and extremely short range...the enemy has to willing drop within range of a super unit that still wont be able to hit them with -1 to hit. for the same cost.

With regards to the stratagem, I think a vital discussion part of it has been sorely missed out... (It may have been covered, I've only checked the first page and a half before the thread seemed to wander)

Eldar can only do it within 6 inches of a Farseer, No Farseer, no Stratagem.

Space marines applies for any space marine unit that may be within 12" of the unit that just came in, which means that you are within any rapid fire ranges you may have.

It's more balanced than people make out in my opinion because whilst Eldar get the better stick because they don't suffer penalties, they have a very short leash to play with.
Space marines get the smaller stick in terms of benefits, but ANY unit can do it without a leash attached, so spread your guys liberally across your field and dare your opponent to come close to that hell blaster unit or your intercessors for some rapid fire berating.

Why would an eldar player not bring a farseer?

Maybe because they don't want it leashed to within 6" of their dark reapers like a dog?

Tristanleo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets take a look at these stratagems.

-Eldar have a new one called forewarned 2CP. Allows a unit within 6" of a farseer to get a free turn of shooting against any enemy unit that deep strike that turn. Unlimited range, no negatives to hit.
Think 10 man dark reapers....
-Space marine have auspex scanner 2 CP. Allows a space marine unit to shoot at a unit entering from reserves at -1 to hit if they are within 12 inches. So -1 to hit and extremely short range...the enemy has to willing drop within range of a super unit that still wont be able to hit them with -1 to hit. for the same cost.

With regards to the stratagem, I think a vital discussion part of it has been sorely missed out... (It may have been covered, I've only checked the first page and a half before the thread seemed to wander)

Eldar can only do it within 6 inches of a Farseer, No Farseer, no Stratagem.

Space marines applies for any space marine unit that may be within 12" of the unit that just came in, which means that you are within any rapid fire ranges you may have.

It's more balanced than people make out in my opinion because whilst Eldar get the better stick because they don't suffer penalties, they have a very short leash to play with.
Space marines get the smaller stick in terms of benefits, but ANY unit can do it without a leash attached, so spread your guys liberally across your field and dare your opponent to come close to that hell blaster unit or your intercessors for some rapid fire berating.

Just wanted to highlight that I think the Space Marine one can only be used on Infantry AND gives a -1 to Hit.

That said, I'm siding with the folks in the beginning who said Grey Knights have the worst. Did you know the Codex made our Terminators more expensive? Terminators.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ah, yes, the old "directly-comparable things are different between codices and therefore they are imbalanced" argument.

Because nowhere in the history of gaming have there been two directly comparable options in two completely different situations and one was better.

Like wtf, why does a wizard get more spell slots than my fighter. The number of spell-slots is directly comparable but I get less! So unfair, much imbalance.

I don't think dungeons and dragons is even supposed to be balanced. In this case though your fighter would have a higher strength characteristic which allows him to wield more powerful weapons or something like that. There would be a balancing factor or an attempt at one in the least. Anyways...I don't know RPG's. Here is a clear example of 2 strategems that do exactly the same thing - except one has 2 restrictions (to the point it becomes worthless) and the other essentially has no restriction(to the point that deep striking anything against this army is just giving away a unit) - is there a balancing factor here? Are marines so wildly better than eldar that eldar need their stratagems to be twice as good to beat them?

So requiring a farseer and being within 6" of said farseer aren't restricitons? Both deter deepstrike, and in order for the eldar one to be good you need to build specifically to use it unlike the marine version. The marine version is far from useless, it just isn't something you would build around.

Look at it this way, if I don't bring a farseer my opponent can deepstrike all they want. If I don't bring an ultra long range unit to go with that farseer it doesn't do much. You are looking at OMG imagine that with a 10 strong group of Dark Reapers!!! But now you are sinking 25% of your points into said unit for a stratagem that may only sometimes be useful.

The eldar one has the potential to be stronger, but is not always usable, the marine one is more flexible.

No problem - put it on a jetbike and it can move 20 inches every turn. It's spells also have good range. Plus nothing forces you to use the stratagem. Not including a farseer in your army is a pretty dumb idea though. They are are the staple eldar HQ.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets take a look at these stratagems.

-Eldar have a new one called forewarned 2CP. Allows a unit within 6" of a farseer to get a free turn of shooting against any enemy unit that deep strike that turn. Unlimited range, no negatives to hit.
Think 10 man dark reapers....
-Space marine have auspex scanner 2 CP. Allows a space marine unit to shoot at a unit entering from reserves at -1 to hit if they are within 12 inches. So -1 to hit and extremely short range...the enemy has to willing drop within range of a super unit that still wont be able to hit them with -1 to hit. for the same cost.

With regards to the stratagem, I think a vital discussion part of it has been sorely missed out... (It may have been covered, I've only checked the first page and a half before the thread seemed to wander)

Eldar can only do it within 6 inches of a Farseer, No Farseer, no Stratagem.

Space marines applies for any space marine unit that may be within 12" of the unit that just came in, which means that you are within any rapid fire ranges you may have.

It's more balanced than people make out in my opinion because whilst Eldar get the better stick because they don't suffer penalties, they have a very short leash to play with.
Space marines get the smaller stick in terms of benefits, but ANY unit can do it without a leash attached, so spread your guys liberally across your field and dare your opponent to come close to that hell blaster unit or your intercessors for some rapid fire berating.

Why would an eldar player not bring a farseer?

because they are not the auto-take HQ they used to be? As for not using the stratagem sure, you don't have to, neither do marines, but theirs makes the opponent think quite a bit more.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No problem - put it on a jetbike and it can move 20 inches every turn. It's spells also have good range. Plus nothing forces you to use the stratagem. Not including a farseer in your army is a pretty dumb idea though. They are are the staple eldar HQ.

Put it on a jetbike and have it masturbate by your Dark Reapers for 3 turns until your opponent is required to bring in their deep-strikers? Yeah, make it even more expensive and have it miss have the game with its 18" range psychic powers. Good plan.

Also, "you aren't forced to use the stratagem" isn't really a good defense.

The eldar one is infinitely better in so far as no player with knowledge of marine stratagems would deep strike next to a big shooting unit. They will just deep strike farther away or deep strike withing 12 inches of a unit that can't hurt them much but out of 12 inch from anything that can hurt them. The eldar one has 0 counterplay - except coming in out of line of site which often means doing 0 damage that turn.

Or focusing fire on a threatening unit standing right next to a farseer and killing them before dropping down. Or killing the farseer before dropping down. Or maybe having multiple units deep striking, and holding onto the one that you know your opponent is going to want to shoot, and then just opting not to drop the juicy unit at the end of all your other drops - Forewarning has to be used IMMEDIATELY after a unit drops down after all, if your opponent opts not to shoot the drop pod because he's waiting for the unit of Terminators, and instead of dropping the terminators you declare a shooting attack or psychic test, then it's no longer "Immediately after a unit deep strikes" and he can't retroactively go back and shoot the drop pod. Or, as you said, dropping somewhere out of LOS of the firing unit. I like that you have the same mentality of most video game players when you use the phrase "literally zero counterplay" - that if there isn't a large, red, glowing button labeled "OBVIOUS WEAKNESS" that you can slap to stop a counter from working, then there is LITERALLY nothing you can do against it. Sometimes the counterplay is "don't be in a situation where your opponent can trigger the stratagem".



"Wait so you're saying that the strength of one character / army list may in fact exist independently of two statistics taken completely out of context?"
are you saying that the eldar can't use the strategem as well as the marines could? And so the marines strategem was double nerfed to prevent them from abusing it. When in fact - there is no better unit in the game to use this strategem on other than a unit of dark reapers?

No better unit in the game. Not a single better unit. You know that theoretically you could have a superheavy use this stratagem, right? Or a whole unit of double-firing dakkastelans? I'm not saying Dark Reapers aren't a powerful unit, they absolutely are, but come on. If you want people to take what you say seriously, avoid this kind of stupid hyperbole.

Also of not Marines were the first codex, it is not improbable that they will get buffs in chapter approved.

Audustum wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets take a look at these stratagems.

-Eldar have a new one called forewarned 2CP. Allows a unit within 6" of a farseer to get a free turn of shooting against any enemy unit that deep strike that turn. Unlimited range, no negatives to hit.
Think 10 man dark reapers....
-Space marine have auspex scanner 2 CP. Allows a space marine unit to shoot at a unit entering from reserves at -1 to hit if they are within 12 inches. So -1 to hit and extremely short range...the enemy has to willing drop within range of a super unit that still wont be able to hit them with -1 to hit. for the same cost.

With regards to the stratagem, I think a vital discussion part of it has been sorely missed out... (It may have been covered, I've only checked the first page and a half before the thread seemed to wander)

Eldar can only do it within 6 inches of a Farseer, No Farseer, no Stratagem.

Space marines applies for any space marine unit that may be within 12" of the unit that just came in, which means that you are within any rapid fire ranges you may have.

It's more balanced than people make out in my opinion because whilst Eldar get the better stick because they don't suffer penalties, they have a very short leash to play with.
Space marines get the smaller stick in terms of benefits, but ANY unit can do it without a leash attached, so spread your guys liberally across your field and dare your opponent to come close to that hell blaster unit or your intercessors for some rapid fire berating.

Just wanted to highlight that I think the Space Marine one can only be used on Infantry AND gives a -1 to Hit.

That said, I'm siding with the folks in the beginning who said Grey Knights have the worst. Did you know the Codex made our Terminators more expensive? Terminators.

Greyknights are not actually as bad as marines. Also - as an allied force greyknights bring some really good stuff to the table - no one would allie a marine force for any reason - it would just make your army worse. It's okay though - we can ignore how bad the marine codex is because the greyknights codex is also bad.

LOL...no one would ally in a marine force..yeah ok. No one runs RG, no one runs storm ravens.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Greyknights are not actually as bad as marines.

Blood of Kittens 8th edition tournament results compendium.

Marines: 12 results in the Top 3.
GK: 1 result that came 2nd.

At least try and have some sort of logical argument when you claim nonsense like this.

the_scotsman wrote:

The eldar one is infinitely better in so far as no player with knowledge of marine stratagems would deep strike next to a big shooting unit. They will just deep strike farther away or deep strike withing 12 inches of a unit that can't hurt them much but out of 12 inch from anything that can hurt them. The eldar one has 0 counterplay - except coming in out of line of site which often means doing 0 damage that turn.

Or focusing fire on a threatening unit standing right next to a farseer and killing them before dropping down. Or killing the farseer before dropping down. Or maybe having multiple units deep striking, and holding onto the one that you know your opponent is going to want to shoot, and then just opting not to drop the juicy unit at the end of all your other drops - Forewarning has to be used IMMEDIATELY after a unit drops down after all, if your opponent opts not to shoot the drop pod because he's waiting for the unit of Terminators, and instead of dropping the terminators you declare a shooting attack or psychic test, then it's no longer "Immediately after a unit deep strikes" and he can't retroactively go back and shoot the drop pod. Or, as you said, dropping somewhere out of LOS of the firing unit. I like that you have the same mentality of most video game players when you use the phrase "literally zero counterplay" - that if there isn't a large, red, glowing button labeled "OBVIOUS WEAKNESS" that you can slap to stop a counter from working, then there is LITERALLY nothing you can do against it. Sometimes the counterplay is "don't be in a situation where your opponent can trigger the stratagem".



"Wait so you're saying that the strength of one character / army list may in fact exist independently of two statistics taken completely out of context?"
are you saying that the eldar can't use the strategem as well as the marines could? And so the marines strategem was double nerfed to prevent them from abusing it. When in fact - there is no better unit in the game to use this strategem on other than a unit of dark reapers?

No better unit in the game. Not a single better unit. You know that theoretically you could have a superheavy use this stratagem, right? Or a whole unit of double-firing dakkastelans? I'm not saying Dark Reapers aren't a powerful unit, they absolutely are, but come on. If you want people to take what you say seriously, avoid this kind of stupid hyperbole.

10 man squad with all with reaper-launchers...what unit in this game actually has more firepower than that?

 Mr Morden wrote:


Some armies are still without Codexes - given that almost every codex so far has been some variety of Marines it is to be hoped that Chapter Approved does not waste even more time buffing the already codex blessed who already have their widespread points drops, free artefacts, unique stratagems, Chapter tactics etc etc.

Leave Chapter Approved to those who are still languishing in the land of the Index and might be still waiting 3, 6 months or even longer (never) for an actual dex.

On you specifics: If the tanks are in your own words "Competitive" well then they don't need further boosts do they?

I want one page in Chapter Approved, to cover all the SM/CSM Legions and Chapters. I want it to provide Legion and Chapter traits to the rest of the army in some regard. Most of them can be flat out added to the other units in the army without issue, in a couple cases they would have to be tweaked to be applicable to vehicles, that's it. Index lists can have the entire rest of the book as far as I'm concerned. Apparently we're going to get some vehicle customization rules also, I'm sure nothing broken will come of that.

I don't really have a problem with the Eldar having a better anti-DS stratagem, it's fluffy, they have the oracular powers of the Farseers, rock on.

The fact that marines forget everything they learned in basic training the moment they strap on a seatbelt is dumb.

Anyhow, it seems this is devolving into tangent fest when people are arguing Predator vs LRBT, I think I saw one Predator at SCO, maybe, that should really tell you all you need to know. Then again, I have a low opinion of the Predator within the context of SM/CSM armies, transport > tank imho in this edition.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The eldar one is infinitely better in so far as no player with knowledge of marine stratagems would deep strike next to a big shooting unit. They will just deep strike farther away or deep strike withing 12 inches of a unit that can't hurt them much but out of 12 inch from anything that can hurt them. The eldar one has 0 counterplay - except coming in out of line of site which often means doing 0 damage that turn.

Or focusing fire on a threatening unit standing right next to a farseer and killing them before dropping down. Or killing the farseer before dropping down. Or maybe having multiple units deep striking, and holding onto the one that you know your opponent is going to want to shoot, and then just opting not to drop the juicy unit at the end of all your other drops - Forewarning has to be used IMMEDIATELY after a unit drops down after all, if your opponent opts not to shoot the drop pod because he's waiting for the unit of Terminators, and instead of dropping the terminators you declare a shooting attack or psychic test, then it's no longer "Immediately after a unit deep strikes" and he can't retroactively go back and shoot the drop pod. Or, as you said, dropping somewhere out of LOS of the firing unit. I like that you have the same mentality of most video game players when you use the phrase "literally zero counterplay" - that if there isn't a large, red, glowing button labeled "OBVIOUS WEAKNESS" that you can slap to stop a counter from working, then there is LITERALLY nothing you can do against it. Sometimes the counterplay is "don't be in a situation where your opponent can trigger the stratagem".



"Wait so you're saying that the strength of one character / army list may in fact exist independently of two statistics taken completely out of context?"
are you saying that the eldar can't use the strategem as well as the marines could? And so the marines strategem was double nerfed to prevent them from abusing it. When in fact - there is no better unit in the game to use this strategem on other than a unit of dark reapers?

No better unit in the game. Not a single better unit. You know that theoretically you could have a superheavy use this stratagem, right? Or a whole unit of double-firing dakkastelans? I'm not saying Dark Reapers aren't a powerful unit, they absolutely are, but come on. If you want people to take what you say seriously, avoid this kind of stupid hyperbole.

10 man squad with all with reaper-launchers...what unit in this game actually has more firepower than that?

Baneblade with max sponsons.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The eldar one is infinitely better in so far as no player with knowledge of marine stratagems would deep strike next to a big shooting unit. They will just deep strike farther away or deep strike withing 12 inches of a unit that can't hurt them much but out of 12 inch from anything that can hurt them. The eldar one has 0 counterplay - except coming in out of line of site which often means doing 0 damage that turn.

Or focusing fire on a threatening unit standing right next to a farseer and killing them before dropping down. Or killing the farseer before dropping down. Or maybe having multiple units deep striking, and holding onto the one that you know your opponent is going to want to shoot, and then just opting not to drop the juicy unit at the end of all your other drops - Forewarning has to be used IMMEDIATELY after a unit drops down after all, if your opponent opts not to shoot the drop pod because he's waiting for the unit of Terminators, and instead of dropping the terminators you declare a shooting attack or psychic test, then it's no longer "Immediately after a unit deep strikes" and he can't retroactively go back and shoot the drop pod. Or, as you said, dropping somewhere out of LOS of the firing unit. I like that you have the same mentality of most video game players when you use the phrase "literally zero counterplay" - that if there isn't a large, red, glowing button labeled "OBVIOUS WEAKNESS" that you can slap to stop a counter from working, then there is LITERALLY nothing you can do against it. Sometimes the counterplay is "don't be in a situation where your opponent can trigger the stratagem".



"Wait so you're saying that the strength of one character / army list may in fact exist independently of two statistics taken completely out of context?"
are you saying that the eldar can't use the strategem as well as the marines could? And so the marines strategem was double nerfed to prevent them from abusing it. When in fact - there is no better unit in the game to use this strategem on other than a unit of dark reapers?

No better unit in the game. Not a single better unit. You know that theoretically you could have a superheavy use this stratagem, right? Or a whole unit of double-firing dakkastelans? I'm not saying Dark Reapers aren't a powerful unit, they absolutely are, but come on. If you want people to take what you say seriously, avoid this kind of stupid hyperbole.

10 man squad with all with reaper-launchers...what unit in this game actually has more firepower than that?

Baneblade with max sponsons.

Cool - just start listing off 500+ point lords of war please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No problem - put it on a jetbike and it can move 20 inches every turn. It's spells also have good range. Plus nothing forces you to use the stratagem. Not including a farseer in your army is a pretty dumb idea though. They are are the staple eldar HQ.

Put it on a jetbike and have it masturbate by your Dark Reapers for 3 turns until your opponent is required to bring in their deep-strikers? Yeah, make it even more expensive and have it miss have the game with its 18" range psychic powers. Good plan.

Also, "you aren't forced to use the stratagem" isn't really a good defense.

This is 8th edition...the game is over in 2 turns...what are we talking about 3 turns?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Eldar one, well, it's one use, and you just have to accept you're going to get shot by it. Doesn't affect my thinking at all. It's unavoidable, so may as well just bite the bullet.

The frustration with it is, in my original comment about it, it can nuke an entire GMDK before it even hits the table. I would think that would be an understandably difficult thing to have to accept. The general impression I'm getting is that you need to bring an extra 300 points worth of dreadknight in order to have one land on the table.

Combined with the general lack of terrain on most tournament tables? Has that gotten better? I'm not one to defend the "Space Marines are the worst" theory, but I really do think this one is kind of a problem. It's better than Coteaz was back in the day, and people screamed about him being "gamebreaking".

The Space Marine one: you may think it's worthless and not use it at all! But if you do, then I might be in big trouble. So maybe I'll deep strike outside of 12", and then be outside of that crucial rapid-fire plasma range or completely out of meltagun range. Or maybe I can just take the losses - heck, it may be easier to just target a different unit entirely that can't kill me as well - ah crap, that unit is screened. Well, bugger.

Ta-da! The Space Marine one actually affects the opponents planning and psychology more than the eldar one. It can have a meaningful effect on the opponent's thinking and decision loop without costing any CP at all!

IIRC, a squad of 10 tac marines using this has a 63% chance of killing 2-4 T3 4+ units. The SM one hurts some things, and someone could let that get in their head, but at the end of the day I'm struggling to think of a situation you could actually wipe out an entire unit with literally zero recourse. Maybe devastators with plasma cannons or something.

This isn't really affecting psychology at the table, but the eldar one affect psychology before the game even starts.

I think that the core of Xenomancer's argument is pretty accurate to be fair. Power Creep is a serious and very real problem for the balance of the game, and many codices have been balancing power around certain units and characters to make the armies competitive (such as Gulliman with marines, Celestine with sisters, Mortarion for Deathguard etc).

The whole design behind the codices, in fact, is entirely power creeping them in to line with the previous codices. This has been concerning me for a while. None of my armies have codices out yet, but I was hoping that having a codex wouldn't make your army so much more powerful than other non-codex armies.

the_scotsman wrote:

Or focusing fire on a threatening unit standing right next to a farseer and killing them before dropping down. Or killing the farseer before dropping down. Or maybe having multiple units deep striking, and holding onto the one that you know your opponent is going to want to shoot, and then just opting not to drop the juicy unit at the end of all your other drops - Forewarning has to be used IMMEDIATELY after a unit drops down after all, if your opponent opts not to shoot the drop pod because he's waiting for the unit of Terminators, and instead of dropping the terminators you declare a shooting attack or psychic test, then it's no longer "Immediately after a unit deep strikes" and he can't retroactively go back and shoot the drop pod. Or, as you said, dropping somewhere out of LOS of the firing unit. I like that you have the same mentality of most video game players when you use the phrase "literally zero counterplay" - that if there isn't a large, red, glowing button labeled "OBVIOUS WEAKNESS" that you can slap to stop a counter from working, then there is LITERALLY nothing you can do against it. Sometimes the counterplay is "don't be in a situation where your opponent can trigger the stratagem".

It's hard to take "just focus fire" seriously when one is a character, either can fairly trivially have a -2 to hit, and, unless I'm misunderstanding, can get at least a -3 if they really need to. Invisibility is back, you know.

Your deep-strike chicken idea is pretty awesome though. Could definitely backfire pretty hard though. One of the things I've always understood about the game, especially in the context of GK is "don't come in piecemeal."